Downstate is being wrongfully blamed.

[solemn.9608]

19 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Not like they have arenas for those or anything...

Sure it wouldnt be a huge deal overall because yes, they can just go to eotm assuming the buff isn't applied there as well, and what is gained may be worth what is lost (at least regarding zergling gameplay). Yet it's worth noting that many of them are spontaneously organized and don't want to switch maps just to have a few skrims and then go back to zerging. Does that mean the idea is bad or won't work? No, but we've driven that community to the ground already so maybe just keep them in mind.

 

This would also make roaming pretty aids as well if I remember the OP accurately but tbh I skimmed it and not rereading due to time. Sounds cool needs refinement

[Ashen.2907]

9 hours ago, Quench.7091 said:

Their stated goals are to address revivals among other things. Their route is to plow through downstate. I beeline towards addressing their issues, yet they're not happy. Seems like their goals aren't what they've stated they are and that the route they are taking is the goal.

No. Their goal is to remove downstate. Revival and rally are issues that take advantage of the perceived problem with the existence of downstate. Reasons for the desired removal, beyond rally/revive, have been presented but are ignored by those choosing to create a single issue narrative because that narrative is easier to argue against. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I'll consider Warclaw getting the ability to finish downs on Pounce back a happy medium between downstaters and no downstaters.

[Quench.7091]

6 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

there was no "positive change". the main issue is that downstate has far too much HP. all sources of damage outside of condi got gutted by a ton, so it plainly takes zergbuilds too long to cleave, while on the cheesy/smallscale side it didn't really impact anything, obviously

From what I remember, WvW rally didn't always have one player rallies. The rally wiki page didn't update for this information until 2018. Sadly, I don't have the exact log of the change. That was the positive change I was referring to.

When it comes to the time it takes to kill a downed player, it feels like it has a really wide range that is hard to strike the perfect balance. Larger groups can melt a downed player if they call them as target that is in the open. The smallest groups have time to make decisions to stomp or not, but it takes longer to cleave. However, the developers must be on the right track with the balance of health. The downstate penalty is rarely ever reached to max in WvW, outside of maybe a rally spree. If downstate were far too powerful, that fail-safe would be triggering like crazy.

How much health do you believe that downstate should have?

Edited July 7, 2022 by Quench.7091

[oscuro.9720]

I have a problem with people rezzing other people. As a warrior who solo roams, i simply cannot stop 95% of players from rezzing the people I down in 1vX. I finish more 1v3s in no down state weeks than I do the entire rest of the year because I’m simply not good enough to finish downs.
 

The other issue is the sometimes absurd amounts of damage downstate can output. For example, about a week ago I was 1v3ing 3 Mesmers. With 2 down and the third <50%, I was pressuring for the final kill with no defensive cooldowns left. Then I eat a 9k Mesmer downstate 3, dodge the other, and end up dying all while the last living person is kiting and running the whole time. Is this an L2P issue? Probably. But it’s extremely frustrating and stupid to have downed people turning the tide of a fight they already had the overwhelming advantage in. Meanwhile, on classes like guardian, warrior, elementalist, thief, and revenant, we can throw some low-damage projectiles at people and that’s about it. 
 

So I am generally in favor of no downstate, even if it is to overcome my lack of capability as a player. Or at least remove the damage skills from downstate. Give each class a CC to protect themselves, and get rid of the rest. This probably comes across as salty, but oh well. I’ve lost so many fights due to enemies in downstate that I feel I have the right to be a touch salty 😂

[Dawdler.8521]

5 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I have a problem with people rezzing other people. As a warrior who solo roams, i simply cannot stop 95% of players from rezzing the people I down in 1vX. I finish more 1v3s in no down state weeks than I do the entire rest of the year because I’m simply not good enough to finish downs.
 

The other issue is the sometimes absurd amounts of damage downstate can output. For example, about a week ago I was 1v3ing 3 Mesmers. With 2 down and the third <50%, I was pressuring for the final kill with no defensive cooldowns left. Then I eat a 9k Mesmer downstate 3, dodge the other, and end up dying all while the last living person is kiting and running the whole time. Is this an L2P issue? Probably. But it’s extremely frustrating and stupid to have downed people turning the tide of a fight they already had the overwhelming advantage in. Meanwhile, on classes like guardian, warrior, elementalist, thief, and revenant, we can throw some low-damage projectiles at people and that’s about it. 
 

