Please anet dont forget vindicator exists

[Thornwolf.9721]

On 7/9/2022 at 8:53 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Here is a fact that will blow you away. It's not necessary for vindicator to be competitive in team content if better options exist. Here are few reasons why:

1. It never has been necessary. There are dozens of specs that aren't competitive in team content in this game, since always. This is not an exception that Anet needs to fix. It's a standard that players need to recognize. 

2. The dual legend is unlikely to be 'fixed' so that it's competitive in a team setting while providing BOTH competitive capability offensively or defensively. You're going to point me to a handful of specs that sort of do both those things. That's OK ... I'm going to point you to WAY more that don't. Aiming for the OP'ed state of these exceptional specs is a BAD thing for the class and the game. 

3. It's not unreasonable to regard an espec as an open world focused spec. That doesn't exclude anyone from actually using it with a team that doesn't have a problem with that. In otherwords ... there are OTHER choices you have not considered if Vindicator is the spec you want to use in team content. 

I'm not saying it CAN'T work as a competitive team member if it's boosted; anything can be boosted to do that. I'm saying it unlikely be boosted just to make it 'work' as a competitive team member for the reasons I state above. it's just not necessary for Anet to make EVERY spec compete for a team spot.  

In fact, I would argue the spec should be more inline with its theme duality of selfish offense and selfless defense ... and that's the opposite of making it competitive for a specific role in a team. 

You're just advocating a change that isn't inline with the theme of the spec. 

And I'll raise you one. If it's as you say then it shouldn't exist, Remove it and remake it into something else thats easier to balance and has a defined role that it can fit into. I don't care what that nessacarily is but in it's current state if it can't double dip (Which was its intended design, clearly. ) Then it shouldn't be a thing. 

And those handful of specs; Nerf em. all of em. Into the ground. Force them into defined roles, give us a hard trinity and stop being incompetent with your game design; Because clearly the dev's have lost whatever little bit of creativity they had left prior to icebrood saga. 

Defend it all you want but honestly, I'd rather them just straight up rip it out of the game and give us ANYTHING else then leave it in a state where it is inferior not only to its fellow rev's but legitimately everything else. 

I'm sick to death of their excuses, tired of their pathetic attempts of a "We're sorry". Get it done. Just get something done. You messed around so much with this class and made changes based off the wiki as the leaks basically confirm they only balance what they play. (Guardian, necro and engie) while the rest just kind of get whatever scraps they deem worth throwing at them. 

So enough is enough... you can white knight all you want, defend them. This time I will spend the entire thread fighting with you about it until one of them comes in here and removes the thread; Because I am that sick and tired of them messing up and ripping apart MY personal favorite and preferred class. Screw the others. Screw all of em; I'm not here for them and I don't play as much because the one I do like is basically being hit with the bat of "We don't know what to do with you, so its... whatever the dice lands on." balancing decisions. 

It needs to be fixed. Especially due to our limited options for builds on the skill/trait end. If you're going to choose a legend it had better be strong enough to do the job; And I think sure vindi isn't terrible I guess. But it's not much better then some of the other aspects of rev... and as someone who loathes renegade and won't touch it... I'm basically stuck to herald or core. Which is fine as I've submitted myself to the fact that whatever they do will never hold a candle to rev at its launch state and how fun it was... but I do feel bad for me vindicator brethren. 

[Obtena.7952]

18 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

And I'll raise you one. If it's as you say then it shouldn't exist, 

And I will stop you there because nothing I said should give you the indication Vindicator shouldn't exist. Not only should it exist, I think it should have a more pronounced duality between red and blue. That means likely, it ISN'T a good team player. That's not a problem ... we have TWO especs that are going to be enabled for teaming. 

There isn't a problem with Vindicator not filling a team role. Lots of especs aren't assigned a team role, at least not yet. Until that happens, don't assume that giving it a team role will make it easier to balance. It's in fact the OPPOSITE since balancing for performance and in a role are two layers of balancing Anet need to accomplish instead of one. They can't even do the former, what makes you think it will be easier if they have to do both?

Edited July 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Buran.3796]

18 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

And those handful of specs; Nerf em. all of em. Into the ground. Force them into defined roles, give us a hard trinity

   Wait, Guardian, Engineer and Necro isn't hard enough trinity? We have also Virtusoso for pure dps goals...

