Alternative path for PVE Legendary Armor

[Gibson.4036]

2 minutes ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Just one question.

How would you implement it financially and technically so that everyone could earn everything they wanted without it becoming boring and unfair?

That's a very general question, so a very general answer is that, ideally, there'd be comparable paths in time and effort for each of the major subgroups of the player base. There would be room for trading one for the other, time and effort, so one subgroup might have to spend more effort over a shorter time than another.

I think you could even scale to difficulty, instead of hard locking to difficulty. Let Raids and CM strikes get currencies fastest, strikes and fractals less fast, and open world content slowest. That way there is encouragement to progress up the difficulty ladder, but not outright gating against playing at the level you most enjoy.

What those things might look like in any particular case would be something for game designers to gauge and modify as they go.

[Fuchslein.8639]

3 minutes ago, Nakasz.5471 said:

I think people asking for this didn't realize that open world already has 2 trinkets, 1 amulet and ALL precursor collections tied to this game mode.

Another point, I noticed that the collection suggestions for this armor don't even mention raid, strikes or even fractal. So I wonder, why do you want legendary armor? The QoL that the armor gives you is precisely designed for this type of content.

I agree with the idea of another legendary armor in pve, however the collection should be challenging, including at least cm strikes or cm fractals.

And there it is again. Someone makes an realistic point about getting legy armor in ow and it gets downvoted under a Minute. Perfect xD.

[blp.3489]

5 minutes ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Just one question.

How would you implement it financially and technically so that everyone could earn everything they wanted without it becoming boring and unfair?

Just have one or more currencies that allow players to earn anything they want while playing the game mode they want by performing tasks that require similar levels of time and effort.

[Gibson.4036]

5 minutes ago, Nakasz.5471 said:

Another point, I noticed that the collection suggestions for this armor don't even mention raid, strikes or even fractal. So I wonder, why do you want legendary armor? The QoL that the armor gives you is precisely designed for this type of content.

How so?

Stat and upgrade changing would be very useful for open world in order to run support in a meta, switch to a DPS farming build, swap to a survival Champ solo build, and pick yourself up and dust yourself off after ArenaNet swings the nerf hammer at your current profession.

[Fuchslein.8639]

6 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

That's a very general question, so a very general answer is that, ideally, there'd be comparable paths in time and effort for each of the major subgroups of the player base. There would be room for trading one for the other, time and effort, so one subgroup might have to spend more effort over a shorter time than another.

I think you could even scale to difficulty, instead of hard locking to difficulty. Let Raids and CM strikes get currencies fastest, strikes and fractals less fast, and open world content slowest. That way there is encouragement to progress up the difficulty ladder, but not outright gating against playing at the level you most enjoy.

What those things might look like in any particular case would be something for game designers to gauge and modify as they go.

And you think anet could desing and finanve such an complex System? You think any game can desing such an complex System whitout anyone feeling left out in "not doing stuff they sont like, for rewards thry want" ?

I mean, im with you. This would be perfect. But i also wish war, hunger and cruelty would not exist. It's an easy concept in my head, but rather hard to get set in stone.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[Gibson.4036]

3 minutes ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

And there it is again. Someone makes an realistic point about getting legy armor in ow and it gets downvoted under a Minute. Perfect xD.

Welcome to the forums.

Almost every post, no matter how straightforward and non-controversial, is subject to the "confused" emoji.

[SlayerXX.7138]

Right now there is no pretext for getting ascended gear with open world currency. Which would help with the comparison as you could compare the price of ascended gear from open world with the price of ascended gear in PvP and WvW. Only point of reference is an aqua breather head gear(ascended head gear that costs 6k unbound magic and 500 Winterberries). That would set the cost of a precursor round 6k unbound magic and 500 Winterberry's(more for a coat). You probably would need to introduce some 3rd "time gated" currency to make a comparison to existing Legendary gear and ensure Anet actually implements it. Lets say Jumping coins(its an example could be something else don't do much OW Stuff). You gain 1 per week per puzzle. If you are the jumping god you get them together fast, if you have one arm you press the Mesmer Portal 7 times a week and slowly build up.  Lets say A mystic forge recipe for open world armor would look something like. Replace the berries and unbound magic with a currency of your choice but equal value.

