What happened to respecting the customer's time?

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Seriously LFG in a freakin owpve map.. Should i look up LFG to do a few hero points as well. Also outside of raiding there nothing on LFG at all.. on my server.

People advertise so many OW events in LFG...

[Ashen.2907]

9 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Oh yes. I've very much seen that too!

The question is how they got their Writs of Dragon's End. Did they do daily conversions for 22 days? Did they farm pre events for 15 hours? Or did they fail the meta like 3 times?

I'm saying, most people I have talked to have failed the meta a few times and got their Writs that way. The merchant is a way to assure they will get it after a certain amount of failures more so than a way to avoid the event entirely.

After all, it's not like people who just enter the map would know they are underequipped and should avoid it. 

Sorry for not being more clear. I am saying that most of the people I have spoken to (I am that annoying guy who talks in squad/team chat when doing instanced content) didn't even try the meta, or at most tried it once and gave up on it.

[Ashen.2907]

4 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Seriously LFG in a freakin owpve map.. Should i look up LFG to do a few hero points as well. Also outside of raiding there nothing on LFG at all.. on my server.

1) Yeah, if you want to participate with a group in group content, looking for group can help.

2) This is not the first time I have seen you mention, "on my server," or some variation of the phrase. Do you realize that, outside of WvW, there is no distinction between servers? In PvE the only separation is between regions such as EU and NA. For WvW I am on Yak's Bend, but in PvE I can play with anyone in the NA region. If you are in the NA region there are strike and OW groups forming 24/7. My work schedule is such that my play time varies greatly and I check LFG every day. If you are EU, I don't know because I dont play there.

[Ashen.2907]

Has the OP never watched a single movie in his adult life? Never gone out to a nice dinner? I feel for someone who never has a single hour and a half block of time for themselves in their entire life.

 

That said, it can be an absolute pain when you do, finally, have a solid two hours to play in a single block and that window does not match up with the timer for the event you want to play.

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Has the OP never watched a single movie in his adult life? Never gone out to a nice dinner? I feel for someone who never has a single hour and a half block of time for themselves in their entire life.

 

That said, it can be an absolute pain when you do, finally, have a solid two hours to play in a single block and that window does not match up with the timer for the event you want to play.

There's a steep difference between having a block of a few hours at a time of free time and spending a few hours of it playing a single piece of content. Or spending several hours of it playing anything at all. There's other things to do with free time. For example, watching a movie or going out to a nice dinner.

As mentioned a few times in this thread. It's valid to have some variance and have some longer content. Or to have more difficult content.

But DE is not built to be this kind of optional side content that's only meant for medium to high performance players with a lot of time. There's too many critical paths leading into it from content that traditionally accommodated more limited playing time and lower performance. Whether it be due to not being able to or just not wanting to spend that much time on the game at once. DE doesn't set itself apart in any meaningful way while being designed for a different target audience. 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

But DE is not built to be this kind of optional side content that's only meant for high performance players with a lot of time. There's too many critical paths leading into it from content that traditionally accommodated more limited playing time and lower performance. Whether it be due to not being able to or just not wanting to spend that much time on the game at once. DE doesn't set itself apart in any meaningful way while being designed with a very different underlying philosophy. 

It is optional side content though. If someone doesn't do it they are not locked out of anything.

[yoni.7015]

14 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

There's a steep difference between having a block of a few hours at a time of free time and spending a few hours of it playing a single piece of content. Or spending several hours of it playing anything at all. There's other things to do with free time. For example, watching a movie or going out to a nice dinner.

As mentioned a few times in this thread. It's valid to have some variance and have some longer content. Or to have more difficult content.

But DE is not built to be this kind of optional side content that's only meant for medium to high performance players with a lot of time. There's too many critical paths leading into it from content that traditionally accommodated more limited playing time and lower performance. Whether it be due to not being able to or just not wanting to spend that much time on the game at once. DE doesn't set itself apart in any meaningful way while being designed for a different target audience. 

It is side content, you don’t miss anything if you don’t do it. Well, 1 AP for a story achievement and you need it for few specialization collections, but it is not mandatory to complete them. 

Edited June 5, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Erise.5614]

5 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

It is optional side content though. If someone doesn't do it they are not locked out of anything.

