Gw2 Pay to Win or Skill to Win, Core Buids Outdated.

[RUB RUB RUB RUBZ.9136]

19 minutes ago, JWiLL.7514 said:

It's literally always and forever been like that. New players come in with their PVE builds and gear and have little idea of what to do or to expect and they can run into almost anyone who knows their way around WvW and get wrecked within seconds. New players stick out in more ways than one and their low/beginner rank can make them an easy target.

 

Some players after suffering that dig in, get educated and get the necessary gear and builds to compete in that game mode and some run and never look back and at times blame everything but themselves. To blame this on the xpac elites though...Just no bro.

This is true in some sense, yes any noob is going to get smashed by anyone who does wvw on a daily basis, but lets say someone waits a year, gets ascended gear, reads up on what they need for wvw, prepares for wvw, then finally makes it in, has a good build and still gets smashed by some EOD meta build, and just quits the game, I know people who did this. They spent a year+ waiting to do wvw, and then get there and just leave gw2 for good. 

And you cant make an excuse that they were weak or just weren't cut out for wvw. Its not only Anet that frustrates me, but people like you and all the rest who are P2W deniers who refuse to open their eyes and see what is really happening to the community, and new players coming into the game. 

[Demented Lemur.7861]

15 minutes ago, RUB RUB RUB RUBZ.9136 said:

Of course the devs need money to live, and work, and continue to keep Gw2 running, but they are escalating the power lvls of the new characters to much that core builds cant even compete against them. How is it so hard for you to understand this? Did you not read the opening argument? This game IS Pay to win now. It has been since HoT, with new builds being more powerful than core game. Of course they weren't too OP where core players couldn't kill them, but now with EOD the lvl of power is way beyond being able to kill them, its not even close to even. The only way I could kill a EOD build is if they stood still for 2-3 minutes and let me pummel them. If they fought back I'm dead. 

You know what. kitten it all MMOs are pay to win by this logic. So it's fine if this game is pay to win.

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

On one hand this might be true for 1v1 and stuff like that, but WvW is a large scale battle, if you don't have a boon blob of your own, you're kinda useless no matter what spec you are using lol.

[Klemvore.9805]

13 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Buying a game is P2W these days. 

🙃

Yeah.... People's opinion of P2W is getting pretty lax...

 

Anet need to pay to keep servers running etc... Expansions are literally the only legit way to do that other than monthly fees... WoW uses both and it's not pay to win...

 

Pay to win is about micro transactions of which this game has a TON but mostly not game breaking as a character in full exotic and pretty cheap runes can still be a force to be reckoned with.... Mostly you pay for cosmetics and gem to gold conversions... And the gem to gold conversion is usually to fuel legendary gear which isn't really needed.

 

I play my guardian in core mode... I prefer it... I have all 3 expansions... I unlocked firebrand and the ascended axe... I'm core.

 

My necro could have stayed core.... And my engineer was fine as core but I prefer as mechanist... My warrior and Mesmer are theme builds that required specific weapons which limited my options.

 

It's not nearly as bad as you are saying... The main issue is you are not using P2W correctly... And you are looking at a non competitive method of funding a game in a very competitive environment... They can do PvE just fine... 100% for free.  And roam in WvW blobs....

[Porthios.1952]

1 hour ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

None of this has any broad conclusion one way or the other. It is mostly design and balance issues tbh.

There are classes where the especs have always been sidegrades and different.

There are other classes where the especs have always been upgrades and have built functionality ontop of the core.

It should also be noted that how strong or impactful the class mechanics are also differ quite wildly between classes. This is especially true since some of the core functionality of certain classes has become more or less baseline across more or all classes over time.

For example, the initiative system has not been duplicated. The shroud system has been duplicated. At the same time the (necro-) shroud system is a rather impactful system and a good example of strong design where each spec has unique and obvious function so core has a place among the specs. On the other side you have Ranger for example with a core system that never was well implemented and especs that struggles with being straight upgrades even though the devs have attempted a core-improvement project on the class. Another rather interesting example is Guardian that has remained important in alot of content even though it has rather anonymous core functionality thanks to certain boons being an important part of its core design and even though those boons have been duplicated on alot of other specs over time, they are so important that Guardians having more of them have kept them in high demand.

It's a very interesting example of whether the design/function is strong or whether the context/result is strong that often go woosh above the head of people. We have good examples of this in both recent Celestial threads and in things like the WvW class overview stream with Teapot and Roy a couple of days ago.

So, err, to bring this back to something relatable: Some classes have core specs that stay relevant, other classes have not. It is how they have always been designed. How stand-out their especs are, but also how stand-out their core mechanics are to begin with.

