How would you feel...?

[Kalavier.1097]

16 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

He is literally a child at the start of the LWS1 campaign and is barely a young adult by LWS4. His current age after all these years (post-EoD) is only about 26 years old.

 

Most people don't mature in real life until around 30-35 years old.

Shhh! don't shatter that aspect of hating the character by actually pointing out the fact Season 1 of living story is mentioned to be Brahams first actual adventure and time majorly leaving his homestead, getting involved with the commander and suddenly being pulled into the wider world in a drastic manner!

It's almost like the person complaining that Taimi doesn't have enough backstory when she literally signs up as a teen and IIRC is like 18 in season 3?

The cut dialogue from season 1 has braham's crush literally reject him because he hasn't, and doesn't travel, where another Norn who is a merchant actually does. I'm fine with the dialogue being removed but it does give a basis for his behavior.

 

[Justine.6351]

30 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

He is literally a child at the start of the LWS1 campaign and is barely a young adult by LWS4. His current age after all these years (post-EoD) is only about 26 years old.

 

Most people don't mature in real life until around 30-35 years old.

So now you understand.

[Kalavier.1097]

13 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

So now you understand.

Braham changes over time.

Braham in season 1 is not the Braham of IBS.

[Justine.6351]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Braham changes over time.

Braham in season 1 is not the Braham of IBS.

no, he is worse.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Justine.6351 said:

no, he is worse.

According to you maybe, but that is not a universal opinion.

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, Justine.6351 said:

no, he is worse.

Agreed.

[Labjax.2465]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

According to you maybe, but that is not a universal opinion.

True. I guess I get now how people who like Trahearne felt. Cause I really don't get the people who hate Braham. I mean, I wouldn't say I love Braham's character or anything the way some people did/do with Trahearne. But he's an interesting enough character and adds his own unique character flavor to the story, in my view.

[Tukaram.8256]

No need to die, just be somewhere else. He was not in EoD and that was my favorite story of the franchise... might be a connection ha ha 😎

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

I personally don't hate braham, he was ok character from my experience of the story, the only-main issue I had with him is how writers forgot at some point that they already did character development on him, and effectively backtracked him out of it....

 

PS. I actually liked Trahearne, and I actually liked Kormir. Feel free to do whatever you want with that knowledge.

[Magix Keleton.9083]

12 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I mean, I think the first part is an example of how Braham is purely thinking of his own small homestead group, where Knut is not only thinking of Hoelbrek as a whole, but the stream of people from other steads and wanderers because of the Molten Alliance. Knut knows he can defend Hoelbrek, but if he marches out with a force to Cragstead, what happens if Hoelbrek is attacked? Or they end up losing too many there and can't defend the "city".

Yes yes! We can surmise that Knut's a wise old bear who understands the bigger picture and recognises his responsibility to the Norn community writ large (in fact, his wiki entry makes for some interesting reading in this regard -> Knut Whitebear). From his viewpoint, he's absolutely got a decent rationale for keeping all hands on deck in the face of an emergency (ie, the Molten Alliance). But I kinda get the sense that this is the place where people's distaste for Braham started, because Braham doesn't "get it", and... I say, that's okay.

Braham didn't grow up in Hoelbrak, or at least I can't be sure he's spent any significant amount of time there, so he grew up away from a culture that had adapted to become softly pluralistic (pluralistic, but not strictly hierarchical, community leaders are recognised, not institutionalised) by necessity. So Braham's frustration is palpable. He may think, "if a Norn from Hoelbrak heeds the call to come and help defend Cragstead, they should be allowed to!" From his experience of traditional Norn culture and growing up in the boonies, the Norn are strong enough to go wherever, whenever they want!

From "Olaf and Ogden"

Quote

Olaf Olafson: "That was a battle worth fighting! These Destroyers are worthwhile foes."

<Party leader>: "He seems happy."

Jora: "A Norn only does what a Norn chooses to do. Pity a Dwarf does not quite understand that."

Ogden Stonehealer: "So, my friend, will you gather your forces together to fight the Destroyers?"

Olaf Olafson: "I will gladly tell others what wonderful prey they are."

Ogden Stonehealer: "But will you gather an army?"

Olaf Olafson: "Norn have no need of armies. We are Norn."

Knut says no, we need everyone here. He's a direct descendent of Asgeir, whose journal from IBS gives this decision so much more context in retrospect, and it's for this reason that Hoelbrak exists. Knut's got higher priorities to maintain, but they're ones that Braham just can't internalise, so... He chucks a wobbly and acts like a frustrated teenager, and if I'd given more stock to what I recall from GWEN, I'd probably agree with him. But for all intents and purposes, that's what Braham is. A big Norn kid who's never left home before, and whose contentious introduction shows us that his expectations don't match his experience. Feels very familiar, personally.