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

It is side content, you don’t miss anything if you don’t do it. Well, 1 AP for a story achievement and you need it for few specialization collections, but even they are not mandatory to complete. 

By those definitions, every meta is optional side content. Which can be your opinion and is fine as that.

But it still has the problem that it doesn't set itself apart from the rest, having people join with false expectations and (judging by the response to the event) quite a lot having worse experiences than necessary. 

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

By those definitions, every meta is optional side content. Which can be your opinion and is fine as that.

But it still has the problem that it doesn't set itself apart from the rest, having people join with false expectations and (judging by the response to the event) quite a lot having worse experiences than necessary. 

It doesn’t have to set itself apart from the rest. Just because it is slightly more difficult than other events? You want a big warning on your screen when entering Dragon’s End? 

[Dark Red Killian.3946]

Honestly in Dragon’s end, it’s built to take a max of 2-hours start to finish. The amount that you do is up to you. Sometimes I happened to find an organized group in lfg about an hour into the meta, gathering players to fight Soo wan. I hopped in, probably in a half an hour max to finish off Soo Wan. Granted I didn’t get all the end chests, but I was able to still get the hero’s choice chest, the freebie chests, and some of the new xtra reward chests. It is doable for someone who has less than an hour time, but I would recommend checking out event timers to see which part of the meta you’re in. If it’s just starting, then yes you probably won’t have enough time. With GW2, however there always seems to be something going on, so just find another good meta and hop in!

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

By those definitions, every meta is optional side content. Which can be your opinion and is fine as that.

Then why do you complain about DE not being optional while it is optional?

3 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

But it still has the problem that it doesn't set itself apart from the rest, having people join with false expectations and (judging by the response to the event) quite a lot having worse experiences than necessary. 

False expectations as? People expecting it to be yet another meta people run around farming? Yes, expecting that from all metas leads to false expectations.
But can you blame the game for people's expectations? You had Seitung and Kaineng, which were fairly easy, then Echovald increased the difficulty to the point that you could run out of time. At that point expecting a meta easier than the previous ones is your fault, not the game's.

[Erise.5614]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

It doesn’t have to set itself apart from the rest. Just because it is slightly more difficult than other events? You want a big warning on your screen when entering Dragon’s End? 

For example, not almost two hours of necessary pre events that do have usual OW difficulty. Or not implementing many of the standard OW content into the map (e.g. there's no fishing holes in DS either). Or giving it a different name and explaining the step up in promotional material (random example: Legendary event). Or adding a DPS check at the very beginning of the event. Or even at the beginning of the map. Locking it off to some degree and adjusting the design around it to not expect participation or completion for the locked parts of the event. 

5 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

But can you blame the game for people's expectations? You had Seitung and Kaineng, which were fairly easy, then Echovald increased the difficulty to the point that you could run out of time. At that point expecting a meta easier than the previous ones is your fault, not the game's.

Yes. Obviously the game is to blame for player expectations. It built those up for about a decade. Ending up with a game that's solid enough to keep attracting audiences in times where most of the competitors from back in the day keep declining. 

Though I do understand that both you and Yoni do prefer to blame players for their expectations and generally how they play the game. Despite the very obvious issues that many players have, you don't even consider that maybe other perspectives are valid too and that there could be ways forward where future events of this kind can be implemented in a way that doesn't cause these negative experiences, that cause less negativity, less toxicity without taking away your from fun.

 

On that note. I still don't quite understand what exactly it is you two love about the event. What core experience is it that both of you enjoy? And in what specific ways does it relate to the long duration, the "low" DPS check and to the integration of reward structures (turtle, story achievement, etc.)?

Is having large amounts of inexperienced players attempt the event part of your enjoyment? 

[yoni.7015]

16 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

For example, not almost two hours of necessary pre events that do have usual OW difficulty. Or not implementing many of the standard OW content into the map (e.g. there's no fishing holes in DS either). Or giving it a different name and explaining the step up in promotional material (random example: Legendary event). Or adding a DPS check at the very beginning of the event. Or even at the beginning of the map. Locking it off to some degree and adjusting the design around it to not expect participation or completion for the locked parts of the event. 

