New player experience is the games biggest detriment

[Ravenmoon.5318]

It's a personal opinion over many years. Every time I've hyped a buddy (that plays MMOs) they stop playing after an hour or two. The game is super boring after the "new player experience revamp" they made before HOT if I remember correctly. 

 

Of course if you purchase an expack and boost yourself to the good stuff it's better, however, nobody drops money on something that has a trial and that trial isn't fun. 

 

The abilities are boring until lvl 30 and even after that you basically just swing a sword until 80. 

 

I've been with the game since it's headstart, I know what's good about it but there's no chance of doing group content with someone that isn't level 80. Dungeons? Nope. Fractals? Lol nope 😂 . Raids? Nice joke. 

 

Compare this experience with Lost Ark where you can start running dungeons and group content since level 10 with your character kicking kitten all the way through. The game itself (lost ark) is rng kitten but boy is the onboarding experience is awesome until you hit the rng wall 

[Danikat.8537]

Dungeons start at level 30 (Ascalon Catacombs story mode) and more unlock every 5 levels after that. A lot of people prefer to wait until level 80 to play them but it's not required and the game will send you mail when you're the right level for each dungeons story mode to prompt you to try it.

Also as I'm sure you know group content in this game doesn't have to mean instances for just a small group, if you're looking for something to do with friends you could introduce them to world bosses or some of the meta event chains in the core maps. You can also do the personal story with up to 4 other people, even if they're not on the same step.

[Ravenmoon.5318]

Bosses require timers and are a cluster kitten of abilities and are one of the pain points in this game - too much ability SFX to figure out what's going on. Instanced content is way better in pretty much every way. Also, unless you can hit lvl 30 in 2 hours good luck keeping your friends playing until the first dungeon and then find a good joke for the lfg wait time because story mode dungeons are never ran, much like exploration paths which also require level 80

Come on man, I dare you. Create a new free to play account and try to play for few hours. You're going to be running back to your main account. The initial experience is terrible. For a game with such an active and layered combat your hero is super stiff for HOURS 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Ravenmoon.5318

[kharmin.7683]

Ok, so you've complained.  How about some constructive suggestions that you feel would better help the new player experience?  How do you think that you could make it better?

[SinisterSlay.6973]

It would be better if every weapon skill was unlocked immediately rather than level gated. Also give offhand access immediately.

Other than that. I see no issues. You level up so fast it hardly matters.

Wish we could give them map chat but we obviously can't or we'd have gold sellers everywhere.

Edited April 24, 2022 by SinisterSlay.6973

[Ravenmoon.5318]

11 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Ok, so you've complained.  How about some constructive suggestions that you feel would better help the new player experience?  How do you think that you could make it better?

I've shared my experience with Lost Ark and with the same friend with Guild wars 2 and he kept on playing LA solo while I gave up on playing solo, being unable to hook any of my MMO buddies to Gw2 because the NPE is boring. It comes down to hearts and dynamic events (if you're lucky) 

Oh also low level dynamic events are trash, all the high level players that farm nearby one shot everything and you basically need to be lucky to even hit something before it evaporates. They could play with scaling, both of downlevel scale and spawn rate scaling. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Ravenmoon.5318

[Ravenmoon.5318]

35 minutes ago, SinisterSlay.6973 said:

It would be better if every weapon skill was unlocked immediately rather than weapon level gated. Give offhand access immediately.

 

I loved the initial version where you have to "learn" your weapon by actually using it rather than reaching some imaginary level that the developers found fit. Coincidentally your favourite weapon got full unlocks way before whatever level they set up in NPE. Also skill unlocks were based on skill points gathering rather than levels, so you had utilities unlocked early on. Traits as well

Not to mention how fragmented the personal story got and the pieces they cut out because.... reasons. The core story is butchered right now

Better yet, compare the flow of the 18 year old WoW with Gw2. At level 10 you get access to dungeon finder. You get level 10 in like 10 quests 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Ravenmoon.5318

[Holykitten.3064]

I can kind of agree. Core Tyria just seems, well, boring. I don't know if that's because of how long I've been playing the game or what.

After the NPE changes, it's very robotic and lacks a certain depth. You could honestly cut the Act 2 story chapter, and start Act 1 story from Level 2 (instead of level 10) then get straight to the Order story lines (Act 3) at level 15, then possibly getting each Act of the story 5-10 levels sooner than it is. Streamline it more. Add more dynamic events to core Tyria. Bam, story told, levelled quicker, can hop into the good stuff with your mates. There must be a reason a purchase of expansion comes with a Max Level Booster.

It doesn't help that after Gw2 initially released (28 Aug 2012) Living World Season 1 started it's engine. Which any player could play and take part in to gain XP.

