New player experience is the games biggest detriment

[Kori Jenkins.9017]

On 4/24/2022 at 8:15 AM, kharmin.7683 said:

Ok, so you've complained.  How about some constructive suggestions that you feel would better help the new player experience?  How do you think that you could make it better?

Why should he provide free solutions to Anet when they're the ones being paid?

 

Ultimately, he's right. The initial levels in this game are obscenely boring. The story isn't even consequential and your choices in it don't have any meaningful impact. In a way it reminds me a lot of Wildstar (god help us) in that the leveling grind for a brand new player is so long most are burnt out by the end and just quit. 

On 4/24/2022 at 3:58 PM, mindcircus.1506 said:

There is a ton of truth in what you are saying here. I find it really unfortunate that the mob is spamming confused faces on your post.

That's just how the forums are at this point. People spam confused reactions to show their disapproval, and they usually disapprove of something not because they disagree, but because it offends them to think the game they've put thousands of hours into is flawed in a major way.

 

The same phenomenon used to happen on the WoW forums a lot. People would confuse criticism of the game for criticism of them for playing the game. Essentially "if you're saying this game is bad, you're calling me stupid for continuing to play it." 

[kharmin.7683]

6 hours ago, Kori Jenkins.9017 said:

Why should he provide free solutions to Anet when they're the ones being paid?

 

 

Seriously?

[robertthebard.8150]

10 hours ago, Kori Jenkins.9017 said:

Why should he provide free solutions to Anet when they're the ones being paid?

 

Ultimately, he's right. The initial levels in this game are obscenely boring. The story isn't even consequential and your choices in it don't have any meaningful impact. In a way it reminds me a lot of Wildstar (god help us) in that the leveling grind for a brand new player is so long most are burnt out by the end and just quit. 

That's just how the forums are at this point. People spam confused reactions to show their disapproval, and they usually disapprove of something not because they disagree, but because it offends them to think the game they've put thousands of hours into is flawed in a major way.

 

The same phenomenon used to happen on the WoW forums a lot. People would confuse criticism of the game for criticism of them for playing the game. Essentially "if you're saying this game is bad, you're calling me stupid for continuing to play it." 

Actually, you got a confused emoji from me because you honestly believed that comparing a game on the way to it's 10 year celebration with a game that lasted maybe a year was a good idea.  I disagree.  I also disagree with the entire concept of leveling being a grind.  0 to 80 in a week isn't all that grindy.  Rappelz added 20 levels to their endgame at one point, from 150 to 170, and it took someone playing 8+ hours a day over 2 years to get from 150 to 170.  You could grind an hour, literally grinding, there was no story content to run at that time and get 1% of a level.  Whatever you do, don't die, if you weren't using God Mother Fairy bottles, because you'd lose 4% of your xp.  You let me know when you find anything even remotely similar here, as far as leveling goes...

If "feedback" on the WoW forums was anything like what's presented in this post, I could see why people would disagree.  I mean, comparing a game that died in the first year or so, assuming it made it that long, at least, with a game that's still being actively developed coming up on 10 years old, and is fixing to launch on Steam is pretty confusing, to be honest.  If it were anywhere near as bad as you're implying, it would have died a quick death too.  It hasn't.  So, trying to say that they are in any way similar is confusing, to say the very least, and keep it "forum friendly"...

[Ravenmoon.5318]

On 8/20/2022 at 4:02 PM, robertthebard.8150 said:

You could grind an hour, literally grinding, there was no story content to run at that time and get 1% of a level.  Whatever you do, don't die, if you weren't using God Mother Fairy bottles, because you'd lose 4% of your xp.  You let me know when you find anything even remotely similar here, as far as leveling goes...

Hello, the 90s called and they want you back. 

One of the points I've been trying to make in this thread is that demographics change. See I get the point you're trying to make. I used to play Lineage 2. That game had no coherent story whatsoever so all you did was killing mobs and that's about it. 

That was gaming back then. WoW changed that for better or worse. After that Fortnite made things even simpler. 

