[Suggestions ] Just listen to this guy

[Esorono.1039]

3 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

To iterate on this further: Yes, we need that kind of content since the game needs dedicated players who actually produce content for the game - be it builds for the community on sites like metabattle, guides pp.  on their own website or youtube or general content of the game on social media which also has the function of advertisement - just to name a few reasons. The main focus still is open world though. You just have to check fractal and raid releases on one side and open world releases on the other.

The reason why a large part of the community doesn't care about that kind of content now is because Arena Net neglected and still neglects those parts of the community that does care which leads players who enjoy that kind of content to leave the game. The pseudo-casual subcommunity I spoke about also did their part by being toxic and malicious about changes that actually harms the content those people enjoy. There are some popular cases like build templates, changes to fractals (I still miss good old 40) or - the latest entry - nerfing fractal CM rewards. If you bully people out of the game, the parts of the community that care about content like raids will naturally shrink.

Nonetheless, GW2 is still incredibly casual-friendly. You don't have a gear treadmill, you don't have to participate in raids pp., you don't have annoying RNG etc.

These communities will grow no matter how casual friendly the game is. Take Pokemon Sword and Shield for example, the game is so mind numbingly easy, not even a child without the ability to read would have any difficulty. Yet the team building aspect of Pokemon is something some  people spend their entire time creating and perfecting, and it is so popular there is a fan game, and an entire community revolved around it. There are guides and speed runs for Cooking Mama and Animal Crossing. It doesn't matter how casual you make something, the community will find a way to make a competition out of it. However, not all games have to make this their focus, it is good that there are MMORPGs that cater to the hardcore crowd. But there should also be MMORPGs that focus on people who wish to relax and not want to feel stressed during their time off. And really your only real viable choice is GW2 for that.

The people who whine and cry that the game should be more like WoW and FF14 should just play those games and let GW2 focus on what it is good at instead of slowly becoming more and more like those games over time. I feel like they are the same type of people who go to a Sushi restaurant and complain about having too much sushi and their lack of variety of burgers when there is a burger restaurant down the corner. Let's be honest, those games do endgame content far better than GW2, but both are crap if you are a casual player and just want to relax and do open world stuff. Swapping focus now is just going to alienate both of the player bases as it's still not as good as those games that revolve around it. But still too much for the average GW2 player. Some people like Animal Crossing, others like Dark Souls. An Animal Crossing fan would not enjoy it if it suddenly became Dark Souls and vice versa. I rather if things stay on the same track as it has been, because well, I like the game the way it is. It's why I play it, it's why a lot of people play it. If you don't there are other options.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

22 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

The people who whine and cry that the game should be more like WoW and FF14 should just play those games and let GW2 focus on what it is good at instead of slowly becoming more and more like those games over time.

This argument goes both ways - why can't we have both? I don't think it's impossible, considering there is already so much "relaxing" content to indulge in. Many games certainly successfully cater to both audience groups.

 

22 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

Take Pokemon Sword and Shield for example,

Pokémon has a cult following around it for the past 30 or so years.

 

22 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

There are guides and speed runs for Cooking Mama and Animal Crossing. It doesn't matter how casual you make something, the community will find a way to make a competition out of it.

I don't follow the connection between competition and guides? Or even speed runs, for that matter.  While they certainly can contain competitive elements, they're not inherently such - speed runs, for example, used to be something people did for the fun of it. To engage in a community, improve ONESELF and to play a game they enjoy a lot. 

 

22 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

But there should also be MMORPGs that focus on people who wish to relax and not want to feel stressed during their time off. And really your only real viable choice is GW2 for that.

If people really thought that, GW2 would have more players. Maybe you're just mirroring GW2 too directly (open world), failing to see the other forms of 'non-stressing' content those games have to offer? Doesn't Final Fantasy have a fractal (raid) tier system that's almost a carbon copy of Guild Wars 2's own? 

 

22 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

However, not all games have to make this their focus,

(Sense of) progression is actually a very key component in any game's design. Why do you think people are complaining about the reward structure?