Starting with Shadow of The Mad King (22 Oct 2012), The Lost Shores (15 Nov 2012), Wintersday (Dec 14 2012), Flame and Frost - 4 Part (Jan-April 2013)

And so on...

There was actually a lot to do in core Tyria when the Living World was on a faster release cadence.

A lot of the dynamic events of core Tyria were gutted when the champ trains were terrorizing maps, and forget about joining the world boss route unless you already have the necessary waypoints for them, which many new players will not have without spend on the waypoint unlocker, or teleport to friends (Yes some of us have these stockpiled like crazy but a new player will not have that abundance).

Edited April 24, 2022 by Haleydawn.3764
Dates, ty Cedo :D

[AgentMoore.9453]

Well, good news for the OP: ArenaNet agrees with you.

They are currently in A/B testing with things like experience gain and other gameplay elements because they hope to retool the new player experience and launch on Steam later this year (no specific dates provided). Devs agree that the NPE that was added didn't have the desired effect in some areas, so they're looking to repeal/replace parts of it entirely. Let's see how well they do.

[Ravenmoon.5318]

5 minutes ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

Well, good news for the OP: ArenaNet agrees with you.

They are currently in A/B testing with things like experience gain and other gameplay elements because they hope to retool the new player experience and launch on Steam later this year (no specific dates provided). Devs agree that the NPE that was added didn't have the desired effect in some areas, so they're looking to repeal/replace parts of it entirely. Let's see how well they do.

Now if only I could make those guys to give another chance of Gw2 once they're done with that. Took them long enough, I hated NPE ever since it got introduced but since I already had every profession at lvl 80 it didn't bother me as much. Making new accounts to play with my friends recently though has been very boring. And none of them sticked to the game. Which is a pity because it's a really good game.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Ravenmoon.5318

[Danikat.8537]

2 hours ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

Bosses require timers and are a cluster kitten of abilities and are one of the pain points in this game - too much ability SFX to figure out what's going on. Instanced content is way better in pretty much every way. Also, unless you can hit lvl 30 in 2 hours good luck keeping your friends playing until the first dungeon and then find a good joke for the lfg wait time because story mode dungeons are never ran, much like exploration paths which also require level 80

Come on man, I dare you. Create a new free to play account and try to play for few hours. You're going to be running back to your main account. The initial experience is terrible. For a game with such an active and layered combat your hero is super stiff for HOURS 

 

2 hours ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

I've shared my experience with Lost Ark and with the same friend with Guild wars 2 and he kept on playing LA solo while I gave up on playing solo, being unable to hook any of my MMO buddies to Gw2 because the NPE is boring. It comes down to hearts and dynamic events (if you're lucky) 

Oh also low level dynamic events are trash, all the high level players that farm nearby one shot everything and you basically need to be lucky to even hit something before it evaporates. They could play with scaling, both of downlevel scale and spawn rate scaling. 

It sounds like this just isn't the right game for you, sorry, your friend. Yes low level stuff is mostly hearts and dynamic events, but so is the high level stuff. There's a few instanced areas like raids and Fractals but if you restrict yourself to that you're not going to have a lot to do.

Also the first explorable mode dungeon unlocks at level 35 (5 levels after story mode) and you get another one every 10 levels, with the story versions in between. The only one you have to wait for level 80 to play is Arah.

Maybe it's different on the NA servers but I've never had much trouble getting a group together for either story mode or explorable unless it's very late at night or the middle of a week day when most people are at work. Even then it's possible, it just takes longer.

As other people have already said Anet are already looking at XP scaling at lower levels, but I doubt they're going to re-work the entire game, especially not to funnel everyone into little instances sooner, when that's never been a major focus in this game.
 

2 hours ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

Not to mention how fragmented the personal story got and the pieces they cut out because.... reasons. The core story is butchered right now

They fixed the story years ago. It was broken for a few months in 2014, but the piece they cut out was restored and the order was put back to what it was at launch.

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

NPE has been a pox on the game since it was implemented.  It's terrible that is has been allowed to remain this way for so long.

 

I'm glad that they're finally doing *something.   But I hope it will turn out to be a good thing instead of another misstep.  It would be quite beneficial for them to listen to player feedback this time.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

2 hours ago, Haleydawn.3764 said:

I can kind of agree. Core Tyria just seems, well, boring. I don't know if that's because of how long I've been playing the game or what.

After the NPE changes, it's very robotic and lacks a certain depth. You could honestly cut the Act 2 story chapter, and start Act 1 story from Level 2 (instead of level 10) then get straight to the Order story lines (Act 3) at level 15, then possibly getting each Act of the story 5-10 levels sooner than it is. Streamline it more. Add more dynamic events to core Tyria. Bam, story told, levelled quicker, can hop into the good stuff with your mates. There must be a reason a purchase of expansion comes with a Max Level Booster.