I'm sorry to say it but gamers like you and I are in the minority and we're getting fewer and fewer. We are certainly not the demographic that's going to keep a business alive. 

What was acceptable back then isn't acceptable now. There are games that are fun all the time, not just at the endgame. Swtor being a good example from the games that you've listed. I had a blast playing that. I felt powerful all the time. Abilities were solid. Story telling was good and at least at the start my choices mattered.

Gaming in general has changed. And if Gw2 is to last 10 more years, it has to change some things.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Ravenmoon.5318

[IndigoSundown.5419]

On 8/19/2022 at 7:13 PM, Kori Jenkins.9017 said:

Why should he provide free solutions to Anet when they're the ones being paid?

Because if one doesn't, one is leaving it up to ANet -- and that's proven to be unfortunate more times than I can easily count.

 

ANet staff and management are human beings.  While they might have an idea about what a given player would like to see, chances are good they don't.  If you care about the outcome, constructive suggestions are never a bad idea.

[RadiantWolf.2058]

Interesting.

 

I came back to this game recently after leaving it nearly ten years ago. The new player experience isn't perfect but I find it better than what a lot of MMORPGs have.

WoW only recently revamped its new player experience but most of the old zones are still dead. FFXIV is still revamping the new player experience, largely by making it all soloable (including dungeons).

GW2 needs a better LFG/dungeon tool that isn't hiding behind multiple windows but that's about it. Players need a better early intro to instanced content.

[Voyant.1327]

1 hour ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

What was acceptable back then isn't acceptable now. There are games that are fun all the time, not just at the endgame. Swtor being a good example from the games that you've listed. I had a blast playing that. I felt powerful all the time. Abilities were solid. Story telling was good and at least at the start my choices mattered.

Gaming in general has changed. And if Gw2 is to last 10 more years, it has to change some things.

Good take. Coming from Swtor and bringing players over from that it was pretty rough. I basically look at this game as you have to grind excessively to be able to start playing how you want. (Have to get hero points to get the specs, have to get the glider and skip to expansions to get the points, they at least sorta introduced a mount for new players)

Older players will be like "you want everything to just be given" not understanding its just not everyone is into grinding achievements. A lot of players want gameplay or to be engaged. Story missions are awful 9/10 (its rarely actually playing vs. using special action key) A good chunk of MMO vets are simply over leveling due to games using grind as a crutch over content (Swtor took that to a next level with their 10 year and its why a massive amount of lifetime players bailed. Entire 500+ people guilds just gone.)

Bottom line you've gotta jump through hoops just to play your spec at first & beyond OW exploring its not like there's a lot of fun for a new player available. I've had a hard time getting people over the brickwall & by then a lot of em are just burnt out once they finally have a spec they can play. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Voyant.1327

[robertthebard.8150]

40 minutes ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

Hello, the 90s called and they want you back. 

One of the points I've been trying to make in this thread is that demographics change. See I get the point you're trying to make. I used to play Lineage 2. That game had no coherent story whatsoever so all you did was killing mobs and that's about it. 

That was gaming back then. WoW changed that for better or worse. After that Fortnite made things even simpler. 

I'm sorry to say it but gamers like you and I are in the minority and we're getting fewer and fewer. We are certainly not the demographic that's going to keep a business alive. 

What was acceptable back then isn't acceptable now. There are games that are fun all the time, not just at the endgame. Swtor being a good example from the games that you've listed. I had a blast playing that. I felt powerful all the time. Abilities were solid. Story telling was good and at least at the start my choices mattered.

Gaming in general has changed. And if Gw2 is to last 10 more years, it has to change some things.

That's nice, and all, but it doesn't change the fact that the "grind" here simply doesn't exist, as far as leveling goes.  I wasn't playing anything like "dedicated", and still hit 80 on my first toon in the first month.  Probably in the first couple of weeks, frankly, but I've slept a few times since then, so I'm not really sure.  What I am sure about, however, is that it wasn't anything even remotely close to grinding.  I followed the story beats, and did map completion on each map I visited, and I was 80 before I finished the vanilla story.  Nothing in that says "grind" to me.