[Thornwolf.9721]

23 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

And I will stop you there because nothing I said should give you the indication Vindicator shouldn't exist. Not only should it exist, I think it should have a more pronounced duality between red and blue. That means likely, it ISN'T a good team player. That's not a problem ... we have TWO especs that are going to be enabled for teaming. 

There isn't a problem with Vindicator not filling a team role. Lots of especs aren't assigned a team role, at least not yet. Until that happens, don't assume that giving it a team role will make it easier to balance. It's in fact the OPPOSITE since balancing for performance and in a role are two layers of balancing Anet need to accomplish instead of one. They can't even do the former, what makes you think it will be easier if they have to do both?

There is a problem, it exists in its current state. I wont let you stop me at all because your point is invalid as is your opinion, your view and your experience. (Doesn't feel so good now does it?) You people; The ones who white knight I find facilitating. You will defend and shill for everything a company does regardless of the ramifications to the broader audience. Im the one saying it shouldn't exist in its current form; And I'll stand by it. It's trash and the person who designed it had no clue how, what or why revenant worked.

I'll be happy to have a discussion when you explain in a non-biased way why this is acceptable. Because its not. We technically paid for the spec, it should be functional and at the very least serviceable and on all accounts its not. Its cumbersome , it doesn't feel good to play at all and more importantly it's only fun when it comes down to the sounds and effects. Skill wise is a big yikes. Their functionally worthless and the nerfs and changes to them have only ensured that.

There is a reason why many of the people I used to play with continue to leave; End of dragons didn't fix that. The classes they play dont feel good and no amount of stupid PvE grind, shiny legendaries and lukewarm story is going to counter that. They need to fix the game and how it feels when playing it, otherwise everything else will mean nothing.

[Thornwolf.9721]

18 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Wait, Guardian, Engineer and Necro isn't hard enough trinity? We have also Virtusoso for pure dps goals...

Don't play those classes, so I don't care. Similarly to the dev's themselves lol

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

There is a problem, it exists in its current state. 

OK, I don't disagree that Vindicator has things it could do better. I'm simply not in agreement that the fixes for those things need to be aimed at a goal of Vindicator being meta for a team. Remember, OP wants Vindicator to be competitive power DPS. There isn't a reason for that to happen. It doesn't fix the problems it has. It doesn't align with the wide access to the skillset Vindicator has. It's not inline with maintaining balance between the red/blue sides of the spec.

I mean, if you're just going to argue that Anet should just scrap the concept and do it over ... Good Luck. You have nothing to reply to me about then, nor I to you. I have no illusion that even if they do that, it might not be better than what we already have ... not sure what convinces you otherwise. Wishful thinking is not a reason to support every complaint for something you don't like. 

The 'need to be team-worthy' argument is not a silver bullet fix for whatever ails Vindicator. Some scrutiny is necessary here to ensure we don't get 'fixes' for things that aren't problems while the problems persist. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Jees.5478]

I droped Gw2 after the patch. I liked Vindicator a lot and before the patch he was somehow ok but now hes trash as a dps. I bought Eod because of him and it was a waste of money. Arenanet already benched him. He has so many bugs to. I dont complain about the dodge because i got used to it. I complain about the weak dps.

 

My friend wanted to buy gw2 for 50 bucks (all expansion packs) but I sayed that i do not play gw2 for now. So he didn't buy it.

 

Its sad because Vindicator was a lot of fun. I still come and check the forum for buffs but yeah still nothing.

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

In what world rev is god tier supp after a million nerfs they did to it???????? Are u sure u are not talking about mechanist and fb??? And look how they hot fixed slb dps after they messed up, do u rllllyy think they cant do the same for vind? 

It has nothing to do with what Anet can do. It has everything to do with IF they would do it. There are lots of reasons presented in this thread that suggests making Vindicator a competitive power DPS build is unlikely, none of which you have considered or replied to. 

[Angesombre.4630]

I don't think it was made only for the heal knowing that there is already ventari and that they redid it in addition, so if he has to do the two things heal and dps .if he doesn't do dps correctly well I don't see the point

Edited July 15, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

I don't think it was made only for the heal knowing that there is already ventari and that they redid it in addition, so if he has to do the two things heal and dps .if he doesn't do dps correctly well I don't see the point

What do you mean do it 'correctly'? because from where I sit, if the INTENT is duality between a selfless support and a selfish DPS, neither of those are ever going to be buffed to meta level relevant for optimal team builds. If that's true, then I doubt there is much more bandwidth for more DPS to get added. I mean, is there a way to incorrectly do DPS?