 

1. Gift of exploration
2. Gift of Open world Power 
   1. 50 Jump coins
   2. Eldritch Scroll
   3. 50 obsidian shards
   4. Cube of Stabilized Dark Energy
3. Gift of Open World Dedication
   1. 35 Jump coins
   2. Glob of Condensed Spirit Energy
   3. Glob of Berries(1200Berries)
   4. Star of unbound magic(24k unbound magic)
4. Precursor

Unbound magic and Berries are used cause Breather is the only thing I have to compare.  But Open world legendary armor should look something like that, obviously with berries and unbound magic replaced with more up to date currency of equal value. That is to much work for the open world crowd right? Cause it checks all the boxes. It is fair. It isn't skilled depended. You can keep doing what you want while working to the Legendary.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Nakasz.5471]

15 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

How so?

Stat and upgrade changing would be very useful for open world in order to run support in a meta, switch to a DPS farming build, swap to a survival Champ solo build, and pick yourself up and dust yourself off after ArenaNet swings the nerf hammer at your current profession.

You don't necessarily need to change builds for this. The only situation where I see that you really need to change the build is in the DE meta (to adapt to what your group needs).

See, I believe another legendary armor from pve is needed. Many people are afraid to start in raids (when I started, I was very afraid too) and they have this armor locked.

However, I think that other challenges (challenges, and not completing the map, this is basically time spending) even if they are of a lower level, would be interesting. I could think of fractal cm or - at the very least - fractal t4. Or even the cm strikes.

Also noticed that some people complained that in pvp and wvw you don't necessarily need to win to progress in armor. I think an interesting solution to this would be to add the sale of Legendary Insight (exchange) with Gleena, using Magnetite Shard or Gaeting Crystal. Keep in mind that the lower the boss's remaining health in the raid, and you wipe, the higher your magnetite shard or gaeting crystal reward.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Nakasz.5471

[Laken.9018]

Legendary Armor needs to be decoupled from raids on the PVE front.
The reality is the majority of the player base don't want to do raids, ANET have clarified this in the past. They have the stats and stated that the content type was not financially viable. Thats why we got Strikes.

I don't know what form the new grind needs to take. That's up to a system designer and my gut says whatever takes it place will likely be a lot of currency and gold farming but honestly if we took Legendary Armor out of Raids. I think a lot of the hostility to the raid community would vanish as well and they can go back to enjoying the content without players who don't really want to do that content type being forced into it.


 

[TehOtaku.9587]

First of all I am not that opposed to say that Legendary Insights should not be tradeable... However I honestly dont think that your approach is a good way beacause 

A) For what in the world besides Fractals and maybe Strikes do you need legendary Armor... you most likely have one build for Open World content and for that one or 2 sets of ascended armor is in my oppinion enough.

B) I know that Anet tries to appeal to everyone and that most of the people playing GW2 are Open-World Larrys but is it really a good idea to allow players to build something as "prestigious" as legendary armor through an alternative path other than raiding? I mean if ypu take that away why bother with raiding... the gold is as you might now pathetically low and even if you would be able to trade your Insights the market would be flooded and they would i believe worth less than 1 Gold.
C) Regarding the price of Insights if they would be tradeable I believe that it would be an incentive for players to stay away from raiding because the scene is known for toxicity and it would be cheaper to just buy your Insights and it would be not worthwhile to go through the hassle of clearing every week for like 30 Gold extra per week .

D) It is rather hard to get into raiding so if you can just buy your Insights why bother with learning and meeting new people who might yell at you for not knowing what to do. 

 

Overall I dont believe that they should make another path for obtaining legendary armor in PVE besides maybe Strikes if the want to abandon the idea of raids completly because again what is the use of legendary armor besides being able to gear another spec faster for instanced content...?