[Voyant.1327]

12 minutes ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

That's nice, and all, but it doesn't change the fact that the "grind" here simply doesn't exist, as far as leveling goes.  I wasn't playing anything like "dedicated", and still hit 80 on my first toon in the first month.  Probably in the first couple of weeks, frankly, but I've slept a few times since then, so I'm not really sure.  What I am sure about, however, is that it wasn't anything even remotely close to grinding.  I followed the story beats, and did map completion on each map I visited, and I was 80 before I finished the vanilla story.  Nothing in that says "grind" to me.

You've just described it. A lot of players join GW2 want to play a certain spec & if they followed that route it would take them a month of not enjoying to be halfway closer to playing how they want.

Its totally fine if you enjoy that, but that is literally a level grind/story grind. Which a lot of players simply don't enjoy. In Swtor players didn't mind the leveling experience because they started as the class they wanted, the stories were captivating, and the story levels themselves were good & combat centric. 

Here its suffer thru base game or skip ahead and grind some more to have fun. 

[Ravenmoon.5318]

17 minutes ago, Voyant.1327 said:

You've just described it. A lot of players join GW2 want to play a certain spec & if they followed that route it would take them a month of not enjoying to be halfway closer to playing how they want.

Its totally fine if you enjoy that, but that is literally a level grind/story grind. Which a lot of players simply don't enjoy. In Swtor players didn't mind the leveling experience because they started as the class they wanted, the stories were captivating, and the story levels themselves were good & combat centric. 

Here its suffer thru base game or skip ahead and grind some more to have fun. 

The fact that you get lvl 80 boost upon expansion purchase and not just exp booster is more than telling about the state of the game and the confidence the devs have about NPE.

 

At least I'm happy Anet saw one of my solutions, which was to introduce mounts even to F2P players. Just read it in the patchnotes. I'm beyond happy about that one. Baby steps guys. Baby steps.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Ravenmoon.5318

[Voyant.1327]

6 minutes ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

The fact that you get lvl 80 boost upon expansion purchase and not just exp booster is more than telling about the state of the game and the confidence the devs have about NPE.

 

At least I'm happy Anet saw one of my solutions, which was to introduce mounts even to F2P players. Just read it in the patchnotes. I'm beyond happy about that one. Baby steps guys. Baby steps.

Yeah that one was massively important, nothing like literally leaving new players behind in the dust to every single world event lol. 

It won't be easy for them to untangle, but yeah one step at a time. 

[robertthebard.8150]

1 hour ago, Voyant.1327 said:

You've just described it. A lot of players join GW2 want to play a certain spec & if they followed that route it would take them a month of not enjoying to be halfway closer to playing how they want.

Its totally fine if you enjoy that, but that is literally a level grind/story grind. Which a lot of players simply don't enjoy. In Swtor players didn't mind the leveling experience because they started as the class they wanted, the stories were captivating, and the story levels themselves were good & combat centric. 

Here its suffer thru base game or skip ahead and grind some more to have fun. 

Right, so grind is described as "playing the game" now?  So, they're expecting what, to roll up a new character at 80 with all their specs unlocked?  They're going to be disappointed, and they should be.

[Ravenmoon.5318]

12 hours ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

Right, so grind is described as "playing the game" now?  So, they're expecting what, to roll up a new character at 80 with all their specs unlocked?  They're going to be disappointed, and they should be.

Not fully disagreeing with you, however - one of the core pillars of this game back when it was launching was to put an end to the mindless grind. That's what we signed up for 10 years ago. 

[robertthebard.8150]

4 hours ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

Not fully disagreeing with you, however - one of the core pillars of this game back when it was launching was to put an end to the mindless grind. That's what we signed up for 10 years ago. 

...and if we had 10 players playing at cap after 10 years, instead of 10's of thousands, you'd have a point.  That's very definitely not what we have here.  Regarding the level boosters for PoF and HoT, the only expansions I can speak to, as they're the only ones I own, unlike ESO, those expansions didn't come with a new starting zone, and any new players may indeed want to jump in with the expansions, it's likely that's what drove the purchase decision.  Is the argument going to be that there were no capped toons when the first expansion launched, which necessitated the release of level boosters?