Edited July 15, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Angesombre.4630]

If we compare the FB with the vindi, he does everything, buff, DPS and heal while the vindi heal correct, very limited buff and average DPS. I would not take the example of the engineer either who does things well.

[Arolandis.8360]

Anet, please also un-nerf Hammer in WvW.

That's the only 1200 ranged weapon Revs have and it was nerfed recently once again and it's pretty ridiculous. The forums talked about this then, too, and were also ignored with this.

I'm honestly getting fed up. I play this game to unwind after long days and here we are having a team of people getting paid to ruin our fun (basically).

Elementalists should also have a little bit of damage placed back onto Meteor Shower. NO it's not fun to die to big damage in pvp-type modes, but classes SHOULD feel dangerous and people will learn to keep an eye out. Let people lrn2play and stop overtuning things please.

Put away your spreadsheets and listen to the community.

[Artificer.3468]

 

On 7/14/2022 at 9:29 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

OK, I don't disagree that Vindicator has things it could do better. I'm simply not in agreement that the fixes for those things need to be aimed at a goal of Vindicator being meta for a team. Remember, OP wants Vindicator to be competitive power DPS. There isn't a reason for that to happen. It doesn't fix the problems it has. It doesn't align with the wide access to the skillset Vindicator has. It's not inline with maintaining balance between the red/blue sides of the spec.

 

Couldn't that be addressed with either a damage coefficient buff and/or a trait rework to allow it to lean harder in one direction? I mean gear basically already works that way

 

Not to mention you're not locked into picking alliance either but you dont get a bonus for forsaking that versatility. 

 

Is there a reason for it to not be competitive power dps outside of anet just feeling like it?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Artificer.3468
Leftover of an old message

[Obtena.7952]

48 minutes ago, Artificer.3468 said:

 

Couldn't that be addressed with either a damage coefficient buff and/or a trait rework to allow it to lean harder in one direction? I mean gear basically already works that way

I could be but my point is that it's unlikely for the reasons I'm giving continuously. 

48 minutes ago, Artificer.3468 said:

 

Not to mention you're not locked into picking alliance either but you dont get a bonus for forsaking that versatility. 

 

Is there a reason for it to not be competitive power dps outside of anet just feeling like it?

I can think of numerous reasons Vindicator wouldn't be competitive power DPS. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

If we compare the FB with the vindi, he does everything, buff, DPS and heal while the vindi heal correct, very limited buff and average DPS. I would not take the example of the engineer either who does things well.

Well, sure ANYTHING compared to the currently OP'ed classes in the game looks deficient. That doesn't indicate to me Vindicator needs competitive DPS though. 

[Angesombre.4630]

So we come back to the beginning, what is his role?

[Mike.7983]

Vid created last November, same issues still same crap.  Class needs overhaul now, worst in game.

 

 

[Angesombre.4630]

The problem with the specialization is that it was designed like the herald with a skill reversal that is no longer present.

Still buggy though it has been repeated a number of times.

The music sums it up well and it is good.

Not a good DPS, no barrier like scourge or spectrum, no buff like FB or ing, decent heal (only good thing but it's not hybrid) not good mobility, predictable and long dodge that costs a lot and I don't know if the alterations are really good with this legend. GS skills to review with the nerf on it, no atleration on the weapon and Bugguer especially.

I forgot it can have another use the RP even if I don't do it.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

So we come back to the beginning, what is his role?

Anet never gave Vindicator a role for teams. So ... it's just an espec that people can choose for flavour. That's not exceptional though. There are lots of especs that don't have team roles. 

Let's be clear ... an espec having a role and an espec being good at something are not the same thing. For example, Warriors have a quickness team role ... and they are terrible at it. ON the other hand, Soulbeast is pretty great but doesn't have a team role.

