Can we get a clear concise thread from the community on how they want Banners to work?

[Knighthonor.4061]

As the title say. Can we get some sort of clear concise discussion from the Warrior Community without Trolls/Meme posts explaining how they want banners to actually work?      

       

I been browsing over the forum, and most of the feedback seem to be of the outrage of the balance leak, as well as the poorly received design of the Banners in the recent patch.     

       

Which is understandable.  But now can we talk and debate about how the community wants the banners to work?       

 

Because I know there is a lot of division ➗️ in that area as well.     

      

I may be in the minority here, 

But for me personally, I want the old vanilla Environmental Weapon Design for Banners( which ended March 5th 2019) but with Modern (post HoT game design) skills on the Banner for support and combat.  Compassionate Banner skill with better support mechanics like a heal that scales on number of enemies hit. Would make for an Interesting front line support fighter.

 

Skills like Whirlwind Banner, could have a improved mechanic that's fun to use, such as creating a encircling visual effect similar to Dwarf Revenant Underwater Path skill, which would provide stability on the move to nearby allies that are in the visual effect. 

 

Well something that powerful would need to be exclusive to the Warrior using the Banner and not any and everybody,  but there are many ways to handle that as well. Make it so other players pick up the Banner have shared cool down, or have a different weaker list of skills. I prefer the shared cool down method,  because it allows Warriors with Banners to drop banners for specific geared allies in the squad to make best use of the banner. Such a mechanic would allow an ally in support gear to make use of the Banner of Healing skills, while the Warrior carry on with whatever role its built for. That could be a cool floor general role in battle.

 

But those are some of my ideas. I know lot of people won't agree with them, but I just want to put them on the table and hope to see other ideas on how they want banners to work.

[eXruina.4956]

they can use the search bar, years worth of suggestions right there, from credible warrior mains about the things they need to address. i'm pretty sure they're all tired of re-typing their feedback over the years. i know i am.

 

not counting wether or not any of it was being taken into consideration in the first place.

 

and its not just about banners.

 

what you're asking is heartbreaking at this point. are you a dev? are you going to address said problems? right now if thats not the case does it really matter given what we now know about the whole process?

[Sigmoid.7082]

1 hour ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

Can we get some sort of clear concise discussion from the Warrior Community without Trolls/Meme posts explaining how they want banners to actually work?

 

1 hour ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

But those are some of my ideas. I know lot of people won't agree with them

And that's part of the problem. You're never going to get a clear decision from a community on exactly how something should work because different people went different things. 

 

The only clear thing is the sentiment that "this needs to be changed". 

[Hotride.2187]

For what? So it rots like other summary threads?

What you probably want instead is "how do players want banners to work with next to 0 effort from the devs". For that they'll have to disclose their code, so someone can look into it and suggest changes. Cause that is literally the next step after giving feedback on a forum...

Edited June 29, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[JTGuevara.9018]

So, first off let me make one thing crystal clear before I put my constructive hat on: the outrage is not going away. The pitchforks are already out. They're not going back. Warriors have been beyond patient over the years. I believe we have earned this grievance. Unlike many others, I actually have the patience to put on this constructive hat for this moment.

Ok, constructive hat on:

I've never actually put forth a suggestion for banners before, but here goes:

In my opinion, each banner should function as a kit or a weapon that you swap into instead of picking and dropping it on the ground. Basically, like engineer. Each press of the utility skill would replace the weapon skills with banner skills that would grant boons to allies and some CC as well. To switch to another banner, you would just press the utility skill for that specific banner and you would immediately swap to that bundle of banner skills. All banners would grant initial stability when swapped into. The reason for the swap mechanics is so that warrior is not distracted with tediously picking up and dropping banners, the warrior could actually concentrate on supporting their allies. There...that's a start. I would do the 1 - 5 skills for each banner, but I'm tired and it's late.
The gist of it is that Banner of Strength would grant might and fear. Banner of Defense would focus on protection, resistance and stability. Banner of Tactics would grant regeneration, cripple and knockdown. The CCs would be triggered through sorts of trap mechanics. (Think of a general using the banner to signal for an ambush...). Banner of Discipline would focus on fury, swiftness and quickness.