If so, I've got some ocean front property in Arizona for sale, and if not, then it was supposed to be a "gotcha" moment when they came up?

[Gibson.4036]

My son started leveling a new toon last night, and the new adjustments are rocketing him up the levels.

[Voyant.1327]

On 8/23/2022 at 2:57 PM, robertthebard.8150 said:

Right, so grind is described as "playing the game" now?  So, they're expecting what, to roll up a new character at 80 with all their specs unlocked?  They're going to be disappointed, and they should be.

Its not that at all. Its just waiting to have fun. There are very few new MMO players. The most common complaint is not wanting to grind through all the bs just to start playing. Every single person in my guild did the same loop of skip base, get glider, get raptor, get hero points before they started playing. By then half were burnt out.

If the level boost allowed them to spend their hero points that would help for example.

To a lot of players they want their class first before playing so they can develop skill & familiarity.

People want gameplay, to be engaged, challenged, and to have control over the customization of their character. Its why Elden Ring is going to get Game of the Year. Not because its some amazing next level epic, but because it checks all those boxes. 

This game is the opposite you have to grind through all the boring stuff to unlock excessive masteries/hero points. Its why GW2 has been called backwards in regards to this. Most of the basics people want are locked behind expansions/forcing you to skip ahead in order to play the game in the class you want. 

[stormemperor.3745]

Thats why I keep saying boost to 80 directly on necromancer 😄

[Mistwraithe.3106]

I can see why experience players want to be able to get their new alts to level 80 as quickly as possible.

But as a bunch of first time players who have been slowly working ourselves through Tyria and up the levels (around level 50ish currently) we find the new character guide achievements awful. They dish out so much XP they overpower everything else we do and are rapidly over-leveling us for the zone we are exploring, they are going to overlevel us for the next zone we wanted to explore to.

We weren't in a rush to get to level 80. We were enjoying experiencing the game and our characters were gaining experience at what we felt was a perfect rate which matched the rate at which we were finishing zones. It's completely out of whack now and our first session of play with the new system was quite demoralising.

You guys might want to think about the new player experience rather than focusing purely on what suits vets who already have 10 level 80 characters...

[Bladestrom.6425]

2 minutes ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

I can see why experience players want to be able to get their new alts to level 80 as quickly as possible.

But as a bunch of first time players who have been slowly working ourselves through Tyria and up the levels (around level 50ish currently) we find the new character guide achievements awful. They dish out so much XP they overpower everything else we do and are rapidly over-leveling us for the zone we are exploring, they are going to overlevel us for the next zone we wanted to explore to.

We weren't in a rush to get to level 80. We were enjoying experiencing the game and our characters were gaining experience at what we felt was a perfect rate which matched the rate at which we were finishing zones. It's completely out of whack now and our first session of play with the new system was quite demoralising.

You guys might want to think about the new player experience rather than focusing purely on what suits vets who already have 10 level 80 characters...

 

Totally agree, some vets forget that we actually loved the levelling experience.  The world is massive compared to any other mmorpg and is rich with content and is a pleasure to explore for the first time, and new players should experience that, not fast track to 80 through inflated XP gain, in effect skipping over that huge volume of content that ultimately enriches post 80 play.  This isn't wow where getting to 'end game' is essential,  like any journey the first is the best, and some vets forget that and think their experienced view of the journey is important. often speaking 'on behalf' of new players.

[Sobx.1758]

24 minutes ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

I can see why experience players want to be able to get their new alts to level 80 as quickly as possible.

But as a bunch of first time players who have been slowly working ourselves through Tyria and up the levels (around level 50ish currently) we find the new character guide achievements awful. They dish out so much XP they overpower everything else we do and are rapidly over-leveling us for the zone we are exploring, they are going to overlevel us for the next zone we wanted to explore to.