It doesn't help that after Gw2 initially released (28 Aug 2012) Living World Season 1 started it's engine. Which any player could play and take part in to gain XP.

Starting with Shadow of The Mad King (22 Oct 2012), The Lost Shores (15 Nov 2012), Wintersday (Dec 14 2012), Flame and Frost - 4 Part (Jan-April 2012)

And so on...

There was actually a lot to do in core Tyria when the Living World was on a faster release cadence.

A lot of the dynamic events of core Tyria were gutted when the champ trains were terrorizing maps, and forget about joining the world boss route unless you already have the necessary waypoints for them, which many new players will not have without spend on the waypoint unlocker, or teleport to friends (Yes some of us have these stockpiled like crazy but a new player will not have that abundance).

I think Flame and Frost was not released before launch.  🤣

[Ashen.2907]

I find the open world content in gw2 to be more enjoyable than that offered by its competitors so having instanced content open up at level 30 rather than level 10 seems ok. That said, I do think that unlocking weapon skills by using the weapon was superior to a level gate. ANet has stated that the new player experience was being revisited for the steam launch so we shall see if they address some of the sticking points.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[Khisanth.2948]

Someone who enjoys grinding mobs prefers a game which has you grinding mobs over a game which discourages it. What a surprise.

2 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

As other people have already said Anet are already looking at XP scaling at lower levels

Which is funny because one of the TERRIBLE!!! NPE changes is to halve the exp requirement for lv1-15. Do people want leveling to be slower? 😂

Also it is more like lv3-15 because you will be lv2 as soon as you exit the first instance and then level 3 after you walking by a PoI or some other map objective.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Khisanth.2948

[Ravenmoon.5318]

13 minutes ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

Someone who enjoys grinding mobs prefers a game which has you grinding mobs over a game which discourages it. What a surprise.

Are you reading any of the posts so far or you are just knee-jerking based on the post title? Nobody is asking to turn the game into "kill 1000 crabs to level up". 

 

Old titles IMHO need to be revised eventually. WoW got revised, everyone got back to lvl 60 because it was reaching insanity for new players. You always have to look for new player's experience. Also those at the end game. The rest have plenty to do in between already. However it has to be done well otherwise it becomes like lineage 2's goddess of destruction which turned the game into basically lineage 2.5 and it is one of the reasons it is a ghost town right now 

 

I also feel that the level 80 boosts were a wrong thing to implement but I guess it was necessary because of how annoying core game has become. Why boost someone that can't use their toon properly and introduce them to elite specs without these people having the slightest grasp of the trait system?!? 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Ravenmoon.5318

[Naxos.2503]

I feel like that feeling is trumped in some way. Obviously for anyone who already -has- a level 80 char with most skills and traits unlocked, restarting feels like a slog. I agree on that standpoint.

What's key here, is that new players dont start with a level 80 char with most skills and traits unlocked, unless they boost.
Hence the new player argument falls short.

To a new player, while getting up the steps might feel slow, and that is a point worth debating, they are also unlocking and discovering their characters along with discovering the game, a feeling that from what I saw and been told, many enjoy. Doing it a second time immediately after is definitely not as enjoyable and that very much makes sense.

There is also something that needs to be differentiated : Levels, and Hero Points. Most players struggle with the latter, not the former, and mislabel it as a leveling problem.

Lastly, for those who Really Really Really want to level Only through combat (That's your prerogative but the game heavily hints that there are better ways to level), what prevents you from doing so while moving around the maps (exploring) and doing golden hearts and events ? Almost all of them include combat.

[Ravenmoon.5318]

13 minutes ago, Naxos.2503 said:

what prevents you from doing so while moving around the maps (exploring) and doing golden hearts and events ? Almost all of them include combat.

It's just insane that the game with the best mount system ever made doesn't offer the option to rent mounts for 1g/hour or something like that or some horse mount even that just let's you go from point a to point b a little faster. It's absolutely irritating seeing everyone just zoom around you and you being unable to get a mount until you reach lvl 80 or skip the game and boost yourself.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Ravenmoon.5318

[Ashen.2907]

8 minutes ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

It's just insane that the game with the best mount system ever made doesn't offer the option to rent mounts for 1g/hour or something like that or some horse mount even that just let's you go from point a to point b a little faster. It's absolutely irritating seeing everyone just zoom around you and you being unable to get a mount until you reach lvl 80 or skip the game and boost yourself.