This is probably the only comment on this thread that matters.  The issue has more to do with balance overall than especs supposedly always being better.  You have plenty of examples of elite specs performing both better and worse at different parts of the game that core specs. And how many especs are heavily dependent on core spec functionality in order to be successful anyways? All of them.

 

The introduction of especs has always been about adding *more* variety to how you play the professions, not adding direct upgrades to them.

[LrdGodsword.9234]

Last time I checked, all I really did in world vs world was follow a tagged commander and complete objectives very rarely did I ever have to worry about combat because most encounters with the enemy squad/server would be very short and the shorter they were the better because then we would just take another route it was more about out witting the enemy server rather than actually combating them so I do not get why you would think your build even mattered that much unless you are one of those people who ganks others. Just stay with the group and you should be fine. At least when it comes to world vs world. Then again I haven't really bothered with world v world for a very long time. 

[Knamliss.9148]

This is their version of vertical progression, and even then it's very minor compared to the standard gear score method other Walmart MMOs use. With the philosophy that Elite specs let you turn the class into something that it hasn't been able to do before (like ranger healing) It mimics the classic final fantasy job system from the early days of gaming, there is a base and a specialization.

 

This kind of system naturally has an implied vertical progression but wasn't directly stated that it would have more power. Most of the time it's not even necessarily the trait line that's superior, it's the F/profession mechanic that the class is given that makes it far stronger than the base. 

 

My conclusion is that I prefer this system over a gear score system any day of the week. When you couple this with no-level cap increases, it gives us a lot of new ways to play old content every time an expack rolls around. Albeit the old content might need a rework of they keep raising the standard DPS mark. (40k now).

 

I'll gladly pay expansion fees for content and new classes, and in no universe do I ever think it's p2w. The game should have launched with this system imo.

[Luthan.5236]

And yet you still can get tons of the rewards by just running with the zerg and tagging enemies - no 1 vs. 1 required. So this is less of a problem in WvW than in PvP. Not the other way round.

I guess it depends on what you consider "win" in the WvW environment. There might be players that play it for the rewards only. Others for winning as a world/server. Valid reasons I think. And you can still do a lot of stuff to contribute.

Just focusing on small fights trying to be better than others and complaining that they are better cause of their elite spec? ... you could do that. Or just try to have fun in a different way.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[MedievalThings.5417]

The pay to win mechanic in wvw exists, just not in the way people think.  You can literally give them money, to stack tons of people on a server/link so you win most, if not all, of your fights, because you will only fight outnumbered servers.

 

The balance between classes/specs has very little impact on fights.  When I'm not playing support (usually minstrel scrapper), I tend to run core specs.  They can be competitive if you build them right.

[Vision.9074]

The reason, which I know at least one person mentioned, is that the core game does not have Elite Specs. Elite Specs were introduced with HoT. It's a design philosophy more than anything as an evolution of the game, the story, and the player. However, the difference an Elite Spec and the core specs is really that an Elite Spec unlocks the ability to use a dedicated weapon and skill type. Elite Specs are by nature supposed to be more powerful. Yes, it creates a separation between Core players and Expansion players, but that can be said for all the other expansion features like gliding, mounts, etcetera too.

While it may not agreeable, it is the business model of the game and those features are designed to attract players to purchase the expansions. If we were paying subs, this would be an entirely different conversation.

[LuRkEr.9462]

17 hours ago, RUB RUB RUB RUBZ.9136 said:

Core builds, once feared, now obsolete and useless in WvW, and PvP. Its either buy new content or stand no chance against new meta builds. I know pvp isn't like that, but wvw is. PvP is pretty equal with talent required game play, however WvW, no matter what you do to your characters as far as armor, runes, sigils, and build for core builds they stand no chance against new meta builds unless you use extreme tactics, skill, and trickery. Ambushes, stealth, pulls, stuns, disabling, seems like my only chance to shut down and kill some of the new META classes. 

 

There are so many things that anger me about gw2, that I could make 10-15 more threads about them but I'm not usually a complainer. I stay in my corner and keep quiet but my level of frustration has peaked. I love core builds, and hate some of the new classes. But why should I move to a new class just to be more powerful? Why cant Anet keep them even in power? 

 

LOL buying expansion isn't p2w in any scenario. You're buying the game lol

[XenoSpyro.1780]

17 hours ago, Aravind.9610 said:

If they don't make elite spec builds better than core, then why would PvP and WvW players buy expansions, if they can just keep up with core? You're gimping yourself to core, and that is your choice. Don't complain about "OP" elite spec builds then.