And another aspect that I think should be looked at is the time you need to build your armor. I think that it is completly okay for the armor to be kind of timegated because it is something that should be awarded for playing the game for a longer time. Why take away the sense of achieving anything just because people need the fast paced experience of an action game. Why take away some grind for high quality items? Why take away the the feeling of finally completing your armor set taht you WORKED for that you did not just buy from the TP...? And why take away the need to look into some other possibilities that the game has to other besides running around in the open world...? 

 

What in my opinon should be done is make Insights into a junk item that you can sell for i dunno 50 Silver to 1 Gold because that would clear some space for long time raiders and it would make raiding a little bit more profitable.

[Cuks.8241]

I have no objection to another pve legendary armour set. My reasoning is a bit different though.

They aren't releasing new raids. The only pve acquisition method shouldnt be in content they no longer develop. Unless they bring in new raids. So from this perspective they should implement new armour from strikes + other pve content they intend to support: combination of strikes, ow and fractals which I hope are not discontinued. Raids should keep the exclusive animated skin though as their legacy.

As for WvW acquisition method. I think its bad and shouldn't be implemented as such in any other mode. I understand why they did it like it is. They dont want the rewards to impact game play patterns of wvw players. Its a sandbox game mode and there is no correct way of playing it. If they implemented some win conditions which would be required for legendary acquisition, certain type of players would be excluded: roamers, gankers, duelist, ppters, gvgers... And they want all of these to be viable non excluded ways of playing the mode, which is good. I don't see a good or balanced solution for this but if someone can find a good proposal, great. 

In general I support winning or beating encounters should be the way to the best gear. Grinding participation only shouldn't be enough.

Pvp acquisition is better because it does promote playing to win (unambiguous win condition). Just griefing for participation will be much slower and you will get so much flak from other players your experience will be miserable, probably will get reported  a lot also. I would even support that wins only award progress and the higher the rank, faster the progress. But if you in general manage to promote play to win it doesnt really matter. 

As for extra LI (ontopic). You cant dump them in the TP at this point. They did add them to strikes now which is actually weird for players that dont raid but play strikes. Even weirder for players that dont own previous expansions. So the best solution would be to add additional rewards you can buy with LI. Cosmetics probably. Or just material bags but this could also lead to huge influx of mats to TP.

[blp.3489]

I've come to realize that there is a segment of people for whom legendary items should be legendary rewards for legendary players.  Then there's another segment who see legendary items a big QOL improvement that they would appreciate being able to obtain without torturing themselves doing long grinds of content they don't enjoy.  Members of these two segments seem to talk past one another to no effect.  Nineteen pages later and people still find it necessary to tell other players that they don't need and shouldn't want the QOL improvements that legendary armor gives.

[SlayerXX.7138]

16 minutes ago, blp.3489 said:

I've come to realize that there is a segment of people for whom legendary items should be legendary rewards for legendary players.  Then there's another segment who see legendary items a big QOL improvement that they would appreciate being able to obtain without torturing themselves doing long grinds of content they don't enjoy.  Members of these two segments seem to talk past one another to no effect.  Nineteen pages later and people still find it necessary to tell other players that they don't need and shouldn't want the QOL improvements that legendary armor gives.

Could people pleas stop lying. Barley any person even opposed the idea. 90% are quite clear. If you want legendary armor you have to put the same effort into it as the rest and then you can have it. And that effort can be purely done in OW barley any person has a Problem with it. But people don't want that.  1 Person even stated he doesn't give f**k, he just wants Armor on top of everything else, fairness be dammed. Being casual doesnt give people a 89% discount on stuff.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Albi.7250

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

3 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Could people pleas stop lying. Barley any person even opposed the idea. 90% are quite clear. If you want legendary armor you have to put the same effort into it as the rest and then you can have it. And that effort can be purely done in OW barley any person has a Problem with it. But people don't want that.  1 Person even stated he doesn't give f**k, he just wants Armor on top of everything else, fairness be dammed. Being casual doesnt give people a 89% discount on stuff.

At this point isn't the thread at throwing ideas around how to make OW Legendary armor or it was just 2-3 comments I saw earlier?

[Erise.5614]

I feel like a lot of people in the conversation deflect without really understanding why themselves.

