Prototype XJ-1 (Gang War of Echovald) "Get behind something!"

[SnackParty.3178]

Okay, so this seems to be an ongoing trap for many players. Kestrel Ayumi will warn players to get behind something. Between her warning and one shot clap, there's only a few short seconds, leaving players who can't find trash out in the open and rip to them. 

There's a trick for seeing the trash early. XJ-7 starts it's "hand clap" on 3rd part. First, make sure camera is panned out to see entire boss and most of field. The boss will extend it's arm then pound it's fist straight down. (It's technically a grab, looks like fist.) Once hand lifts, trash will be under, giving players a chance to work there way over before warning. Just make sure to keep dpsing while gravitating close to the trash.

Good luck! Maybe this will reduce dead player count 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼.

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Allen.9310

[Xerxez.7361]

I notice most players figure this out by the 2nd or 3rd Down/Death, but still ignore the mechanic entirely because

A) They still get credit whether they help or not

B) High Latency

C) Assume someone will always pick them up because it's Open World.

 

[Linken.6345]

34 minutes ago, Xerxez.7361 said:

I notice most players figure this out by the 2nd or 3rd Down/Death, but still ignore the mechanic entirely because

A) They still get credit whether they help or not

B) High Latency

C) Assume someone will always pick them up because it's Open World.

 

Agree I also find it help alot to just type HIDE in map chat after the first slam.

Makes more people react and start looking for the scrap pile.

[mythical.6315]

Well if players paid attention to the mechanics as they’re introduced over the entire duration of the fight, they wouldn’t have issues. It’s also fairly easy to tell when you’ll need to move as the boss always precedes it with the attack that pulls players in. 

I decided to edit the post and add that the pull attack is in the final phase.  He always slams each fist which leaves behind the object to get behind.

Edited April 10, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Redfeather.6401]

I'll be 'downvoted' but the fight shines a spotlight on how gw2 does not put a reign on behaviours and effects that impede combat awareness. The design should be to facilitate combat awareness not obscure it.

GW2 | Prototype XJ-1 Echovalds World Boss FULL HD 2k res Ultra Settings - YouTube

A boss fight should have some kind of trigger code that disables all "other player" effects. To keep the screen clean and focused on relevant information.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Redfeather.6401

[Zacchary.6183]

To make this easier, I tell in map and say to watch for side slam attacks and move towards the fists. Because thats when the debris appears.

[Xerxez.7361]

2 hours ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

I'll be 'downvoted' but the fight shines a spotlight on how gw2 does not put a reign on behaviours and effects that impede combat awareness. The design should be to facilitate combat awareness not obscure it.

GW2 | Prototype XJ-1 Echovalds World Boss FULL HD 2k res Ultra Settings - YouTube

A boss fight should have some kind of trigger code that disables all "other player" effects. To keep the screen clean and focused on relevant information.

 

I still don't know where in that video the player effects blocked out any of the mechanics. All the mechanics take place away from the boss and were clearly televised in that video the player just chose to ignore them.

[mythical.6315]

I'm not sure what Redfeather is complaining about.  Where the player needs to stand is a bright light blue circle that stands out even with the entire zerg standing on it.  There's also a giant red arrow above it pointing down.

[Redfeather.6401]

Yeah pretend I have no clue what I'm talking about. I had a career in design for half my life. I'm trying to help the game be more accessible to people in all my posts and all my posts get attacked like I'm some moron off the streets trying to cripple the game. I give up.

[Linken.6345]

7 minutes ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

Yeah pretend I have no clue what I'm talking about. I had a career in design for half my life. I'm trying to help the game be more accessible to people in all my posts and all my posts get attacked like I'm some moron off the streets trying to cripple the game. I give up.

That video you linked got a player staying as far away from the boss as possible ignoring 90% of the mechanics.

Only getting downed or killed by the slams, dont read chat at all were players shout out were to stand and even at the time you highlighted they accidently stand at the right spot with other people only to run out to shoot again even after having seen 4-5 times before.

So yea this is issue of a player constantly going down to 1 single mechanic and not trying to figure out why just keep the expletives going each time the boss arch its back with arm streched wide then make a big clap that downs him.

Dont read either npc or player chatter that say get behind something or ove here and a nice blue circle denoting that something.