Quit manufacturing consent for bad balance.

[Odin.6487]

Core S/D thief bussin 

Core  tactics warrior bussin 

Core support guardian bussin

Core minion mancer bussin

Core shatter mesmer bussin 

Core p/d condi thief bussin 

Core D/D ele bussin 

Core Valk ranger bussin

Core longbow ranger bussin 

core specs are fine. There’s so many specs in the game man and 90 percent of them are good. 

[Voltage.8027]

18 hours ago, Aravind.9610 said:

Anet has to make money somehow. And that's by selling expansions. All MMOs do this so why pick on Anet now?

They already have the gem store for that. Let's not sacrifice the game balance and integrity to make a quick dollar.

[Kugetsu.6450]

To think there are people who STILL don't know what "pay to win" means after all this time... or are people pretending they can change the definition?  Who knows?  Regardless,  expacs have NEVER been part of "pay-to-win".  Period.  It matters not what you personally think it means, a door is still a door even if you think it's a large opaque window without glass.

 

To answer the question posed by the topic, learning to play smarter is likely the issue.  (Although one can still play braindead and do fine if doing WvW zergs...) Core is perfectly fine if you know how to play your class well enough and know what not to do.  I've personally not had any issues and I don't even consider myself "decent".  In fact, I tend to use core more often then not because I like it. *shrug*. When I lose, I blame myself, not the game.

[Ashen.2907]

19 hours ago, RUB RUB RUB RUBZ.9136 said:

But anet promoted the vision of F2P when it first came out, then some addition they added where it changed that core value angered many Gw2 players and they later nerfed their update and kept their core value to F2P. Its F2P but with heavy restrictions on older content which is stupid and goes against their Original core values. We all know Anet needs $ to run, but they shouldn't be making new content so ridiculously OP that someone new to the game learning builds can't even hope to compete with new META.

 

It's gotten to the point where people coming into the game are getting wrecked so bad in wvw they just refuse to ever go back after such a bad experience, even if they are BEGGED to go back. Some just never come back. 

Someone new to the game is going to get destroyed in WvW regardless of whether or not they have access to the current crop of specs. Anyone who joins a ten year old game and expects to compete effectively against people with hundreds or thousands of hours of play time, and quits when they cant, should give up on pvping.

[Einsof.1457]

11 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You can't buy elite spec or expansions with gold.

Well that's some bs. I could have swore the xpacs were available with gems. lame. 

[Fantazyz.4723]

You’re a silly goose. As if base necro was not meta for years through hot and pof. Just because you’re having a hard time learning to counter the new classes does not make them p2w. Just be happy that your entire gear set did not become obsolete because a new expansion released like your average mmo be grateful. 

[hellsqueen.3045]

19 hours ago, RUB RUB RUB RUBZ.9136 said:

But anet promoted the vision of F2P when it first came out, then some addition they added where it changed that core value angered many Gw2 players and they later nerfed their update and kept their core value to F2P. Its F2P but with heavy restrictions on older content which is stupid and goes against their Original core values. We all know Anet needs $ to run, but they shouldn't be making new content so ridiculously OP that someone new to the game learning builds can't even hope to compete with new META.

 

It's gotten to the point where people coming into the game are getting wrecked so bad in wvw they just refuse to ever go back after such a bad experience, even if they are BEGGED to go back. Some just never come back. 

Calling the Core Game F2P is a bit misleading, it attracts attention to get people in but really it is Free To Try until max level where you get access to most of the core game but there are restrictions, like only being able to whisper people in your map unless mutual friends and limited Trading Post access and more. People who have the paid core game version still have an unrestricted account in terms of the things they always had access to prior to the changes.

Let's talk PvP and WvW for new players. PvP is much more easily accessible to new players regardless of core build or not because you can join WvW on a level one character but because of the mode having structure to it, your character is as useful as an 80 because you get access to all traits available to you (elite specs obviously tied to expansions) and then you don't need to go track down gear for you to be relevant. PvP gives you access to a list of instantly equippable items to get you to be about the same strength as everyone else. The rest is on you to be skillful enough to fight and while Elite Specs are strong, hopefully being matchmade against people of your skill level will give you enough wiggle room to still be able to enjoy and fight on a core class if that is all you have.

WvW is wildly different for new player experience. Your level plays a factor because WvW unlocks account wide when your first character hits level 60 for a Trial Player. You don't even have access to your 3rd Trait Slot yet in PvE, which means you probably still aren't 100% on the best synergies for your class yet when it comes to abilities and traits. The let us factor in whather or not you have enough hero points yet to unlock what you might want or need in regards to traits and utility.