I think that mounts for new players on new characters would be a disservice. Veterans are zooming  by because they have already seen the world and are on their way to a specific location for an achievement or something of the sort. Bypassing the content in front of them would make the world smaller and less occupied for a newbie.  A new player that gets upset that he does not have the benefit of late game rewards and systems from his first moments of play is going to get upset that he doesn't have legendary weapons at level 3, that he does not have all of the flashiest skins, etc. In other words he is going to be unhappy with any level based game and there is nothing we can do about it.

[Ravenmoon.5318]

There should be a middle ground. The veteran has a all sorts of mounts for free, a newbie would have a slower than raptor horse mount that can't jump for instance that would cost currency, currency that is hard to come by for new heroes .

Gw2 didn't start with mounts but they made the best ones out there and that's a fact.

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Ravenmoon.5318

[Khisanth.2948]

9 minutes ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

Are you reading any of the posts so far or you are just knee-jerking based on the post title? Nobody is asking to turn the game into "kill 1000 crabs to level up". 

You mean the scapegoating of the NPE? NPE wasn't great but what existed  before wasn't some brilliant content you and others are trying to make it out to be.

Lost Ark and GW2 caters to different audiences. One being more appealing to someone than the other only proves this point. The last thing we need is for ANet to go back to trying to appeal to too many audiences.

14 minutes ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

I also feel that the level 80 boosts were a wrong thing to implement but I guess it was necessary because of how annoying core game has become. Why boost someone that can't use their toon properly and introduce them to elite specs without these people having the slightest grasp of the trait system?!? 

People wanted to play thing content they just paid for. 

18 minutes ago, Naxos.2503 said:

To a new player, while getting up the steps might feel slow, and that is a point worth debating, they are also unlocking and discovering their characters along with discovering the game, a feeling that from what I saw and been told, many enjoy.

That is what they should be doing and from the sounds of things, what you did. Unfortunately some people just try to rush through it and learning nothing. That ties in with the complaints about the lv80 boost. Some claim it is terrible because you are level 80 and know nothing about the class! That is true but what is stopping a person from learning on a level 80 character? You can perform the same exact set of actions to learn.  Learning can be done at any level. A bit like real life. You should not stop learning just because you are now X years old ...

[Naxos.2503]

17 minutes ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

It's just insane that the game with the best mount system ever made doesn't offer the option to rent mounts for 1g/hour or something like that or some horse mount even that just let's you go from point a to point b a little faster. It's absolutely irritating seeing everyone just zoom around you and you being unable to get a mount until you reach lvl 80 or skip the game and boost yourself.

So... This is just about mounts ? Mounts were created to change the travel dynamic of players, and the counterpoint was to remove the large majority of Waypoints in all the latter maps. Why would you need to rent a raptor (which wouldn't even fit within the lore as the beasts are not native to tyria) for 1 gold, when you can use waypoints to get Anywhere for a couple of copper at first, and at most 2 silvers at level 80 ? Players who have mounts have earned them, and their presence in core maps doesn't prevent new players from experiencing the core maps due to the way chain events work. NPCs for event Walk there, making a mount speed completely moot, and events are visible to players already in the area, not that player at the other end of the map who will then Rush back to it to participate in it (why ? they can just waypoint if they know the event is active, and most of the time, they dont need to, as they either dont see it, or are already there). 

Players who use mounts in core tyria rarely use them to participate in events. They use the mount speeds to quickly go from Hero point to hero point on new chars, or from ressource nodes to ressource nodes. Events done on the way are incidental.

 

Also a remark on what you said afterward : A vet certainly did -not- get their mount for free. They're tied to either storyline, payment in gold (up to 250 gold for griffon), or achievements. Just having the expansion does Not net you a mount. You could maybe argue that you almost get the raptor for free, but that's a stretch.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Naxos.2503

[Khisanth.2948]

1 hour ago, Naxos.2503 said:

They're tied to either storyline, payment in gold (up to 250 gold for griffon)

and 35g for Skyscale, 32g for Turtle. That is ignoring the value of the other materials used.

[Redfeather.6401]

I have met people in the game who were new and did not like how it felt. You really have to be a very particular kind of player to stick with a series of local chores for NPCs with heart icons over their heads. It lacks any sense of adventure. If the argument is that the genre did that in the past and still does that in some games... 🙁

Edited April 25, 2022 by Redfeather.6401

[mindcircus.1506]

7 hours ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

Oh also low level dynamic events are trash, all the high level players that farm nearby one shot everything and you basically need to be lucky to even hit something before it evaporates. They could play with scaling, both of downlevel scale and spawn rate scaling. 

There is a ton of truth in what you are saying here. I find it really unfortunate that the mob is spamming confused faces on your post.