We weren't in a rush to get to level 80. We were enjoying experiencing the game and our characters were gaining experience at what we felt was a perfect rate which matched the rate at which we were finishing zones. It's completely out of whack now and our first session of play with the new system was quite demoralising.

You guys might want to think about the new player experience rather than focusing purely on what suits vets who already have 10 level 80 characters...

Doubt this is aimed at veterans, since a lot of the time veterans have enough Exprience Scrolls (character b-days) and Tomes of Knowledge to delete and re-make instant lvl 80s multiple times over. It seems more like an effort to push people through initial maps asap, maybe as a response to "low levels have too few skills so it's boring!" and similar. It's AT LEAST as annoying to veterans as it is to you -possibly even more, since it clutters your recent achievements and, well, rewards you with nothing.

Not sure how useful or desired it is for new players to be forcefully pushed through, but I sure am not a fan of getting spammed with these achievements. 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[kettering.6823]

2 hours ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

I can see why experience players want to be able to get their new alts to level 80 as quickly as possible.

But as a bunch of first time players who have been slowly working ourselves through Tyria and up the levels (around level 50ish currently) we find the new character guide achievements awful. They dish out so much XP they overpower everything else we do and are rapidly over-leveling us for the zone we are exploring, they are going to overlevel us for the next zone we wanted to explore to.

We weren't in a rush to get to level 80. We were enjoying experiencing the game and our characters were gaining experience at what we felt was a perfect rate which matched the rate at which we were finishing zones. It's completely out of whack now and our first session of play with the new system was quite demoralising.

You guys might want to think about the new player experience rather than focusing purely on what suits vets who already have 10 level 80 characters...

Yes, I made a new character last night to level up alongside the newbies and was shocked by just how much extra XP the achievements dish out. It's great for me, because I have a lot of experience and a lot of characters, but I was concerned it might be off putting to new players. I remember when I first started this game back in 2012 I reached level15 only after I completed all of Caledon Forest. I got to level 15 only having reached the middle of the map, haven't even finished it yet. I imagine I'll be at least level 20 by the time I finish. 

But I can also understand that this might be *appealing* to some new players. I remember hearing from people that they thought the 1-80 experience took too long and they got bored. I guess it depends on the kind of player you are. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by kettering.6823

[Teratus.2859]

Some of the new updates are much appreciated for sure but there is a lot that the core world could be improved on.

I'll give a couple of big ones from my personal list of please fix this Anet regarding the core game.

Living World Season 1.
Finally Anet has been bringing this back after many years of complaining and moaning by me and plenty of others lol
However some people are noting that there are parts of this reintroduced living world which are quite messy and confusing.

Personally I feel that this reintroduced LW1 is a great start!! but not a final solution to the LWS1 problem.
Over time I would like to see Anet revisit living world 1 again and just add a little bit more back in to give it that extra bit it needs to be a lot more complete and less confusing.

Core World Dungeons.
This area of the game needs a lot of work, aside from general polish and improvements.
Wat I would recommend for the explorable paths is to give them a higher difficulty challenge modes much like all other end game group content has.
Adding some new rewards to be earned by playing dungeons would also help bring some people back to them.
The original Guildwars embraced the idea of Elite Armour sets you could earn by playing certain content and I think Gw2 should revisit this concept with dungeon rewards.
Keep your existing dungeon weapon and armour sets but add in Elite variants that not only look better and more prestigious than the originals but come at a higher quality such as Ascended and cost a lot more to obtain.

And then we come to the Dungeon story modes..
For one thing, putting story behind group based dungeon content was a mistake and not one Anet learned with dungeons, they repeated it to a lesser degree with raids a few years later much to the complaints of many casual players.

I firmly believe that Anet should do for all the dungeon story's what it did with Arah and make them more solo friendly.
The only people who care about and want to play dungeon story modes are those who care about the story of Gw2.. and most of them play the game's story solo.
This is really just a no brainer, just make them solo instances like Arah and allow them to scale for groups.

And the last thing regarding dungeon story modes.. they are part of the main game storyline, this is a fact.
But the time in which you get the mail telling you to go and do them is completely out of sync for when in the story these dungeons take place.