Edited June 29, 2022 by JTGuevara.9018
typo

[The Boz.2038]

I *very* much like the way Herald Facets work. I think Banners could easily do that.

Take this for a generic mechanics example:
Raise Banner Of Whatever - Click once to raise the banner, put it on your back, 1/2 cast time. Pulse a 2s boon every 3s with an internal ammo system; each pulse consumes 1 ammo. Base banners have 8 ammo. Gain Plant Banner flip-over skill.
Plant Banner of Whatever - Click to throw the banner to a place within 900, with a 360 radius, 1/2 cast time. End the pulsing boons effect; replaced with a different effect that pulses every 1s, consuming the remaining ammo. Places Banner on a 40s cooldown (80 for the elite).
The internal ammo system somewhat replaces the Herald's energy, limiting the uptime of each banner's effect. Once planted, the banner fades away within 3 seconds normally; this is a tell in PvP which banner is used up and unavailable for the cooldown.

Banners themselves:
Raise Banner of Defense - Pulses Resistance. Plant to remove 1 condition from allies.
Raise Banner of Discipline - Pulses Fury. Plant to grant +15% damage (strike and condition) to allies for 1 second.
Raise Banner of Strength - Pulses Might (10s duration - exception). Plant to execute a 0.6 + 0.15/ammo Power AoE strike.
Raise Banner of Tactics - Pulses Regeneration. Plant for AoE stun-break.
Raise Battle Standard - Pulses Stability. Plant to 20% revive and 20% finish in AoE.

Doubled Standards - Raising a banner grants 6s Quickness to allies. Banners have 12 ammo.

[Jzaku.9765]

You're never going to actually get people to agree on one specific idea. The best you can do is not participate in all the duplicate outrage threads and try to keep actual constructive feedback threads alive.

[eXruina.4956]

its a waste of time, some people even eagerly posted feedback, there was even a posts in here saying "Grouch" was looking into it, i won't be surprised if it is all a charade.

 

remember that balance patch a few years ago, remember their promises? balance and trade offs, timely balance updates to address issues, yeah. i remember, i was totally sold. finally i said to myself, just be patient, they'll push something out eventually.

 

months, years, still nothing.

 

years into the future today look at where warrior is, that feb 2020 balance patch decimated warrior gameplay in competitive. warrior got nothing back, and were left to rot.

 

that is not counting prior to that patch, their band aid fixes and half measures, only to leave messes left after they ripped the band aid off over the years. they did introduce fixes, then gutted them to minimal or non-functionality and there was a lot of collateral damage. always leaving warrior worse than it was. compounding!!

 

now, you expect us to wait how many more years exactly?

 

 there's a disconnect between the community? and devs? and the elite? we are all individuals, heck even devs and elite will argue with among themselves and have varying points of views. thats not an excuse for incompetence. what are the results? did they push a well balanced environment out? not even close, the power gaps between classes and power level are HUGE in this game. You'd understand a small gap, despite design and mechanics. but to know that nothing was being done to address it.

 

IN FACT the gap between classes is so huge and far gone, that if they even made a miniscule attempt to close that gap it would be evident as night and day, its that far gone.

 

i stuck with the game. i love this game. the horizontal progression, the community, even anet actually, good people mostly,

 

i've seen people come and go, and unfold over the years. feb 2020 should've made me quit. and if i was gonna quit i should've done so earlier, i shouldn't have spent money on the game, bought expansions, worked on objectives, etc.. i should've just quit. and not stuck with it for 8+ years.

 

thats how i as a consumer feel. i can't put everything into words. and i might *not speak my mind properly because honestly i'm kinda overwhelmed by the audacity at this point.