Yes. Obviously the game is to blame for player expectations. It built those up for about a decade. Ending up with a game that's solid enough to keep attracting audiences in times where most of the competitors from back in the day keep declining. 

Though I do understand that both you and Yoni do prefer to blame players for their expectations and generally how they play the game. Despite the very obvious issues that many players have, you don't even consider that maybe other perspectives are valid too and that there could be ways forward where future events of this kind can be implemented in a way that doesn't cause these negative experiences, that cause less negativity, less toxicity without taking away your from fun.

 

On that note. I still don't quite understand what exactly it is you two love about the event. What core experience is it that both of you enjoy? And in what specific ways does it relate to the long duration, the "low" DPS check and to the integration of reward structures (turtle, story achievement, etc.)?

Is having large amounts of inexperienced players attempt the event part of your enjoyment? 

Legendary event 😄 then you’ll be the first to come here an complain that players expected a legendary as reward and how unfair everything is! 
Why shouldn’t there be standard Open World content on the map? Last time I checked it was an Open World map, or am I wrong? 
And why do I have to justify to you why I like the event? 

Edited June 5, 2022 by yoni.7015

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

  

14 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Though I do understand that both you and Yoni do prefer to blame players for their expectations and generally how they play the game. Despite the very obvious issues that many players have, you don't even consider that maybe other perspectives are valid too and that there could be ways forward where future events of this kind can be implemented in a way that doesn't cause these negative experiences, that cause less negativity, less toxicity without taking away your from fun

"The player expects an extremely easy meta despite the previous metas going up in difficulty. It's clearly the game's fault"

[SlayerXX.7138]

52 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

For example, not almost two hours of necessary pre events that do have usual OW difficulty. Or not implementing many of the standard OW content into the map (e.g. there's no fishing holes in DS either). Or giving it a different name and explaining the step up in promotional material (random example: Legendary event). Or adding a DPS check at the very beginning of the event. Or even at the beginning of the map. Locking it off to some degree and adjusting the design around it to not expect participation or completion for the locked parts of the event. 

It is called dragons end. The whole map shouts we are preparing. The story tells you the mother of all elder dragons in controlled by a eldritch void power. People have to be honest to themselves. What people need is more events in Prep time so they can follow a train for Profitable gold per hour and loot bags in their inventory to visualize their profit. People right now can experience the map just fine, gold per hour is just bad when you fail.

 

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

I agree with op.. i gave up trying and i gave up the Kaineng event as well. Too hard for zero rewards. I have no interest in legendaries i cannot buy.. People keep telling me i don't need them in owpve so why bother chasing those carrots..

8 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Seriously LFG in a freakin owpve map.. Should i look up LFG to do a few hero points as well. Also outside of raiding there nothing on LFG at all.. on my server.

Well, at least now you seem to be more open about it. By all means, if you don't want to do it then you're free to make that decision and do whatever else you want. But then again, if you actually made that decision, there's no much of a reason to repeatedly keep announcing it on the forum? You don't want to do it, so you're not doing it. Ok. You're clearly not looking for any solution to participate in the content, since you've already got presented an easy one in form of using  LFG. But you don't want to use lfg "because oof it's OW"(?). Well... then don't. If you don't want to help yourself, then do whatever else you want ingame.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

Is having large amounts of inexperienced players attempt the event part of your enjoyment? 

It's the last meta event of the latest expansion for a 10 year old game. If "large amounts of inexperienced players" are there, apparently complaining about that event utilizing game's mechanics, then maybe they could slow down a little and gain some experience (and before you try twisting it around: them being inexperienced is your claim, not mine) instead of trying to rush content head first for.... well, what exactly did you say they were doing it for? "faster turtle" (because buying the egg from npc takes too long!), which is not needed for anything in the first place aaaand... "integration with the story"(??) literally through the existance of a 1 AP achievement (which in reality doesn't change anything about the story content itself btw). Weren't these the base for your complaints about the "unskippability" of this meta event?