So I am generally in favor of no downstate, even if it is to overcome my lack of capability as a player. Or at least remove the damage skills from downstate. Give each class a CC to protect themselves, and get rid of the rest. This probably comes across as salty, but oh well. I’ve lost so many fights due to enemies in downstate that I feel I have the right to be a touch salty 😂

The question to ask here:

Is there any warrior in the entire world that has *ever* won a 1v3 fight?

If yes, well then there you go. If they can so should you. Failure is no excuse, just the path to victory.

If no, then you seem to come awfully close and thus has to be one of the best warriors in the world. So you have that going for you I guess.

[Labjax.2465]

28 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I have a problem with people rezzing other people. As a warrior who solo roams, i simply cannot stop 95% of players from rezzing the people I down in 1vX. I finish more 1v3s in no down state weeks than I do the entire rest of the year because I’m simply not good enough to finish downs.
 

The other issue is the sometimes absurd amounts of damage downstate can output. For example, about a week ago I was 1v3ing 3 Mesmers. With 2 down and the third <50%, I was pressuring for the final kill with no defensive cooldowns left. Then I eat a 9k Mesmer downstate 3, dodge the other, and end up dying all while the last living person is kiting and running the whole time. Is this an L2P issue? Probably. But it’s extremely frustrating and stupid to have downed people turning the tide of a fight they already had the overwhelming advantage in. Meanwhile, on classes like guardian, warrior, elementalist, thief, and revenant, we can throw some low-damage projectiles at people and that’s about it. 
 

So I am generally in favor of no downstate, even if it is to overcome my lack of capability as a player. Or at least remove the damage skills from downstate. Give each class a CC to protect themselves, and get rid of the rest. This probably comes across as salty, but oh well. I’ve lost so many fights due to enemies in downstate that I feel I have the right to be a touch salty 😂

Examples like this just make me scratch my head. Like why should a player be capable of 1v3ing people unless they have god-like skill? Why shouldn't they have a clear advantage over you?

And why would you think you lack capability that you are able to get that close to beating 3 people at once in the first place.

[oscuro.9720]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Examples like this just make me scratch my head. Like why should a player be capable of 1v3ing people unless they have god-like skill? Why shouldn't they have a clear advantage over you?

And why would you think you lack capability that you are able to get that close to beating 3 people at once in the first place.

Anyone im 1v3ing is rather low in skill. Also you can separate them out into a series of 1v1 and 1v2s, which is much more manageable if you use terrain properly. I’m not just running into a group of 3 people and trying to out-muscle them. It’s a lot of kiting, focusing on a target, slowly removing their cool downs, then locking and bursting, then repeating. Remember, the skill level of a lot of people in wvw is quite low. You don’t need to be a god to 1v3.

 

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

The question to ask here:

Is there any warrior in the entire world that has *ever* won a 1v3 fight?

If yes, well then there you go. If they can so should you. Failure is no excuse, just the path to victory.

If no, then you seem to come awfully close and thus has to be one of the best warriors in the world. So you have that going for you I guess.

yes, I know a handful of warriors who can 1v3, which is why I readily stated it’s probably a L2P issue and fully and openly state it’s to overcome my own shortcomings. I’m probably a mediocre warrior based on my experience. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 7/4/2022 at 8:23 PM, Quench.7091 said:

Whenever I see a forum topic on downed state and how it should be removed, I see it conflated with another topic. There aren't many people who take issue with players taking risks to pick players up while they get bombed with AoE attacks. There aren't many complaints that I see against players utilizing revival skills. Reviving a player can be a risky or costly maneuver. It almost always the rally mechanic that people take issue with. Killing an enemy is something that is easy to specialize in and is less risky than standing in the very thing that got a player downed to begin with.

The rally mechanic has been nerfed in WvW before. It brought about positive change. The code is there and it can be adjusted. They could change that 1 rally per enemy death to a 0. We don't need to make several profession abilities useless by removing downed state. We could easily address the rally mechanic directly. Indirect removals are an excessive approach.

To go further into my thought on the subject, we should try no rally WvW events in place of no downed state events and see how that works out. Those events feel kind of bad on professions that utilize downed state revival skills. No rallying opens up opportunities for these usually underutilized abilities to shine. Enhancing the experience of support class abilities and addressing the issue that people take with the rally mechanic seems like a win/win that we should experiment with.

 

 

Could see a no rally event, would also like to see a dead is dead event. If you are dead you can't be brought back, you need to respawn, forces people in deciding do I try and get them back up or will they have to come all the way back from spawn/waypoint. Different people like (and dislike) various things about no downstate weeks, but agree its not just one bit of the mechanic. Did polls on this in the past and though it seemed chaotic it did show its various number of components of the down, rally, revive, dead mechanic that people lump into a general term of no downstate. But again would be up for a test week but would like to see others as well and maybe combos of them.