Edited June 29, 2022 by eXruina.4956

[eXruina.4956]

they want feedback, go find it there's a search bar, YEARS of feedback, if they're gonna do something about it, do something about it.

they have 0 credibility as of now.

i bet in their minds "what choice do they have?" they're technically right, *censored (can't name names here) is technically right in his/her multiple posts, and cited this multiple times, anet doesn't give an f" and.. what choice do we have?

quit the game. i've heard this as a solution many times. this is their solution for their dedicated player base. this is anet's stance apparently. this is the dev's stance. the elite's stance. quit the game.

why did they even make the game in the first place? to sell? well they sold what now? to get content for streams? ok? i know why i stuck with the game. it was the community at the time.

they were so friendly. i mean they'd die just to res you. who does that? some people say its stupid. they did it anyway. selfless good natured. trying to help those around them. thats what got me dedicated to the game.

then everything followed, the horizontal progression, the casual gameplay, i found i was always relevant, and i can see the things i worked towards at the end.

i remember why i mained warrior, i remember watching youtube videos choosing a class, i was watching this warrior, "rising raiden" and his outnumbered videos, i gained a vision, i was inspired, i will be this warrior someday, i will be shiny someday, and i worked towards that.

just an old charr rambling after 8+ years of adventure.

them telling us to quit? and that we are unskilled? disconnected from the best of the best?  i'm a bad warrior, i'm right here, and there are more of us than you think, "bad" players. we are just chill is all. and we love the game.

i'm calling it now, they don't love the game, maybe its just work, idk and idc, but if thats the case, do your jobs.

you have no right to belittle us who do love the game.

Edited July 4, 2022 by eXruina.4956

[Lighter.5631]

Does it matter what we want? Because there's not a single suggestion is align to what they delivered lololol.

Nobody ever wanted this version of banner ever

[eXruina.4956]

i'll be honest that feb 2020 patch, broke me  as much as it broke warrior, the non-existent follow through on the promises of balance, trade offs, counterplay, frequent and relevant balance updates, etc, broke me.

 

irl end of 2019 i was sick, bp and heart problems, barely touched the game. pre-purchased eod regardless, still hopeful that they'll follow through. it wasn't gonna happen overnight, maybe they just needed time, maybe, a few more years. xD

 

this patch? and the truth behind it? seeing comments put out by the so called best of the best players? watching feedback of some notable people from streams?

 

kitten, why are any of us playing this game huh? we should all just quit.

Edited June 29, 2022 by eXruina.4956

[Lighter.5631]

It's not like we don't know there's multiple different suggestion but never this kind. Ever

 

 This is disgusting and a disgrace and an insult to the community

 

If you really have trouble understanding

 

The community:

A: i want an apple

B: i want a banana

C maybe orange would be nice too

 

Anet: here's some crap now eat it

 

Would've been fine if we gotten any apple banana orange or even strawberry, but nah, just pure crap instead

 

So stop with this bs post, "oh it's all community fault for not knowing what exactly they want, so we give you crap instead''

We all know it's impossible to have one opinion in a community

You need to start thinking before posting next time

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Lighter.5631

[DanAlcedo.3281]

To be brutally honest. 

I don't care what buffs they give. I want QoL!

Banners are annoying as duck to use. 

Let us teleport them to our location like Ranger spirits, make them like Scrapper wells, let us mount them on our back, duck it! Let me throw the kitten thing to a new location. 

ANYTHING!!! 

MAKE THEM FUN TO USE GORSH DARN IT!!!! 

[Sykper.6583]

There's no one answer, there have been significant banner suggestions made over years in the forum or on reddit, and nothing has stuck. In fact one of the only suggestions made that made it into the game was allowing banners to recharge cooldown if picked up early. That's the singular instance where the Devs might have seen our feedback and acted on it.

 

Current banners are the worst iteration of banners ever seen, banners were the lifeline in Warrior PvE on a high end that was woefully removed. It's more depressing if anything. If there's any consultation, any hanging thread of hope, it is that someone might pay attention now to Warrior changes once the profession participation drops in game, whether it be word of mouth or people actively not bringing Warriors to instanced content. When it starts becoming a social issue, the next miracle would be praying that a Warrior Rework happens.

 

But really that's all Copium from me.

[eXruina.4956]

3 hours ago, Sykper.6583 said:

There's no one answer, there have been significant banner suggestions made over years in the forum or on reddit, and nothing has stuck. In fact one of the only suggestions made that made it into the game was allowing banners to recharge cooldown if picked up early. That's the singular instance where the Devs might have seen our feedback and acted on it.