Edited June 5, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Erise.5614]

19 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It's the last meta event of the latest expansion for a 10 year old game. If "large amounts of inexperienced players" are there, apparently complaining about that event utilizing game's mechanics, then maybe they could slow down a little and gain some experience (and before you try twisting it around: them being inexperienced is your claim, not mine) instead of trying to rush content head first for.... well, what exactly did you say they were doing it? "faster turtle" (because buying the egg from npc takes too long!), which is not needed for anything in the first place aaaand... "integration with the story"(??) literally through the existance of a 1 AP achievement. Weren't these the base for your complaints about the "unskippability" of this meta event?

I never said they are unskippable. I said the event is not portrayed as optional side content. Your point that DE is not mainline content but rather an irrelevant, optional side activity is a really weird hill to die on. 

 

And that's not an answer to my questions. So to keep it on topic for the thread. I would like to ask an open question to anyone who enjoys or loves DE. 

What core experience is it that you enjoy about Dragon's End?

In what specific ways does it relate to the long duration? Does it also relate to the "low" DPS check and to the integration of reward structures (turtle, story achievement, etc.)?

And should lots of players who are not experienced dealing the necessary DPS end up in Dragon's End? 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

I never said they are unskippable.

hmm... let's see:

14 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

As I keep explaining, it's not designed to be optional content.

It either is optional or it's not. And it very clearly is.

Quote

I said the event is not portrayed as optional side content.

What is this even supposed to mean? Looks like some convenient word salad that's supposed to allow you to call whatever you want however you want. Because even though it's optional and easly skippable, you can call it as something "not portrayed(?) as optional"? 🙄

Quote

Your point that DE is not mainline content but rather an irrelevant, optional side activity is a really weird hill to die on. 

That was my point when exactly? All I'm saying is that it's optional -and it clearly is.

3 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

And that's not an answer to my questions. So to keep it on topic for the thread.

People -including you and me- were talking about this exact thing for at least last 3-4 pages, so... sure.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

What core experience is it that you enjoy about Dragon's End?

 

In what specific ways does it relate to the long duration? Does it also relate to the "low" DPS check and to the integration of reward structures (turtle, story achievement, etc.)?

And should lots of players who are not experienced dealing the necessary DPS end up in Dragon's End? 

Here's my answer. I like DE meta because it actually provides some challenge in an open-world settings. Where I can join a mapful of other players to do a somewhat epic battle. That it's not just another guarantee-win boss meta that you just go to farm.

The whole meta doesn't take that much longer than some of the other metas that some people are using in reference. It just take over an hour from the start to get the necessary stacks, to the end of the meta. Players join early because they're afraid of not being able to join a squad. It's the players' choice, including mine, to spend longer than required. But I don't waste it afking after getting the stacks. There's gold in them thar hills.

The DE meta is not a required event for anyone.

And can we stop with the constant DPS check you love to mention in tons of your comments? Organized and successful squad of 50 will always have a fair number of those not dealing the necessary DPS. And there will always be those not in squads who may fall in that category. It's an open-world meta. It will have all types of players.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Dante.1508]

9 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

YES. Having trouble getting a certain hero point? Shout it out in map chat, or put up a group in LFG. Or just join the regular HP trains when they're running.

And in case you haven't gotten the years-old news, individual servers only matter in WvW. The PVE world is a megaserver. Everyone on NA is playing with everyone else on NA. So to say "There's nothing in LFG on my server" shows a lack of understanding how this game works.

So because i'm relegated to US off peak i'm SoL, right great, i do call for HP in hot occasionally, i'm usually met with the "HP train" is already gone through you'll have to wait a few hours for the next one.. (i move on to other easier content thats not hot..) No wonder hot is dead these days...

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

Here's my answer. I like DE meta because it actually provides some challenge in an open-world settings. Where I can join a mapful of other players to do a somewhat epic battle. That it's not just another guarantee-win boss meta that you just go to farm.

Apologies if this seems obvious to you. But I want to make sure to not misunderstand everything.

What exactly do you find challenging about the encounter?

And how should I understand the last sentence? Are you saying you enjoy the meta because you sometimes fail it? 

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

The whole meta doesn't take that much longer than some of the other metas that some people are using in reference. It just take over an hour from the start to get the necessary stacks, to the end of the meta. Players join early because they're afraid of not being able to join a squad. It's the players' choice, including mine, to spend longer than required. But I don't waste it afking after getting the stacks. There's gold in them thar hills.