Edited May 4, 2022 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Raizel.8175]

7 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

These communities will grow no matter how casual friendly the game is. Take Pokemon Sword and Shield for example, the game is so mind numbingly easy, not even a child without the ability to read would have any difficulty. Yet the team building aspect of Pokemon is something some  people spend their entire time creating and perfecting, and it is so popular there is a fan game, and an entire community revolved around it. There are guides and speed runs for Cooking Mama and Animal Crossing. It doesn't matter how casual you make something, the community will find a way to make a competition out of it. However, not all games have to make this their focus, it is good that there are MMORPGs that cater to the hardcore crowd. But there should also be MMORPGs that focus on people who wish to relax and not want to feel stressed during their time off. And really your only real viable choice is GW2 for that.

The people who whine and cry that the game should be more like WoW and FF14 should just play those games and let GW2 focus on what it is good at instead of slowly becoming more and more like those games over time. I feel like they are the same type of people who go to a Sushi restaurant and complain about having too much sushi and their lack of variety of burgers when there is a burger restaurant down the corner. Let's be honest, those games do endgame content far better than GW2, but both are crap if you are a casual player and just want to relax and do open world stuff. Swapping focus now is just going to alienate both of the player bases as it's still not as good as those games that revolve around it. But still too much for the average GW2 player. Some people like Animal Crossing, others like Dark Souls. An Animal Crossing fan would not enjoy it if it suddenly became Dark Souls and vice versa. I rather if things stay on the same track as it has been, because well, I like the game the way it is. It's why I play it, it's why a lot of people play it. If you don't there are other options.

The thing is: Predominantly, the people complaining are the pseudo-casual that Arena Net uses resources for instanced content. The majority of the more hardcore community is so very disillusioned that they're already happy with everything they get. The "super-casual" audience also isn't the only target audience of GW2 - dungeons, PvP and WvW were there at release too and those also need players to be more involved with class and game mechanics. Hardcore communities also won't grow if the developer neglects their content and if they're actually bullied by other parts of the community - GW2 is actually quite a good example for that.

26 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Heck, you could even utilize some form of LFG alongside or even within the guild. Guild/Alliance interaction!

Well, I'm not that fond of WvW myself even though I do occasionly enjoy doing WvW. I'd still like to see some major changes to WvW - Alliances is in work for almost 4 (?) years by now though (...and people complain about there not being enough open world releases, lol...). It would be really nice if Arena Net were to focus on the whole siege aspect. Aion was kinda fun in that regard in its golden days.

[mindcircus.1506]

7 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

The people who whine and cry that the game should be more like WoW and FF14 should just play those games and let GW2 focus on what it is good at instead of slowly becoming more and more like those games over time

An MMORPG cannot survive by catering to just one portion of the playerbase.
There are a lot more casual players playing FF14 than there are playing Gw2.

 

14 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

Some people like Animal Crossing, others like Dark Souls. An Animal Crossing fan would not enjoy it if it suddenly became Dark Souls and vice versa.

In order for an MMO to be popular it must draw in both players. WoW does this by offering Mythic Plus Raiding and Pet Battles. FF14 offers far more than any MMO for Roleplayers at the same time as offering Savage raids.
This  zero sum game of Animal Crossing or it's Dark Souls is just part of the divisive rhetoric pushed by faux-casuals in an attempt to wag the dog.

[Dante.1508]

5 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

I couldn’t agree more, we see this behavior every day here on the forum. 

The reason you see it on the forums is because those casuals cop it in game from the other end of the spectrum and some what Anet because its catering to only one end of the groups.

4 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

It really comes down to how you define casual and toxicity, these days and within this game's context. We can also look at the question from the general gaming perspective - where, imo, a lot of these players WOULD be labeled as casuals.

That's the definition I'm rolling with.

 

You see this in the social media (and in real life all the time) - people who can't be qualified as "engaged" giving their say in various matters. Heck, it's one of the reasons America has such a bad public figure worship culture.

Anyone who plays the game is qualified to engage on the forums.. its a forum after all.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Dante.1508

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Pot meets kettle, folks.

[ugrakarma.9416]

7 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

He's right on this one, too, btw: the more "casual" GW2 community is incredibly toxic on average. They absolutely cannot take any form of criticism or discuss things in a civil manner. Time and time again, we witness this these days; hence, the controversies as of recent (i.e. EoD Dragon's End meta).