 

Current banners are the worst iteration of banners ever seen, banners were the lifeline in Warrior PvE on a high end that was woefully removed. It's more depressing if anything. If there's any consultation, any hanging thread of hope, it is that someone might pay attention now to Warrior changes once the profession participation drops in game, whether it be word of mouth or people actively not bringing Warriors to instanced content. When it starts becoming a social issue, the next miracle would be praying that a Warrior Rework happens.

 

But really that's all Copium from me.

its not just about banners. the problem isn't just banners, warrior has been suffering from years of neglect, bad balance, and collateral damage of overly heavy handed nerfs, only for us to find out that it was all intentionally done to bring us grief.

 

as an example, if arc divider was strong, they could've just nerfed arc divider directly, INSTEAD they nerfed arc divider numbers, slowed the animation to a crawl, slowed headbutt animation to a crawl, slowed shield bash animation to a crawl. etc. eventually removed normal burst from berserker killing it in competitive game modes like wvw and pvp. now headbutt and shield bash do 1 damage. ^~^

 

AND THAT IS  JUST 1 EXAMPLE OVER YEARS.

 

now we find out they've been doing things like this on purpose for years, belittling and berating us. ITS NOT JUST ABOUT FIXING BANNERS, ITS ABOUT FIXING WARRIOR.

[Vancho.8750]

Just to point out that people have been quite reasonable for quite a long time on this side of the forum discussing problems and ideas, but for it we got Bladesworn cause who ever designed it didn't even glance at the info, but we did influence the creation of Willbender and pretty sure that the current RATATATA engi rifle rework is from somewhere here also( but the ratatata idea had some mechanics tied to it instead of just pressing 1). 

It is a memesorm in here cause whatever idea we post  it wont make it to warrior, but it could land on another profession, and it feels like it is out of spite. So there is not point in suggesting new stuff, cause they have been discussed to death, while the great banner rework shows that Anet just doesn't give a kitten. So shitposting feels way more fun, being constructive nets you garbage. 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Vancho.8750

[JTGuevara.9018]

2 hours ago, eXruina.4956 said:

its not just about banners. the problem isn't just banners, warrior has been suffering from years of neglect, bad balance, and collateral damage of overly heavy handed nerfs, only for us to find out that it was all intentionally done to bring us grief.

 

as an example, if arc divider was strong, they could've just nerfed arc divider directly, INSTEAD they nerfed arc divider numbers, slowed the animation to a crawl, slowed headbutt animation to a crawl, slowed shield bash animation to a crawl. etc. eventually removed normal burst from berserker killing it in competitive game modes like wvw and pvp. now headbutt and shield bash do 1 damage. ^~^

 

AND THAT IS  JUST 1 EXAMPLE OVER YEARS.

 

now we find out they've been doing things like this on purpose for years, belittling and berating us. ITS NOT JUST ABOUT FIXING BANNERS, ITS ABOUT FIXING WARRIOR.

The Headbutt and Shield Bash nerfs pissed me off for years. WHY did they need to be touched? They were fine. For the Headbutt I have to sacrifice a stun-break just to use it! Yet you slow it down?!

[Dadnir.5038]

I can't tell you how people want banners to work but I sure can tell you that nobody want banners to work like they do right now.

Truth of the matter is that the banner mechanism is at fault. They are long lasting skills with long CD which is absolutely unfun to play wether they are planted on the ground of carried by someone. It was somewhat bearable as long as the banners filled a niche with their unique buffs but it's no longer the case now that their buffs have been standardized.

 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

We can all agree that they should not lock your skills and utilities, should be mobile on you and pulse the boons and you should be able to carry them. 

Thats the 3 points of interest. 

What boons, if there is gonna be a flipover skill, if they can be used an engineering kits, it doesnt matter. 

[ButterPeanut.9746]

IMO there is no need to have banners as a utility type to exist anymore. There isn't anything that is so fun/enjoyable about the banners are a type that need to be kept. It was really just the fact that they were good. 

Banners could be changed to be a kit, and maybe they give you new 1-5 skills that you can enable just like engi kits. 

Banners could be changed to be like a facet on herald where they do something initially and then there is a "flip over" skill (or like druid glyphs)

Banners could be changed to be something basic like wells. 