[AliamRationem.5172]

42 minutes ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

Yeah pretend I have no clue what I'm talking about. I had a career in design for half my life. I'm trying to help the game be more accessible to people in all my posts and all my posts get attacked like I'm some moron off the streets trying to cripple the game. I give up.

I don't think you do know what you're talking about.  The video you linked clearly shows a player who doesn't understand the mechanics.  Visual noise had nothing to do with this.

The issue with this fight is that the auditory and visual cues immediately preceding the kill shot are not what you should be looking for.  It's the attack preceding the kill shot that you need to watch for.  This is where the boss places the junk piles which players must hide behind on the following attack.  If you wait for the Tengu to call out and the blue circles indicating safe zones to appear, you may not be in position to reach them in time.

Fortunately, once you know which attack you're looking for, it's quite obvious and visual noise should be a non-factor.  The boss slams its hands down, bisecting the entire field with its massive arms.  This is where the junk piles are placed and no amount of visual noise could cause you to miss it if you know to look for it.  Once you're aware that this precedes the cues for the kill shot, it's a simple matter of positioning yourself close enough to the piles that you can walk to them in time to avoid being killed.

[Khisanth.2948]

I found paying attention to anything besides the AoE indicator for the stuff to stand behind to be a complete waste of time. After that the fight becomes pretty boring though.

[Freya.9075]

Most players learn this in a few deaths. The issue is open world will always have players ignoring mechanics and just stand there no matter what. Even without visual  clutter. 

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

Yeah pretend I have no clue what I'm talking about. I had a career in design for half my life. I'm trying to help the game be more accessible to people in all my posts and all my posts get attacked like I'm some moron off the streets trying to cripple the game. I give up.

All of that experience you have doesn't matter if the problem you're claiming doesn't actually exist.  The only threat to players is the clap and it's clearly visible where they need to stand even with other players and their effects.  The attack pattern is also very predictable so you will always know when the attack is coming up.

Let's critique the video that you linked.  For the first clap, you can see that the blue circle for the safe spot was clearly visible.  The player died because they completely ignored it for some reason.  They avoid the second clap due to staying at max range, not participating in the fight, and using the zip line just before the clap.  Usually there's a third clap but the boss died before it in this case.

Your video shows no design or visual issues.  All it shows is a player who barely participated in that phase of the boss fight and probably doesn't understand the mechanic.

Edited April 10, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Veprovina.4876]

As most others have said, the window is too short to account for latency, and even if you are left away from the areas, you can't just walk to them as soon as Ayumi says so, there's not enough time, you need to use movement skills. Also, amid all the visual noise, i honestly rarely see where the "junk pile" i'm supposed to hide behind is, and on medium, it all blends together with the same exact texture of the floor, and circles sometimes don't render. So what am i (or anyone else with this issue) supposed to do if there is no tell? I mean, sure, you hear Ayumi and can see the golem do the thing, but then what? Where did the cover spawn? You can't tell, 5 different skills from 5 different classes are rendering right in front of my screen, the cover looks like ground, circle didn't render in time since it appeared... Bam, dead in 2 seconds since Ayumi told you to hide.

 

So it's less of a l2p issue, and more "needs better tells" issue.

I'm surprised Anet still designs such mechanics cause i know they know their engine limitations, and there's still a bug where after loading in a map you can't use a mount for like a minute before everything renders, and they know that in all the visual noise they themselves made - players might not have the luxury to react as fast as they want us.

 

Still... WIth beetle, the way back is minimal, and i have yet to see the event fail because of dead players from this mechanic... 

But my point is, don't always go blaming the players, you don't know everyone. 

Someone might not have the reaction time necessary to do it even in the best of circumstances.

Anet should account for at least some of that when designing events, if not people's reaction times, then people's reaction times plus the visual noise, plus their engine loading stuff in.

[Redfeather.6401]

6 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

All of that experience you have doesn't matter if the problem you're claiming doesn't actually exist.  The only threat to players is the clap and it's clearly visible where they need to stand even with other players and their effects.  The attack pattern is also very predictable so you will always know when the attack is coming up.

Let's critique the video that you linked.  For the first clap, you can see that the blue circle for the safe spot was clearly visible.  The player died because they completely ignored it for some reason.  They avoid the second clap due to staying at max range, not participating in the fight, and using the zip line just before the clap.  Usually there's a third clap but the boss died before it in this case.