A lot of times in my adventures with Braham, I've had myself thinking, "come on Braham, get on board already", but I don't think I've ever been turned off by his character. Having played through Flame and Frost now though, I definitely feel a little more forgiving, if not affectionate.
 

 

17 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I wouldn't even describe the Commander as being "More Norn then the Norn" but instead being a free agent who can openly travel around, and isn't part of any defensive force. Hence why Eir and (IIRC?) Knut kinda ask the commander to go with Braham, because the Commander can without weakening Hoelbrek.

I promise I was only being hyperbolic here 😅But it does touch on the spirit of my comment 😛 As an independent actor, the Commander's the perfect person to ask, kind of like if the A-Team was one person.

 

17 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

As for the latter part, it's actually mentioned ingame! there is a Norn https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kolijn_Johansson *found him finally* who talks about how Hoelbrek's increased traffic (and I personally assume population boon) forced them to start having more organization and structure despite it being unusual for the Norn. So while they refuse to call it a city, and Knut has no direct authority outside of Hoelbrek, the place itself is more structured then most Norn settlements. 🙂

I love this. And from the page history, this NPC's been in the game since 2013. And they have an associated trinket which is a heart-shaped locket containing their photograph. Lol.

I might've been disappointed once with how the Norn have changed culturally between games, but through this conversation and given context from IBS, I kinda get it now. So inadvertently, thanks!

[Kalavier.1097]

9 hours ago, Magix Keleton.9083 said:

Yes yes! We can surmise that Knut's a wise old bear who understands the bigger picture and recognises his responsibility to the Norn community writ large (in fact, his wiki entry makes for some interesting reading in this regard -> Knut Whitebear). From his viewpoint, he's absolutely got a decent rationale for keeping all hands on deck in the face of an emergency (ie, the Molten Alliance). But I kinda get the sense that this is the place where people's distaste for Braham started, because Braham doesn't "get it", and... I say, that's okay.

Braham didn't grow up in Hoelbrak, or at least I can't be sure he's spent any significant amount of time there, so he grew up away from a culture that had adapted to become softly pluralistic (pluralistic, but not strictly hierarchical, community leaders are recognised, not institutionalised) by necessity. So Braham's frustration is palpable. He may think, "if a Norn from Hoelbrak heeds the call to come and help defend Cragstead, they should be allowed to!" From his experience of traditional Norn culture and growing up in the boonies, the Norn are strong enough to go wherever, whenever they want!

From "Olaf and Ogden"

Knut says no, we need everyone here. He's a direct descendent of Asgeir, whose journal from IBS gives this decision so much more context in retrospect, and it's for this reason that Hoelbrak exists. Knut's got higher priorities to maintain, but they're ones that Braham just can't internalise, so... He chucks a wobbly and acts like a frustrated teenager, and if I'd given more stock to what I recall from GWEN, I'd probably agree with him. But for all intents and purposes, that's what Braham is. A big Norn kid who's never left home before, and whose contentious introduction shows us that his expectations don't match his experience. Feels very familiar, personally.

 

Another thing about this whole area is that Knut is actively accepting and helping out anybody who comes to him for shelter during this. Craigstead notable refused to evacuate or relocate, standing their ground.

Knut feels for them and wants to help, but he's actively got his own people to care for, as well as anybody who comes to him wanting food, shelter, and medical aide. If your house is in the path of an avalanche and you choose to remain there, he can't help you. Like the old Klingon saying about the man who stood in the path of the storm simply because he could, and he died.

And even with Knut's authority, he can only do so much. Like in S2 where he says "I'll tell people about the Mordrem, but whether they go hunt with you is up to them"

9 hours ago, Magix Keleton.9083 said:

I love this. And from the page history, this NPC's been in the game since 2013. And they have an associated trinket which is a heart-shaped locket containing their photograph. Lol.

I might've been disappointed once with how the Norn have changed culturally between games, but through this conversation and given context from IBS, I kinda get it now. So inadvertently, thanks!

I've always said that people who think the Norn have changed so drastically just don't seem to factor in that where once we only saw a few hunters and strong warriors of the Norn (and had to work to gain their respect) we now see everybody from the storytellers to the old timers to the farmers and craftsmen.

[Labjax.2465]

17 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

the only-main issue I had with him is how writers forgot at some point that they already did character development on him, and effectively backtracked him out of it....

I'm curious now when did this happen? I've played some of the story out of order and my memory of the details is fuzzy, so I'm not sure when this would be.

[Scavarius.6059]

at this point i dont care who dies. anyone from discount destinys edge? eh. the last imperator? just another bucketlist check. the krytan monarch? they probably pull some long lost relative. aurene? she just walks away from it.

the only death that had long lasting impact was snaff. and he died befor our time.