 

The action of dropping something on the battle field for the warrior to pick up could just be removed IMO, regardless of how good any possible future state is where "picking it up" does something specific. Just delete the entire mechanic . 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Whatever you want banners to be, here's the bitter truth of what core warriors cannot be - supports.
Many of you seem to think you're entitled to having group quickness uptimes comparable to supportive e-specs.
No, you're not. And there's a good reason why.

If a core spec ever had full on support capabilities, it's e-specs would have extremely limited power and feature budgets, because whatever they do, they're already a full fledged support by grace of core existing. That's why even the guardian, a-net's favourite blue baby has very limited group quickness access on his core spec.

Core warrior supporting is about simple, low cost and effective ways to continually boost allies' offensive capabilities, mixed with occasional saves (elite banner ress, "Shake it off!" stunbreak, shout heals, warnhorn barrier).

The banners will have to follow these core class design directions, whatever may they become in the end.

Edited June 29, 2022 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[JTGuevara.9018]

10 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Whatever you want banners to be, here's the bitter truth of what core warriors cannot be - supports.
Many of you seem to think you're entitled to having group quickness uptimes comparable to supportive e-specs.
No, you're not. And there's a good reason why.

If a core spec ever had full on support capabilities, it's e-specs would have extremely limited power and feature budgets, because whatever they do, they're already a full fledged support by grace of core existing. That's why even the guardian, a-net's favourite blue baby has very limited group quickness access on his core spec.

Core warrior supporting is about simple, low cost and effective ways to continually boost allies' offensive capabilities, mixed with occasional saves (elite banner ress, "Shake it off!" stunbreak, shout heals, warnhorn barrier).

The banners will have to follow these core class design directions, whatever may they become in the end.

I think we DESERVE to be "entitled" after the shitshow we experienced.

[oscuro.9720]

Sure, here’s precisely how I think banners would function best; 

 

[firedragon.8953]

Probably pointless to even dream, but here's an idea. Anything would be better than the current implementation, but I'll try to borrow some inspiration from the current implementation. **shudder**

They should replace all banners (see warcry, below) except for Battle Standard.
When placing Battle Standard, you get the same downed/rez effect and it provides up to 5 allies with protection for 3s. No other effects are provided if kept on the ground.
Picking up Battle Standard replaces your offhand weapon giving you access to 2 "warcry" abilities until weapon swap or time runs out (30s) (120sec recharge). The banner cannot be placed back on the ground and will be "unsummoned" upon weapon swap (tradeoff between offhand and second weapon set for the two following skills). The two skills given could be warcries that apply fear (1s) to enemies within a certain radius and the other providing stability (3s) to allies. Warcries are an ammo skill that works similar to shouts (radius effect).

Quickness should not be a banner effect. It should be given every time a burst skill is used (if traited with Martial Cadence in tactics) and not dependent on Soldier's Focus. Also available on one of the following banner replacement skills (see below).

Banner of Defense, Discipline, Strength, Tactics, should all be replaced with warcries (see special off-hand skills for Battle Standard Above).

Cry of Defense - Gives aegis and resistance.
Cry of Discipline - Gives quickness (base 2 sec.) and fury.
Cry of Strength - Gives 5 stacks of might to allies and 5 stacks of vulnerability to enemies.
Cry of Tactics - Gives regeneration and swiftness.

Replace "Double Standards" in Discipline with "Honed Precision" or something like that providing 15% more base crit chance since axe/adrenaline synergy is vital for power berserker.

The reason for this is to encourage more "active playstyle" and be able to compete with Firebrand, especially in encounters that prefer power damage. The warcry skills don't focus on providing standard boons (this should honestly be passive because spamming off CD is BORING if anet wants to go with "everyone has the option for essential boons"), but rather situational boons such as aegis and regeneration with an option to bring things like might and fury if your team has trouble doing so and regeneration to support shout warrior builds, the quickness is just there to add for some flexibility if not building for burst spam. Battle Standard is also situational, and could save your team in a bad situation and even allow you to prepare stability (eat it firebrand!).

[Grim West.3194]

Get rid of banners. They are a stupid mechanic, always have been. Doesn't fit the class in any way.

 

Have hated them since launch, and have never used them. I refuse to be a banner slave.