Casuals have every right to be that way.

Casuals are people full of "real life" who find some kind of "home" in this game, they don't feel under pressure.

Obviously they will be irritated or "toxic" if someone keeps suggesting to make their game worse, because someone who considers themselves "too smart" has the ego feels uncomfortable with them.

The whole premise starts off wrong on the part of the idea of fixing the players, what they need to fix is the game.

Edited May 5, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[battledrone.8315]

10 hours ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

The truly casual player does not engage with the forums.

It's important to not paint an entire sizeable portion of the playerbase by the same brush as the truly toxic players on this forum invoking the work "casual" in self interest, entitlement, and attempts to wag the dog.

thats really funny, considering the fate of raids. do you know why the big countries always win more gold medals?

its because they more have people to chose from.

you want a big raiding community? or a raiding community at all? you have to start with a big game first.

and big games , per defintion, will have a big majority of casual players.

it is very telling, that a sub based korean grinder with a super annoying story has more players, than this game

 

[The Boz.2038]

Boy, this thread devolved into lies and toxicity real fast.

Shame.

[BadHealer.3608]

I'm confused about this topic. So the suggestion to make the game better is to stop playing the game and "listing" to some youtube videos? Sorry, if you are unable to write what you want, do not bother going to a forum. Here we are to read and write. If I want to watch something, I could suggest some nice Netflix shows.

[Raknar.4735]

17 hours ago, Esorono.1039 said:

Some people like Animal Crossing, others like Dark Souls. An Animal Crossing fan would not enjoy it if it suddenly became Dark Souls and vice versa

While true, there's also a huge difference between games like Animal Crossing or Soulsborne and MMORPGs.

If you were to play Soulsborne like some people play MMORPGs, by min-maxxing & watching guides left and right, you'd end up with a game where bosses would just get 1/2-hit.
The beauty of playing a game like Dark Souls & Animal Crossing comes from being able to go in blind & not having to know stuff. It's the reverse for some MMORPG content where you're expected to know stuff from the get-go, even when attempting something for the first time, because your group demands it.

So in a way, the whole Soulsborne series is a whole lot easier than MMORPGs if you were to put in the same amount of research into it.

Also funny to see the same people, once again, bickering amongst themselves & targeting the  "casual"-boogeyman using the same old tired rhetoric, spreading toxicity & hijacking yet another forum thread. Guess things never change with you guys 😅

Edited May 5, 2022 by Raknar.4735

[Raizel.8175]

14 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

Casuals have every right to be that way.

Casuals are people full of "real life" who find some kind of "home" in this game, they don't feel under pressure.

Obviously they will be irritated or "toxic" if someone keeps suggesting to make their game worse, because someone who considers themselves "too smart" has the ego feels uncomfortable with them.

The whole premise starts off wrong on the part of the idea of fixing the players, what they need to fix is the game.

Talk about toxic.

"Hardcore" players also have a real life, you know? People also aren't suggesting to make the game worse, but to improve certain aspects of the game.

Fun fact: The game doesn't just belong to the "casual" people you're talking about - if you even mean casual players to begin with -, but also to hardcore players. Instead of trying to reach a compromise, the (wannabe?) "casual" you're talking about outright deny any changes - even if they would profit from said changes.

The thing with GW2 is that the game has a very obvious player mindset problem. It's no wonder that the community in general is regarded as rather weird by the wider MMORPG community. The best example would be the whole entitlement-discussion ("In game X, if you want item Y from content Z, you play content Z. In GW2 though, you complain as much as possible to get item Y from content Z without ever stepping foot into content Z.") In GW2, there are even parts of the community which to this day are still oblivious about fundamental game mechanics. That's not a "fix the game", but "fix the player" problem. Usually, when you play a MMORPG and become a part of the community, you "sign" a social contract - you agree to get the knowledge about fundamental game mechanics to be able to carry your weight. Just in GW2 though, people think that such a thing doesn't exist.

2 hours ago, BadHealer.3608 said:

I'm confused about this topic. So the suggestion to make the game better is to stop playing the game and "listing" to some youtube videos? Sorry, if you are unable to write what you want, do not bother going to a forum. Here we are to read and write. If I want to watch something, I could suggest some nice Netflix shows.