Focus on cost or duration is just to ridicule the strawman of lazy people or to conveniently ignore. But in the end, the only answer to that question is: It should be an appropriate effort.

Economy and UX designers need to look at internal analytics and make the best decision for the game when a new reward of such a caliber is introduced. The best decision for all kinds of economies. Gold, mats, time.

Lackluster rewards in other areas of the game are not the topic here and do not factor in. Again. It should be appropriate and no one on the forums is gonna figure that out on their own. Nor should ANet listen to anyone who shares any specific number. 

Any discussion about needing legendary armor is just deflecting as well. Literally no one needs legendary armor. The question is whether it is a desirable enough item to increase retention. The ultimate goal of any change should be increased health of the game. In all factors. Especially measured as retention, revenue and player satisfaction. If a new addition to the game increases those it's probably a positive change improving how healthy the game is. (Assuming it's effect is prolonged and not a temporary burst). Any comment or argument not concerned with the health of the game is either in bad faith or naive. 

 

Also, just to point that out. Raids are, by a huge margin, the fastest way to increase account value. It's account bound value but there is no faster way to acquire as much value in as short a time. Which is frankly genius design as there is no progression left afterwards. All remaining rewards can not possibly be about progression. Inflating the, usually already excessive,  liquid currency of those players is not good for the economy. And getting them more used to playing for entertainment, mastery or social reasons instead of rewards is necessary either way to maximize long term retention. Once you don't receive rewards of value from raids anymore there's literally nothing left in the game you can possibly need. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Aravind.9610]

I wouldn't mind Legendary Insights being tradable, but it should be allowed to have a minimum vendor value, like say 5g? That would prevent it from being sold on trading post for less than 6.5g or so making it profitable for raiders. Can even make a tidy profit by selling it for like 10-15g each.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Aravind.9610

[Labjax.2465]

4 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

People want legendary armor for less effort. We know that, no need to repeat. And no need to lie. Don't hide it behind health of the game. No need to accuse people in vague long text. If People want stuff they need to put in the work or need a clear explanation why they deserve it for less effort. People need to stop being dishonest.

Some people do, sure. And some people just want a path they can do in open world because they will never do raids and aren't keen on PvP. No deeper than that.

And if someone does want it for less effort, they don't need to justify themselves to anyone. GW2 is not running on the inherent principles of the universe, it was put together by a team of people with various design goals, mindsets, and worldviews, some of which were probably not fully realized and others were. There's nothing odd about questioning its design that requires serious thought and justification. And that goes for any video game. People are welcome to put serious time and thought into it, but until they are getting paid to do so (which will never happen), it would be absurd to expect them to. It's Anet's job in some part to decipher feedback and learn from it, and making it as easy to follow as possible is a courtesy to them. People definitely don't need to justify or go the extra mile in their feedback for other players, who often have no design experience at all, so they won't tend to understand it on a design level anyway.

I've had to learn my lesson on that too many times on various game forums, that trying to politely talk design in detail can be met with hostility the same as writing one sentence because a lot of people just read it on the level of whether it agrees with how they want the game to be and go no further. Some people talk things like design and health of the game because they are trying to communicate on a level the developers are more familiar with. It's not being dishonest. It's trying to make a case for something that goes beyond personal whim, which shows care for consequences.

[The Boz.2038]

13 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Right now there is no pretext for getting ascended gear with open world currency. Which would help with the comparison as you could compare the price of ascended gear from open world with the price of ascended gear in PvP and WvW. Only point of reference is an aqua breather head gear(ascended head gear that costs 6k unbound magic and 500 Winterberries). That would set the cost of a precursor round 6k unbound magic and 500 Winterberry's(more for a coat). You probably would need to introduce some 3rd "time gated" currency to make a comparison to existing Legendary gear and ensure Anet actually implements it. Lets say Jumping coins(its an example could be something else don't do much OW Stuff). You gain 1 per week per puzzle. If you are the jumping god you get them together fast, if you have one arm you press the Mesmer Portal 7 times a week and slowly build up.  Lets say A mystic forge recipe for open world armor would look something like. Replace the berries and unbound magic with a currency of your choice but equal value.