[Dawdler.8521]

4 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

 

Could see a no rally event, would also like to see a dead is dead event. If you are dead you can't be brought back, you need to respawn, forces people in deciding do I try and get them back up or will they have to come all the way back from spawn/waypoint. Different people like (and dislike) various things about no downstate weeks, but agree its not just one bit of the mechanic. Did polls on this in the past and though it seemed chaotic it did show its various number of components of the down, rally, revive, dead mechanic that people lump into a general term of no downstate. But again would be up for a test week but would like to see others as well and maybe combos of them.

What about a permadeath week? 

You die and you wont be able to join WvW until reset. Simple.

[Karagee.6830]

55 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What about a permadeath week? 

You die and you wont be able to join WvW until reset. Simple.

You can call that no-wvw week. Who has got diamond without dying once in a week? 

[Dralor.3701]

There are less extreme things they could test out.

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What about a permadeath week? 

You die and you wont be able to join WvW until reset. Simple.

 

Really? 

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What about a permadeath week? 

You die and you wont be able to join WvW until reset. Simple.

 

Its easy just to say no. As I say about the younger gen, "It's easy to be outraged, hard to be inspired." So I guess the reply here  is "Nah Brah". 

[Lucy.3728]

On 7/5/2022 at 6:40 PM, Ronin.4501 said:

But since we're basing our comments on assumptions, I'm going to assume that since you're the type of player who immediately queues up for EBG, you're most likely one of the sheep who follows the blobs around carrying you while you contribute nothing more than being another body in the crowd and that the "no-downstate for map queue blobs" has probably angered you because you're always one of the first to die.

I'm for the removal of downstate and hide in wvw. One has to come with the other. Tyvm

 

As rev I don't die so fast but yeah I'm definitely not the roamer type, even when I did that in the past with my ranger, but not completely alone, had one other ranger friend with me. Taking camps alone feels lonely, I need at leat 2 other sheep comrades close beside me to feel mentally stable and not get paranoid because I see moving shadows everywhere.

I like a small team, or flock in your mindset. Blobs are ok too since there's often some action beside it. And what is more relaxing than a blob pls? I drag my half dead woolen body in the middle of it and clear my inventory, like everybody else but 3 ppl who open some wall.

You don't even notice yourself riding the high horse.

 

Currently I'm stuck with FoW as linking partner and apparently for them only EB exists. EB is also a nice map because everything feels closer, esp when your side owns SM. There's often action somewhere. The opposite of it is the red borderland. I hardly put a hoof on it anymore, even when it's our color. That map is the opposite of fun for me.

 

On 7/5/2022 at 6:40 PM, Ronin.4501 said:

And how nice that you assume I'm on an ego trip.

Come on, your text was so disbelieving, I didn't need to assume anything.

[Ronin.4501]

On 7/10/2022 at 4:39 AM, Lucy.3728 said:

I'm for the removal of downstate and hide in wvw. One has to come with the other. Tyvm

I'm going to assume you mean stealth here?  I'd be all for the removal of that as well, or at least a BIG change in the mechanics of it, but I think you'd see at least 25% of the WvW community pitch a fit and quit the game-mode, and unfortunately we can't really afford to shrink our community even more.

On 7/10/2022 at 4:39 AM, Lucy.3728 said:

As rev I don't die so fast but yeah I'm definitely not the roamer type, even when I did that in the past with my ranger, but not completely alone, had one other ranger friend with me. Taking camps alone feels lonely, I need at leat 2 other sheep comrades close beside me to feel mentally stable and not get paranoid because I see moving shadows everywhere.

I like a small team, or flock in your mindset. Blobs are ok too since there's often some action beside it. And what is more relaxing than a blob pls? I drag my half dead woolen body in the middle of it and clear my inventory, like everybody else but 3 ppl who open some wall.

You don't even notice yourself riding the high horse.

I play both as a roamer and in a squad (my guild usually only has 20-25 so not big enough to be considered a blob), but I probably prefer roaming because it means I only have to rely on myself.  If I die, it's on me.  It's not even about whether or not my comrades are good; nowadays half the players on my server are only out there to farm pips, so they run from any and all fights, even if they outnumber the enemy 3:1 or 4:1.  I've learned not to rely on players like that as "comrades". But I also don't play WvW to relax.  Yes, action is nice, but I enjoy strategy, tactics, and skill as well.  Far too often the blob versus blob fights result in two big sides just staring down one another while they press 111111 and let their boons take care of the rest. I find that incredibly boring.  But I disagree that I'm "riding the high horse".  We obviously have very different ideas about what is enjoyable in WvW, and you automatically assumed that I was posting to stroke my ego, which I didn't personally care for, hence my initial response.