Your video shows no design or visual issues.  All it shows is a player who barely participated in that phase of the boss fight and probably doesn't understand the mechanic.

It's not my video. It's a video with a ton of people with gw2's "magic body odour" covering the middle of the screen. It's so distracting I suggested the boss fights trigger a code to hide 'other player' effects to increase the accessibility of combat awareness in players who need it. I could not possibly predict the video would be so scrutinized and overanalyzed by people who already know what to look for and have no sympathy for players who are struggling amidst the backdrop of GW2's "magic body odour" brigade.

[Nazarick.9653]

24 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

As most others have said, the window is too short to account for latency, and even if you are left away from the areas, you can't just walk to them as soon as Ayumi says so, there's not enough time, you need to use movement skills. Also, amid all the visual noise, i honestly rarely see where the "junk pile" i'm supposed to hide behind is, and on medium, it all blends together with the same exact texture of the floor, and circles sometimes don't render. So what am i (or anyone else with this issue) supposed to do if there is no tell? I mean, sure, you hear Ayumi and can see the golem do the thing, but then what? Where did the cover spawn? You can't tell, 5 different skills from 5 different classes are rendering right in front of my screen, the cover looks like ground, circle didn't render in time since it appeared... Bam, dead in 2 seconds since Ayumi told you to hide.

 

So it's less of a l2p issue, and more "needs better tells" issue.

I'm surprised Anet still designs such mechanics cause i know they know their engine limitations, and there's still a bug where after loading in a map you can't use a mount for like a minute before everything renders, and they know that in all the visual noise they themselves made - players might not have the luxury to react as fast as they want us.

 

Still... WIth beetle, the way back is minimal, and i have yet to see the event fail because of dead players from this mechanic... 

But my point is, don't always go blaming the players, you don't know everyone. 

Someone might not have the reaction time necessary to do it even in the best of circumstances.

Anet should account for at least some of that when designing events, if not people's reaction times, then people's reaction times plus the visual noise, plus their engine loading stuff in.

 

It's exactly this...yet another product of Anet designing encounters with the best latency/framerates, expecting the best from everyone without those and ofc their refusal to let us get rid of other player's spell effects. (not everyone wants to see infusions and combo fields, we just want to see the @#£%* red circles to dodge out of, and be able to do so without wading through fps treacle caused by everyone else)

 

Just like with Boneskinner...the only way to see the boss raising his arm is to zoom right out so you can't see yourself or the constant circles of instant death.  But with this boss being so big, you also have to tilt the camera up - how do all the raiders expect us to do that and THEN change the view back so we can run to the white spot that's at the opposite end of the area? And not only that - if you're a bit late in reaching the next area when he moves (easy to happen with stuck-in-combat and low fps), you're liable to get splattered without even a white text warning.

(the only possible caveat here is that there's no reason to move other than that, whereas Boneskinner is the opposite)

 

Poor design, poor design...if you're going to add raid mechanics to bosses, at least make it fairer for those without perfect specs.

 

(for the record, I play a melee class/build with low fps. I also used to raid a lot in WoW, and it was never this bad)

[Vaen.2605]

Once you learn to watch for the trash piles forming from the previous attack, this one is perfectly fine imo.  People will still get hit, rez them if you can, either way you have plenty of time to down the boss.

[mythical.6315]

3 hours ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

It's not my video. It's a video with a ton of people with gw2's "magic body odour" covering the middle of the screen. It's so distracting I suggested the boss fights trigger a code to hide 'other player' effects to increase the accessibility of combat awareness in players who need it. I could not possibly predict the video would be so scrutinized and overanalyzed by people who already know what to look for and have no sympathy for players who are struggling amidst the backdrop of GW2's "magic body odour" brigade.

It’s a non issue for this fight as the video you linked showed. 

[Bish.8627]

I still nightly see half a zerg of people get flattened by Karka Queens rolly polly. I think frames is another thing. I remember years ago on a not so great PC it being harder to telegraph because the game was a power point presentation for me. But 2 PC's since its never been a problem as I have at least 30-60 frames on those. Some people are still on lesser capable hardware, couple with all the players and abilities going off and they may not even see it coming.

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

15 hours ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

I'll be 'downvoted' but the fight shines a spotlight on how gw2 does not put a reign on behaviours and effects that impede combat awareness. The design should be to facilitate combat awareness not obscure it.