 

1. Gift of exploration
2. Gift of Open world Power 
   1. 50 Jump coins
   2. Eldritch Scroll
   3. 50 obsidian shards
   4. Cube of Stabilized Dark Energy
3. Gift of Open World Dedication
   1. 35 Jump coins
   2. Glob of Condensed Spirit Energy
   3. Glob of Berries(1200Berries)
   4. Star of unbound magic(24k unbound magic)
4. Precursor

Unbound magic and Berries are used cause Breather is the only thing I have to compare.  But Open world legendary armor should look something like that, obviously with berries and unbound magic replaced with more up to date currency of equal value. That is to much work for the open world crowd right? Cause it checks all the boxes. It is fair. It isn't skilled depended. You can keep doing what you want while working to the Legendary.

inb4 "but not everyone likes jumping puzzles" or something

[The Boz.2038]

13 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

How so?

Stat and upgrade changing would be very useful for open world in order to run support in a meta, switch to a DPS farming build, swap to a survival Champ solo build, and pick yourself up and dust yourself off after ArenaNet swings the nerf hammer at your current profession.

And exotic stat-change ideas get downvoted and ran away from in this thread faster than you can say "legendary". 
So one can easily conclude that most of the "pro-OW-leggy" people don't want the "neat QOL functionality of exotic stat-change gear". They want Legendary Armor.

inb4 someone tells me I'm strawmanning or something

[The Boz.2038]

4 hours ago, Aravind.9610 said:

I wouldn't mind Legendary Insights being tradable, but it should be allowed to have a minimum vendor value, like say 5g? That would prevent it from being sold on trading post for less than 6.5g or so making it profitable for raiders. Can even make a tidy profit by selling it for like 10-15g each.

Jesus Christ, do not, DO NOT, do this. Equating LI to any amount of instantly tradable gold would... devastate several game modes, lol. It would make Drizzlewood the absolute hard go-to one-stop place for *any* goal in the game. 

[Aravind.9610]

8 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Jesus Christ, do not, DO NOT, do this. Equating LI to any amount of instantly tradable gold would... devastate several game modes, lol. It would make Drizzlewood the absolute hard go-to one-stop place for *any* goal in the game. 

The fact remains that someone actually has to sell the LI, meaning raid content stays relevant, no matter who buys it or doesn't. As it stands there is no reason to do raids since I made all 3 sets of legendary armor. At least this way I can make a profit. And let's face it, raids could use a huge reward boost.

Your view is just narrow-minded.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Aravind.9610

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Aravind.9610 said:

The fact remains that someone actually has to sell the LI, meaning raid content stays relevant, no matter who buys it or doesn't. As it stands there is no reason to do raids since I made all 3 sets of legendary armor. At least this way I can make a profit. And let's face it, raids could use a huge reward boost.

Your view is just narrow-minded.

Selling them to a merchant for, like, a Trophy Shipments or something like that, I could see. But TP-able? Nah, fam.

[Aravind.9610]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Selling them to a merchant for, like, a Trophy Shipments or something like that, I could see. But TP-able? Nah, fam.

Yeah because trophy shipments are worth 5g. Maybe in your dreams. My way offers better rewards and allows raiders to sell at a rate beyond 5g if they choose on TP based on supply and demand

[SlayerXX.7138]

3 minutes ago, Aravind.9610 said:

The fact remains that someone actually has to sell the LI, meaning raid content stays relevant, no matter who buys it or doesn't. As it stands there is no reason to do raids since I made all 3 sets of legendary armor. At least this way I can make a profit. And let's face it, raids could use a huge reward boost.

Your view is just narrow-minded.

Look dude I too would like to liquidize my PvP claim tickets. No need to change the dynamic of the game just to fill our pockets :D.

Just ask for a Vendor or gobbler.

[Aravind.9610]

1 minute ago, Albi.7250 said:

Look dude I too would like to liquidize my PvP claim tickets. No need to change the dynamic of the game just to fill our pockets :D.

Just ask for a Vendor or gobbler.

If you want to then ask for it instead of saying I shouldn't. At the end of the day gold is the best reward the game can offer.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Aravind.9610