You get your level cap raised to 80, sure but what about the fact that gear doesn't scale up with you? If you joined in at level 60 or later with whatever you had equipped on your journey, some people are going to be in Green, Yellow, Orange mish mash of rarity gear with likely a whole mix of stats that are going to leave them at a serious disadvantage and they aren't going to have runes and sigils to top off their build either most likely.

And then those players don't know the game mode and what to do, so they run around and come across the roamers who are some of the most deadly players as it is for anyone who has a build better designed for Blob/Zergs, so imagine what they can do to some newbie just running around with zero clue on how to actually take most of the objectives. Without finding a Commander in their early stages of play, they generally struggle and may just quit.

Being on a core build is a disadvantage, but it is worse simply because of how unprepared they are for the game mode. The fact core builds can work in PvP shows that they are usable, WvW just has a lot more steps needed to get classes to usable to state in WvW.

[hellsqueen.3045]

1 hour ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Someone new to the game is going to get destroyed in WvW regardless of whether or not they have access to the current crop of specs. Anyone who joins a ten year old game and expects to compete effectively against people with hundreds or thousands of hours of play time, and quits when they cant, should give up on pvping.

It is so true, WvW actually requires you to be max level to be truly effective even if you can access it from level one because even if you get scaled to 80, you don't have ANY gear or specializations which play a huge factor in your effectiveness for the game mode.

So a new player who unlocks WvW at level 60 for their whole account, jumps in and doesn't have enough Hero Points to have access to all their core traits and utility, has a mish mash of stats, levels and rarities on the gear they are wearing with no runes and sigils is going to be a severe disadvantage because they aren't prepared for that content yet.

And then they run around of their own because they don't realize the more inexperienced should find a commander to learn a bit more about the game and have a bit more strength in numbers. They get found on their own by Roamers who could probably kill them in seconds as they spam away trying not to die because they aren't ready.

[hellsqueen.3045]

19 hours ago, RUB RUB RUB RUBZ.9136 said:

The whole point of competitive content is to keep players HAPPY, and fighting each other with SKILL, not "BUYING SKILL" So you are saying that to be better now at the game is to just buy your skills? Anet designed WvW maps to be balanced in both distance from spawns, preventing each side from having too much advantage in exploits, and balancing server activities by combining them. Anet shot themselves in the foot long ago with wvw because of their failed attempts to make wvw fair with spawn campings leaving defenders exposed with no way to defend themselves. 

But buying your way to the top seems the only way now to get 2 legs up on new players now and core players. Enemy players underestimate my core character every time when I rip their @$$ a new 1 because they think its just going to be an easy kill. Sometimes I can kill new meta players other times its like, I stood no chance at all. It angers me severely because it was designed this way by people who don't give a crap about us anymore but just use the game for a steady $ now. 

You claim the Elite Specs are OP and are also claiming you are destroying people (with elite specs) presumably on a core build, so what makes it okay for you to be destroying people but not the other way around?

Have you considered you could be getting countered or out matched? The same happens to people with Elite Specs, I have taken fights where I win and others where I lose. You don't get to fight balanced match ups in WvW because there isn't really a match making, there are people who have been playing for a stupid long time and are very good.

[Tukaram.8256]

11 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

but the truth of the matter is the game isn't pay to win,

Yeah, and the truth is I was agreeing with you. 

[daesz.2439]

Dont remember anet ever promised anyone they will work for free.l

You should be ashmed to not willing to pay dev once in lifetime for the time and effort they put into making this game, balancing it, releasing ton of content, etc.

[Tukaram.8256]

1 minute ago, daesz.2439 said:

Dont remember anet ever promised anyone they will work for free.l

You should be ashmed to not willing to pay dev once in lifetime for the time and effort they put into making this game, balancing it, releasing ton of content, etc.

This is exactly why ANet should never have changed the core game to F2P. It attracts people that want everything for free. There was already no subscription, and paying for the game itself is more than reasonable. 

[Vayne.8563]

10 minutes ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

This is exactly why ANet should never have changed the core game to F2P. It attracts people that want everything for free. There was already no subscription, and paying for the game itself is more than reasonable. 

I disagree with this. It's a filtering process. Tons of people have played the free game and bought the game and now are part of the community. Tons of people obviously haven't. By removing the barrier to entry you get people to try it, particularly as a game gets older. Why would people pay to play an older game when new and shiny is everywhere.  Free to play was a good move.

This game has always been pretty good at filtering out people who won't enjoy it.  Those that do stay. But more people trying it means more people staying.