What wrong with discussing aspects of the game that could use improvement? Or do you think that a permanent status quo would be healthy for the game?

[Luci.7018]

11 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Talk about toxic.

"Hardcore" players also have a real life, you know? People also aren't suggesting to make the game worse, but to improve certain aspects of the game.

Fun fact: The game doesn't just belong to the "casual" people you're talking about - if you even mean casual players to begin with -, but also to hardcore players. Instead of trying to reach a compromise, the (wannabe?) "casual" you're talking about outright deny any changes - even if they would profit from said changes.

The thing with GW2 is that the game has a very obvious player mindset problem. It's no wonder that the community in general is regarded as rather weird by the wider MMORPG community. The best example would be the whole entitlement-discussion ("In game X, if you want item Y from content Z, you play content Z. In GW2 though, you complain as much as possible to get item Y from content Z without ever stepping foot into content Z.") In GW2, there are even parts of the community which to this day are still oblivious about fundamental game mechanics. That's not a "fix the game", but "fix the player" problem. Usually, when you play a MMORPG and become a part of the community, you "sign" a social contract - you agree to get the knowledge about fundamental game mechanics to be able to carry your weight. Just in GW2 though, people think that such a thing doesn't exist.

What wrong with discussing aspects of the game that could use improvement? Or do you think that a permanent status quo would be healthy for the game?

It's not really a problem , it's an evolution .

Normally in the old non-auto-LFG you had to be polite and watch out your language , to get invited to groups .

Now in our case , if you believe you are the "Sun" and we must adore you or become like you  , we can simply choose to avoid you

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Stx.4857]

Listening to that guy is how we get tragic balance patches like nerfing invigorating precision from 20% down to 6%, and impact Savant from 15% down to 5%.

 

No thank you.

[mindcircus.1506]

1 minute ago, Stx.4857 said:

Listening to that guy is how we get tragic balance patches like nerfing invigorating precision from 20% down to 6%, and impact Savant from 15% down to 5%.

 

No thank you.

Teapot is responsible for the downtuning of these traits?

I must know the rationale behind this claim.

[Stx.4857]

Just now, mindcircus.1506 said:

Teapot is responsible for the downtuning of these traits?

I must know the rationale behind this claim.

He mentioned in his patch reaction video that those were good changes because in a select few raid encounters they provided a lot of sustain.  He generally thinks about the game from the narrow mind set of a raider, which is why these traits were made useless....   I'm not saying A-net made these nerfs happen because they listened to him, I'm saying I DONT want A-net listening to a guy that only views the game from a narrow point of view, because it leads to changes like this.

[Raizel.8175]

21 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

It's not really a problem , it's an evolution .

Normally in the old non-auto-LFG you had to be polite and watch out your language , to get invited to groups .

Now in our case , if you believe you are the "Sun" and we must adore you or become like you  , we can simply choose to avoid you

 

Nobody believes s/he's the "sun" though? The more hardcore players just want people to have knowledge about fundamental game mechanics - which is actually the norm in any game and especially in online-games.

[mindcircus.1506]

2 minutes ago, Stx.4857 said:

 I'm not saying A-net made these nerfs happen because they listened to him, I'm saying I DONT want A-net listening to a guy that only views the game from a narrow point of view, because it leads to changes like this.

Teapot hardly plays the game from a narrow perspective. He is constantly running Meta trains in OW, participating in WvW, running instanced content like strikes raids and fractals, organizing PvP tournaments, running fashion contests.
As far as content creators/streamers go, I am hard pressed to think of anyone else that showcases and participates in the breadth of content he does.

More to the point however:
I am primarily an open world player and I agreed with the changes as well.

[Stx.4857]

8 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Teapot hardly plays the game from a narrow perspective. He is constantly running Meta trains in OW, participating in WvW, running instanced content like strikes raids and fractals, organizing PvP tournaments, running fashion contests.
As far as content creators/streamers go, I am hard pressed to think of anyone else that showcases and participates in the breadth of content he does.

More to the point however:
I am primarily an open world player and I agreed with the changes as well.