On 7/10/2022 at 4:39 AM, Lucy.3728 said:

Currently I'm stuck with FoW as linking partner and apparently for them only EB exists. EB is also a nice map because everything feels closer, esp when your side owns SM. There's often action somewhere. The opposite of it is the red borderland. I hardly put a hoof on it anymore, even when it's our color. That map is the opposite of fun for me.

I'm on a NA server so I don't really know the situation on the EU servers, but I can assure you that unfortunately that's fairly standard on the NA servers; the majority of players flock to EBG because they don't know how to play in a smaller group or squad and want other players to do the "heavy-lifting" while they just tag along and get credit.  I would prefer that more players took at least some initiative to learn how to better play their classes (I give you credit for at least trying a different class) so that when no one is tagged (which is becoming the norm these days) they can still function somewhat in WvW.  Personally I think it sucks when you have a squad of 50, but maybe only 20-25 of those players really know what they're doing and the rest are barely even paying attention. I can understand your aversion to the red borderland (personally it's my favorite map), but next time you have 30 minutes have a friend who knows the map well show you around.  I think once you learned some of the nuances of the map (which will keep you alive a LOT longer) you might just enjoy it.

 

On 7/10/2022 at 4:39 AM, Lucy.3728 said:

Come on, your text was so disbelieving, I didn't need to assume anything.

I think you misunderstood me when I said I can take camps and towers while I have 10-15 enemy players chasing me.  I did not mean to imply that I'm fighting a tower lord with enemy players attacking me directly.  I meant keeping 10-15 enemy players on the map running around trying to stop me.  Most players play in a familiar pattern.  They take the camp closest to their spawn (let's assume it's SE camp), so their next likely target is going to be NE camp, then N camp.  The enemy players will likely assume this and wait at the next camp in that rotation.  So instead, I'll take SE camp, then cross the map and take NW camp, or maybe N camp, or even tag a keep/tower to put swords on it and then move on, thus they're running around trying to defend objectives I'm bypassing.  But I assure you I can absolutely solo any camp or tower in WvW if there aren't enemy players directly attacking me, and there are quite a few other players who can do the same.  But if I can force multiple enemy players to try and defend a map when I'm maybe one of 2-3 players for my server on the map (hence being outnumbered), then I consider it a win even if I get killed a few times in the process.

[Arolandis.8360]

There is way too much running in this game mode for downstate to be removed.

It needs to stay here.

[Jitters.9401]

Yeah. I really do not like the downed state. It is made to "f" over solo roamers who regularly fight 1 vs more than one. 

 

I got in a fight with a mithril ranger/gold warrior team at a camp owned by the 3rd borderland. They got their same time I did and we fought in the camp. 

 

Ranger was a soulbeast with that teleport pet so I went aggressive on him.

 

Downed him but he rallied from a camp npc.

Downed him again. He got up from another camp npc.

I Downed the warrior. He got up from a camp npc.

Downed the ranger again by a camp npc rally

Then I finally went down and no npc rally for me. 

 

That fight should have easily been mine but because of the downed state + rally I ended up losing.

 

To make things fair downed state should be gone. 

I also have no high burst damage. Only conditions.

[Jitters.9401]

Sorry.. didnt realize I posted the same thing twice and as I see no delete I just edited to this apology.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Jitters.9401

[anduriell.6280]

On 7/5/2022 at 2:23 AM, Quench.7091 said:

The rally mechanic has been nerfed in WvW before. It brought about positive change. The code is there and it can be adjusted. They could change that 1 rally per enemy death to a 0. We don't need to make several profession abilities useless by removing downed state. We could easily address the rally mechanic directly. Indirect removals are an excessive approach.

Rally mechanic is fine now it does not need further touching. What is carring the zergs by numbers is the hability to be able to ress allies for free with 0 investment and just by pressing F. And because of the damage nerf on february no class can take down an enemy before they end up reviving the target. 

Right now there a whole category of skills and traits which has no real use in WvW which are the reviving ones. What about transfusion? Come on i don't need to explain it right? 

What it needs to be done is to disable that free reviving in WvW and PvP. Downed players should only be rallied by an enemy defeat  or by other Allies investing in reviving skills. Anet has done it for the defeated players, they can do the same for downed as well. 

WvW is not PvE, it should require a bit more of a conscious choice from the player. 