But isn't that fear justified? If you do try to participate as short as possible, would that not seriously affect your win rate or at least when and how often you get to attempt the meta? 

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

And can we stop with the constant DPS check you love to mention in tons of your comments? Organized and successful squad of 50 will always have a fair number of those not dealing the necessary DPS. And there will always be those not in squads who may fall in that category. It's an open-world meta. It will have all types of players.

The reason I call it a DPS check is because it does require above average OW DPS performance. You can see a direct correlation between DPS during the first phase and whether the meta succeeds or fails. Like, it's basically a 1:1 correlation. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Gibson.4036]

On 6/4/2022 at 4:41 PM, Erise.5614 said:

Truly a mystery how anyone could think the turtle was a big part of the expansion.

You don’t even need the cup, a dev flat out said it was a featured part of the expansion during one of the live streams.

Since I don’t visit EOD zones much anymore, it’s become one of the biggest parts of the expansion for me, as it wanders after me breathing down my neck when I’m visiting the bank in Arborstone.

Pro tip, if you aren’t going to get the saddle, DO NOT feed the thing.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Sobx.1758]

9 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

You don’t even need the cup, a dev flat out said it was a featured part of the expansion during one of the live streams.

...and what do you think "featured part of the expansion" means? Since apparently we have different ideas about it, if you think it changes anything about what was said here?

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Donari.5237]

2 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

And that's not an answer to my questions. So to keep it on topic for the thread. I would like to ask an open question to anyone who enjoys or loves DE. 

What core experience is it that you enjoy about Dragon's End?

In what specific ways does it relate to the long duration? Does it also relate to the "low" DPS check and to the integration of reward structures (turtle, story achievement, etc.)?

And should lots of players who are not experienced dealing the necessary DPS end up in Dragon's End? 

Well, let's see.  First, I'll admit that I have a near 100% win rate in DE.  This is because after one fail, I saw a very nice player's post on these forums that she was leading DE squads, and I joined her Discord and all the runs have been wins, even the ones that were half PuGged due to not having fifty regulars available that particular evening.  The squad is now closing in on 100 wins.  I have not been in every run, as I have other commitments several evenings of the week.  But this means I have not felt the frustration with DE that many here express.

Also, I remember how undoable the revamped Tequatl was when it came out, and Shatterer too, and Triple Trouble, and even Dragon's Stand.  Of those, only TT still needs a dedicated organized group, and there are such groups that do it routinely and invite all in that wish to join.  So I believe that in time DE will be like that as the community learns it.

So what core experience I enjoy -- being part of a team.  Our leader is kind and giving.  She is always delighted when someone new to the meta joins a run.  She does require joining her Discord to hear callouts, but non-hearing players can just read the guide in the Discord and then read the text callouts the lieutenant pastes into chat.  There are giveaways in the Discord, and lots of support.  No one gets yelled at for mistakes in the fight.

The long duration -- I could do without that.  We form up half an hour in advance.  At a quarter of we all rush the gate to try to find a fresh map, then quickly join on whoever landed in such a map.  Then we go build up our stacks and map readiness.  Usually we have at least thirty minutes once all that's done, in which one squaddie leads the raptor and springer race achieves, people map complete, light lanterns, etc, and our leader explains the meta to new folks.  But I would greatly prefer for a fresh map to give about 30 minutes to build stacks, then the one hour meta, then 30 more minutes optional for map achieves for those that wish to stay.  2.5 hours is a lot to spend on one focused activity, no matter how fun the group makes the time.

Low DPS players -- Sure.  They need to learn.  In a fifty player squad plus an overflow group, there's room for some not to be min-maxed (our squad encourages bringing whatever builds you want to use, albeit strongly requests a good amount of personal cc and wants guardians to have Stand Your Ground and necros to have Epidemic, and if someone asks for guidance on how to use what they've brought it is provided in a respectful manner).  I'm pretty sure I'm not rocking max dps, certainly I wasn't when I was rotating in a bunch of alts in seldom-played professions to get the elite weapon parts, and I've always felt welcome.  The meta does require dps, especially right after breaking Su-Won's bar, but it more requires doing the right thing at the right time and trying to have decent support in each subgroup so as to boost everyone's dps.