 

On 7/8/2022 at 2:49 PM, Lottie.5370 said:

I'd love to see WAY less Braham in the story, I'm not a huge fan of his character. Can't he just retire off to the wilderness or something? 

last time braham was off into the wilderness didnt end well. as in the commander chased him down just to berate him. so theres that.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

10 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I'm curious now when did this happen? I've played some of the story out of order and my memory of the details is fuzzy, so I'm not sure when this would be.

My memories of details are also not top notch since it has been a while, but it was either between LWS3/POF and LWS4 or between LWS4 and IBS.

Basially vibes were that Braham have finally managed to get over events of HoT, and reconcile with commander at the end of one season, and by the start of the next he is back again at "muh moma died I angry at commandur" mode just as if half of previous season didn't happen.

[Goettel.4389]

The sooner the better.

[Mara.6782]

I don't care if braham live or die. Braham should have died after primordus and jormag fight. I hope his story is now ended. All old characters needs to be put aside and introduce new characters.

[Serynna.3786]

At the end of EoD, it did seem to me that most, if not all, of the old characters were retiring in one way or another (with the exception of Majory). New characters are definitely going to be needed.

[Teratus.2859]

Never been that big on Braham nor do I hate him.. but I don't want him to be killed off.

 

I was hoping he'd suffer some major physical consequences from being corrupted by an Elder Dragon though.. perhaps some nasty scarring or the loss of one or both of his arms or something.

It does feel like he got off easy with that one and just went back to normal with a guilt complex about his actions.

I have always liked the idea of Braham being taken out of action because of a major injury like loosing an arm and having Taimi leave also to "take care of him" possibly out of guilt or something, perhaps she's the reason he lost it or something.

I've had this mental image of Braham with an asuran golem arm in my mind for many years, as far back as LWS3 I think.. and I think it looks pretty awesome, if I could draw I'd put it to paper and post it but alas my artistic capabilities never developed past poorly drawn stick figures so no go there XD

[Kalavier.1097]

7 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

My memories of details are also not top notch since it has been a while, but it was either between LWS3/POF and LWS4 or between LWS4 and IBS.

Basially vibes were that Braham have finally managed to get over events of HoT, and reconcile with commander at the end of one season, and by the start of the next he is back again at "muh moma died I angry at commandur" mode just as if half of previous season didn't happen.

I don't really recall that happening at all?

Braham was angry at the commander in season 3, and in s4 started to reconcile. After that point the two are friends again with no change?

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

11 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I don't really recall that happening at all?

Braham was angry at the commander in season 3, and in s4 started to reconcile. After that point the two are friends again with no change?

as I mentioned I don't recall exact point where it happened, but I am very sure that there was a point where I had a feeling that he has moved on and we good with him now, only for him to shift back to angry avenging teenager mode at the start of next season.

[Labjax.2465]

34 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

as I mentioned I don't recall exact point where it happened, but I am very sure that there was a point where I had a feeling that he has moved on and we good with him now, only for him to shift back to angry avenging teenager mode at the start of next season.

I may not remember it, but I can certainly believe it happened. Writers in general regularly seem to forget character development or throw it out the window in episodic writing. I just watched a TV series where the latest season felt like half the characters went backward and the others meandered around in whatever direction was necessary to advance the plot.

[Fueki.4753]

47 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

as I mentioned I don't recall exact point where it happened, but I am very sure that there was a point where I had a feeling that he has moved on and we good with him now, only for him to shift back to angry avenging teenager mode at the start of next season.

10 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I may not remember it, but I can certainly believe it happened. Writers in general regularly seem to forget character development or throw it out the window in episodic writing. I just watched a TV series where the latest season felt like half the characters went backward and the others meandered around in whatever direction was necessary to advance the plot.

He had a bout of anger and frustration, when he dealt with his former comrades who became Sons of Svanir, but this anger wasn't directed at the commander.

And he was quite angry as the champion of the plot device Elder Dragon, but that possibly was due to him temporarily becoming a Fire entity.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

5 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

He had a bout of anger and frustration, when he dealt with his former comrades who became Sons of Svanir, but this anger wasn't directed at the commander.

And he was quite angry as the champion of the plot device Elder Dragon, but that possibly was due to him temporarily becoming a Fire entity.

none of these two happened "at the start of the next season" 😛

[Fueki.4753]

24 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

none of these two happened "at the start of the next season" 😛

Episode 1 of Season 5 basically is "the start" of the season after Braham and the commander reconciled (in season 4).

The prologue came before episode 1, but the two Bjora Marches episodes count towards the start of Season 5, too.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

28 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Episode 1 of Season 5 basically is "the start" of the season after Braham and the commander reconciled (in season 4).

The prologue came before episode 1, but the two Bjora Marches episodes count towards the start of Season 5, too.

The existance of prologue, means that bjora marches, does not really count as "start" of the season tho, at least not in my book.