There simply isn't an argument for improving Vindicator based on not having a role, because Anet never gave it one to begin with. It's not a problem that specs exist simply to give people options to play what they want. Maybe in the future, roles are expanded for all especs. Until then, some especs just exist because Anet gives people choice to play them. That's not an invalid approach either; especs are a significant selling point for expansions. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[X Anthony A.8409]

@Obtena.7952 was reading your replies and clearly you lack understanding of what a revenant is, because a espec shouldnt do 25k dps small hit box as a selfish dps class thats not a prob with rev needing a role assigned thats a prob with vindicator needs numbers tuning its clearly needing the treatment ranger got and you clearly dont understand that though especially if you look at base rev only ranged weapon hammer for pve thats a legit joke and a half if it got the buffs mech did with rifle now where talking with hammer :) or something to make it viable since its the only ranged option for rev to use with herald or vindicator 

[Mike.7983]

Vind problem list for "PvE"

 

• Alliance stance does nothing for the elite as this was supposed to be a selfish power spec but having half your skills favored to support is a waste.  The dps side of of it boring and to high of energy cost on skills let alone the wet noodle elite spear.

 

• Jump dodge, to slow and really gets you killed not having a second.  Add on the mid jump stun feels just bad and clunky.  Mega dps loss while in the air also.

 

• Greatsword to slow to weak, recycled animations and has serious hitbox related issues on skill 5 making it horrible on anything not considered to be a massive hitbox.

 

• Hammer to slow to clunky, skills miss half the time and overall just a sad excuse for a ranged.

 

• My solution : Bump all damage up across the board least 20%, turn the spear elite into an actual dps skill or some type of hybrid energy drain that combines your second stance, example shiro/alliance would turn elite into a dual odds/quickness toggle, jalis/alliance would pulse a constant protection/hammers.

 

• Right now vindicator is a broken hybrid concept of a mess and in no world is this viable.  Inb4 the white knights come to the rescue, check your facts before you reply git gud, over 1000+ hours here alone with rev fully legendary/ascended, done every build possible this is not a lack of skill issue, this is myself fighting poor class design. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Mike.7983

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Anet never gave Vindicator a role for teams. So ... it's just an espec that people can choose for flavour. That's not exceptional though. There are lots of especs that don't have team roles.

Please list the “lots” of especs that “don’t have team roles” 

[Scoobaniec.9561]

8 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Anet never gave Vindicator a role for teams. So ... it's just an espec that people can choose for flavour. That's not exceptional though. There are lots of especs that don't have team roles. 

Let's be clear ... an espec having a role and an espec being good at something are not the same thing. For example, Warriors have a quickness team role ... and they are terrible at it. ON the other hand, Soulbeast is pretty great but doesn't have a team role.

There simply isn't an argument for improving Vindicator based on not having a role, because Anet never gave it one to begin with. It's not a problem that specs exist simply to give people options to play what they want. Maybe in the future, roles are expanded for all especs. Until then, some especs just exist because Anet gives people choice to play them. That's not an invalid approach either; especs are a significant selling point for expansions. 

Who give a f about biased anet designers? Why do you keep coming in threads to say 'anet this anet that' as if anyone care. Anet no more once everyone kitten off and leave the game after being fed up with your 'anet ways'. Did u forgot about a rule where customer is always right?

Vindicator in it whole design is turbo trash. Buffing numbers to broken levels for sure will work but in the end it will remain trash at it core gameplay. Regardless of you or anet liking this fact or not, this spec need to be reworked starting with a proper legend instead of a "legendary" peasant duo which couldnt even do their job properly and "fed" Shiro

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Who give a f about biased anet designers?

Well ... Anet does. 

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, X Anthony A.8409 said:

@Obtena.7952 was reading your replies and clearly you lack understanding of what a revenant is, because a espec shouldnt do 25k dps small hit box as a selfish dps class thats not a prob with rev needing a role assigned thats a prob with vindicator needs numbers tuning its clearly needing the treatment ranger got and you clearly dont understand that though especially if you look at base rev only ranged weapon hammer for pve thats a legit joke and a half if it got the buffs mech did with rifle now where talking with hammer 🙂 or something to make it viable since its the only ranged option for rev to use with herald or vindicator 

That's up for Anet to decide what an espec does. I mean ... you talk like it's my decision. It's not. If Vindicator needs tuning because people don't play it, Anet will do that. I just don't see them doing it so that Vindicator is THE power DPS for Revenant for the reasons I gave already multiple times.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952