We can debate the merit of those two changes in another thread, but if you are mind over meta on youtube, then I would challenge you to make an open world power Thief build or Scrapper build that can hold a candle to condi Thief or holosmith / mechanist.  

 

Those changes killed those builds for open world, very bad changes.

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Teapot hardly plays the game from a narrow perspective. He is constantly running Meta trains in OW, participating in WvW, running instanced content like strikes raids and fractals, organizing PvP tournaments, running fashion contests.
As far as content creators/streamers go, I am hard pressed to think of anyone else that showcases and participates in the breadth of content he does.

More to the point however:
I am primarily an open world player and I agreed with the changes as well.

I guess you play revenant which did go from behind broken sustain to just broken. While the other profession gone from VERY strong to borderline unusable. My rev still doesn´t die. My thief heals for 5% on his 5-10k damage. That is 5oo health per second at most. In practice much less. And not worth the final trait in OW. While being even more niche in Raids now.

 

I think teapot cares about the health of the game. But is pretty clear, to me at least, he plays on another plane then most people. Like the nerf to sustain is a minor fix for raid balance at the cost of A lot of OW/Solo play power for no reason. People still cheese game mechanics in raids with all the powerful tools they have. The nerf to self sustain is like drop on a hot stone. While a lot of people lost much power in a place which wasn't problematic to begin with.

 

A pro perspective on Profession mechanics makes way more sense in PvP and WvW. If something is broken in there it is to the detriment of other players. So long something doesn't eclipse raid/Strike representation it really doesn't matter if its little broken. Not even once did I see a LFG looking for Scrapper/Rev/Thief DPS because of there strong selfheal/barrier.

Balance in PvE isn´t that important. You soloing bosses with your revenant pre patch didn't affect me negatively🙂.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Nobody believes s/he's the "sun" though? The more hardcore players just want people to have knowledge about fundamental game mechanics - which is actually the norm in any game and especially in online-games.

But we can't keep up with your standards .

And when we come in near you the hostility arises .

 

How about you let  us enjoy us new things , just like an Legendary armor from open PvE ?

No more hostility and into a new age of harmony

[ugrakarma.9416]

1 hour ago, Stx.4857 said:

He mentioned in his patch reaction video that those were good changes because in a select few raid encounters they provided a lot of sustain.  He generally thinks about the game from the narrow mind set of a raider, which is why these traits were made useless....   I'm not saying A-net made these nerfs happen because they listened to him, I'm saying I DONT want A-net listening to a guy that only views the game from a narrow point of view, because it leads to changes like this.

lets remind the history of pvp what happened when Anet once time decided was good idea heard the so called "pro pvp'ers" suggestions. hehe.

Edited May 5, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[Raizel.8175]

1 hour ago, Luci.7018 said:

But we can't keep up with your standards .

And when we come in near you the hostility arises .

 

How about you let  us enjoy us new things , just like an Legendary armor from open PvE ?

No more hostility and into a new age of harmony

What standards? I said that people should be able to expect players to know about fundamental game mechanics - just like in any other MMORPG. Is that being evil to you now?

Harmony requires both sides to find a well-balanced compromise.  It just so seems that, well... I assume "your" side... isn't quite willing to compromise.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

12 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Boy, this thread devolved into lies and toxicity real fast.

Shame.

I wholeheartedly agree, almost any good faith discussion has been crowded out by bickering, finger-pointing, and ad homs. It's as bad as politics. 

It's time to let this thread die.

Edited May 5, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 minute ago, Raizel.8175 said:

What standards? I said that people should be able to expect players to know about fundamental game mechanics - just like in any other MMORPG. Is that being evil to you now?

Harmony requires both sides to find a well-balanced compromise.  It just so seems that, well... I assume "your" side... isn't quite willing to compromise.

His "side" being "casual" players on the forum. Which is somewhat of a contradiction. If I go for strikes and have time I hop on my druid and open an all welcome group. If given time to explain mechanics<Chains> people mostly succeed if they try. Real casual are normally willing to learn and contribute. They just cant because people Speed run that stuff and real casual don't want to be a bother and ask things. The total opposite of forum casuals.

 

Bonus for all welcome groups if you can carry they fill up in no time. I once got my squad full in a loading screen. More then enough time saved to type out boss mechanics.