 

 

[Dawdler.8521]

44 minutes ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Yeah. I really do not like the downed state. It is made to "f" over solo roamers who regularly fight 1 vs more than one. 

 

I got in a fight with a mithril ranger/gold warrior team at a camp owned by the 3rd borderland. They got their same time I did and we fought in the camp. 

 

Ranger was a soulbeast with that teleport pet so I went aggressive on him.

 

Downed him but he rallied from a camp npc.

Downed him again. He got up from another camp npc.

I Downed the warrior. He got up from a camp npc.

Downed the ranger again by a camp npc rally

Then I finally went down and no npc rally for me. 

 

That fight should have easily been mine but because of the downed state + rally I ended up losing.

 

To make things fair downed state should be gone. 

I also have no high burst damage. Only conditions.

To make things fair... hmmmmm...

Except from your description of the fight it sounds like you would have EASILY killed them both outside a camp. 

Are you saying you want to make it fair by making it easily winnable for you in a situation where you made the mistake of engaging them in an enemy camp and letting them rally off the guards?

Hmmmmm... fair...

[Jitters.9401]

19 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

To make things fair... hmmmmm...

Except from your description of the fight it sounds like you would have EASILY killed them both outside a camp. 

Are you saying you want to make it fair by making it easily winnable for you in a situation where you made the mistake of engaging them in an enemy camp and letting them rally off the guards?

Hmmmmm... fair...

I shouldn't have to wait patiently outside a camp just to fight someone because of a ridiculous game mechanic just to fight.

 

You know what happens when you wait outside a camp? The enemy takes the camp then teleports away. You would know that if you did any real roaming.

 

Means no fight at all and the enemy now has a new resource. 

 

And for the record. I didn't know it was going to be that easy when I went for the attack. For all I knew I could have been given a spanking the moment I engaged them.

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Jitters.9401

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

I shouldn't have to wait patiently outside a camp just to fight someone because of a ridiculous game mechanic just to fight.

 

You know what happens when you wait outside a camp? The enemy takes the camp then teleports away. You would know that if you did any real roaming.

 

Means no fight at all and the enemy now has a new resource. 

 

And for the record. I didn't know it was going to be that easy when I went for the attack. For all I knew I could have been given a spanking the moment I engaged them.

 

Or you could have waited a few seconds so all guards where killed and thus not rally the enemy. If you did any real roaming, you'd know that combat sometimes require you to take the risk of a fight on a cap in progress - even sometimes forcing them out of the ring/invouln/stealth and cap it at the last tick. 

Putting thought into combat and using tactics is an amazing thing. 

You are the typical example why downstate is a good thing for the overall combat of GW2, rather than running blind into battle like a flailing berserker.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Jitters.9401]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Or you could have waited a few seconds so all guards where killed and thus not rally the enemy. If you did any real roaming, you'd know that combat sometimes require you to take the risk of a fight on a cap in progress - even sometimes forcing them out of the ring/invouln/stealth and cap it at the last tick. 

Putting thought into combat and using tactics is an amazing thing. 

You are the typical example why downstate is a good thing for the overall combat of GW2, rather than running blind into battle like a flailing berserker.

You are funny. Made me chuckle.

 

My style of play is fun.

I don't sit and wait till I have a massive advantage on someone else. That may be your "MO" but definitely not mine. I like to run on in amd enjoy myself.

 

I've gone into  camps with full RI on the supervisor many times and all guards alive just to attack someone and see if I can get the kill. Most times I win. Once in a blue moon I have to escape. 

 

Running in blind?  LOL. More like Running amok for the fun of the challenge.

 

You play your way of safety behind walls and looking for cheap opportunities while I will keep playing my way of testing the odds.

 

P.S.  you are funny.

 

[Dawdler.8521]

55 minutes ago, Jitters.9401 said:

You are funny. Made me chuckle.

 

My style of play is fun.

I don't sit and wait till I have a massive advantage on someone else. That may be your "MO" but definitely not mine. I like to run on in amd enjoy myself.

 

I've gone into  camps with full RI on the supervisor many times and all guards alive just to attack someone and see if I can get the kill. Most times I win. Once in a blue moon I have to escape. 

 

Running in blind?  LOL. More like Running amok for the fun of the challenge.

 

You play your way of safety behind walls and looking for cheap opportunities while I will keep playing my way of testing the odds.

 

P.S.  you are funny.

 

Yet you still blaim downed state for the failure of you "challenging" yourself  by "testing the odds", with the obvious implication that without downstate odds are high the fight would have been no challenge. Hmm. Not so much funny as it is strange.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Dawdler.8521