For a new player it's going to be confusing that you get mail to do Ascalon Catacombs at level 30, and then 10 levels later you do a main story mission that sets that dungeon up.

Even worse when you get mail at level 40 telling you to do the second dungeon which starts off celebrating a peace treaty between human and charr that if you joined the vigil and have not done their level 40 story missions yet then you haven't even seen it get signed yet nor helped ensure that it did.

These dungeon mail letters should not be delivered to players upon reaching a certain level.
They should be delivered after the player has progressed to the the appropriate point in the story for when they take place.
I know this is a small thing but it infuriating to me as someone who cares about the story and it is very confusing to new players who simply don't know any better and unintentionally play the story out of order because the game told them to do so.
Please fix this Anet.. it's so long overdue.

World Bosses.
I love that Anet went back and improved the 4 starter zone bosses.. really I do and I believe this was absolutely needed.
But they are not the only bosses in the core game that could really use the same TLC attention.

A good deal more core world bosses could use the same kind of attention and I hope that Anet goes back and improves a whole bunch more of them in the coming years.

Personal Story.
This one is more of a polishing thing to make the game more consistent with the vast majority of newer content added post LWS2.

But I for one would love to do away with all those old character dialogue cutscenes and have the voiced dialogue of those cutscenes play out in the open game like it does in pretty much all content since Heart of Thorns.
This is probably a big ask and a very minor change overall but I want it regardless.
I hate how inconsistent the dialogue was treated in the earlier game going from voiced cutscenes to mostly non voiced dialogue to what they finally settled on with open world dialogue and interactions.
This is very much a simple pick one and stick with it kinda thing and while it won't have any drastic impact on the game overall it will make the game feel a lot more consistent and polished in this area.

Mechanics training and tutors.
End of Dragons introduced a bunch of training areas in Cantha that were a big help to get people learning how to use mechanics like dodging and combo fields etc which the game has always done a pretty terrible job at teaching people.
I very much share this same opinion with many Gw2 players and content creators but these training areas absolutely need to be brought into the core Gw2 game to teach players how Gw2 works when they are first starting their adventures.

This is just a no brainer.. please introduce better training areas into the early game areas where it is most needed and most useful.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

On 8/25/2022 at 12:51 PM, kettering.6823 said:

Yes, I made a new character last night to level up alongside the newbies and was shocked by just how much extra XP the achievements dish out. It's great for me, because I have a lot of experience and a lot of characters, but I was concerned it might be off putting to new players. I remember when I first started this game back in 2012 I reached level15 only after I completed all of Caledon Forest. I got to level 15 only having reached the middle of the map, haven't even finished it yet. I imagine I'll be at least level 20 by the time I finish.

 

I think you will find you're more like level 25-30, the rewards are ridiculous.

That might be fine for new players to boost them to level 30.

It sucks for us level 50 characters to be suddenly boosted to level 80 😞

[Armwvingtoobman.5896]

I have only played core Tyria maps so far and it's one of my fave games ever just because of the beautiful, painterly design, the feeling of scale, the sense that zones are non-symmetrical and feel jumbled and real and just the warm, sun-shiny atmosphere. I frankly never really cared much about combat in games, though, to me it just exists to give the world texture, but I don't care much about pressing buttons in a certain order or whatever. I actually find games that force you to care about that too much kind of annoying. What looks really boring to me is people who already have mounts and gliding just zooming through the maps to get to all the poi's and waypoints as fast as possible. It's just pointing your camera towards a circle on a map. And for me the experience has been kind of ruined by the new adventure guide, which spams me with achievement pop ups every time i do anything. 

[Armwvingtoobman.5896]

8 minutes ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

 

I think you will find you're more like level 25-30, the rewards are ridiculous.

That might be fine for new players to boost them to level 30.

It sucks for us level 50 characters to be suddenly boosted to level 80 😞

lol I gained like three levels for weapon swapping as an ele because it completed a level of these new achievements. i was just dicking around in harathi hinterlands trying to get some of these things out of the way, and it got me from like level 63 to seventy something if I remember right.