GW2 | Prototype XJ-1 Echovalds World Boss FULL HD 2k res Ultra Settings - YouTube

A boss fight should have some kind of trigger code that disables all "other player" effects. To keep the screen clean and focused on relevant information.

I agree, visual noise needs to be toned down.

For people who knows the mechanics, they can filter it and keep track of junk pile but When you don't know mechanics, you have no idea what you should be looking at in all that visual noise.

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

As most others have said, the window is too short to account for latency, and even if you are left away from the areas, you can't just walk to them as soon as Ayumi says so, there's not enough time, you need to use movement skills. Also, amid all the visual noise, i honestly rarely see where the "junk pile" i'm supposed to hide behind is, and on medium, it all blends together with the same exact texture of the floor, and circles sometimes don't render. So what am i (or anyone else with this issue) supposed to do if there is no tell? I mean, sure, you hear Ayumi and can see the golem do the thing, but then what? Where did the cover spawn? You can't tell, 5 different skills from 5 different classes are rendering right in front of my screen, the cover looks like ground, circle didn't render in time since it appeared... Bam, dead in 2 seconds since Ayumi told you to hide.

 

So it's less of a l2p issue, and more "needs better tells" issue.

I'm surprised Anet still designs such mechanics cause i know they know their engine limitations, and there's still a bug where after loading in a map you can't use a mount for like a minute before everything renders, and they know that in all the visual noise they themselves made - players might not have the luxury to react as fast as they want us.

 

Still... WIth beetle, the way back is minimal, and i have yet to see the event fail because of dead players from this mechanic... 

But my point is, don't always go blaming the players, you don't know everyone. 

Someone might not have the reaction time necessary to do it even in the best of circumstances.

Anet should account for at least some of that when designing events, if not people's reaction times, then people's reaction times plus the visual noise, plus their engine loading stuff in.

Are you saying you can't see the boss drop its gigantic arm across the entire field?  Just watch for that to know where the junk piles are placed.  Then position yourself close to them so when the call comes you don't need to look for anything or use movement skills.

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, Nazarick.9653 said:

 

It's exactly this...yet another product of Anet designing encounters with the best latency/framerates, expecting the best from everyone without those and ofc their refusal to let us get rid of other player's spell effects. (not everyone wants to see infusions and combo fields, we just want to see the @#£%* red circles to dodge out of, and be able to do so without wading through fps treacle caused by everyone else)

 

Just like with Boneskinner...the only way to see the boss raising his arm is to zoom right out so you can't see yourself or the constant circles of instant death.  But with this boss being so big, you also have to tilt the camera up - how do all the raiders expect us to do that and THEN change the view back so we can run to the white spot that's at the opposite end of the area? And not only that - if you're a bit late in reaching the next area when he moves (easy to happen with stuck-in-combat and low fps), you're liable to get splattered without even a white text warning.

(the only possible caveat here is that there's no reason to move other than that, whereas Boneskinner is the opposite)

 

Poor design, poor design...if you're going to add raid mechanics to bosses, at least make it fairer for those without perfect specs.

 

(for the record, I play a melee class/build with low fps. I also used to raid a lot in WoW, and it was never this bad)

No, it isn't.  Please just read and listen. If you are waiting for the Tengu to call and blue circles to appear you're doing it wrong. 

[Linken.6345]

20 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Are you saying you can't see the boss drop its gigantic arm across the entire field?  Just watch for that to know where the junk piles are placed.  Then position yourself close to them so when the call comes you don't need to look for anything or use movement skills.

Yea was about to reply to this aswell, you watch were the first arm slam down walk over to it and then side step behind pile when npc say get behind something.

[Khisanth.2948]

5 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

As most others have said, the window is too short to account for latency

From the video ... the blue circle shows up at 7:17, audio cue at 7:18, the hit happens at 7:22. That is 4/5s to respond which is much longer than a lot of other telegraphed attacks.

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Are you saying you can't see the boss drop its gigantic arm across the entire field?  Just watch for that to know where the junk piles are placed.  Then position yourself close to them so when the call comes you don't need to look for anything or use movement skills.

Actually yes. Trying to follow that advice the first time was what got me kill multiple times.

Simply looking out for the blue/white circles worked out much better. Only got hit once and that was from overcommitting on a ress.