Returning player. What is up with HoT exploring?

[Vayne.8563]

On 7/16/2022 at 2:52 PM, Dante.1508 said:

At least in vertical grind you somewhat feel like you've achieved something.. This is just boring after level 80.

Boring to you. I'm not bored.  In fact, I hate the linear experience of most MMOs. I feel limited by the things that lead me around by the nose. I'd far rather choose my own goals, rather than be lead around where I'm told to go, following an arrow to a star.

[Gibson.4036]

ANet creates an organic world meant to be explored in a non linear way.

Some players complain because they don’t know what they are “suppose to” be doing.

Anet makes renown hearts to give players focus so they’ll find the more organic stuff.

Players complain hearts are dull and rigid.

Anet makes new content without hearts, but mastery gates so people stick around in zones for a little while rather than blow through them chasing story.

Players complain about “brick walls” blocking progress.

———————

Meanwhile the portion of the player base that the original vision was targeted at have been wandering Tyria for ten years enjoying it and still occasionally discovering or rediscovering something delightful.

[HowlKamui.5120]

11 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

ANet creates an organic world meant to be explored in a non linear way.

Some players complain because they don’t know what they are “suppose to” be doing.

Anet makes renown hearts to give players focus so they’ll find the more organic stuff.

Players complain hearts are dull and rigid.

Anet makes new content without hearts, but mastery gates so people stick around in zones for a little while rather than blow through them chasing story.

Players complain about “brick walls” blocking progress.

———————

Meanwhile the portion of the player base that the original vision was targeted at have been wandering Tyria for ten years enjoying it and still occasionally discovering or rediscovering something delightful.

 

Can't please everyone.  Thankfully, the LW maps and the other expansions all have differences and you can choose which content to do because of how the game is designed!

 

 

 

[Dante.1508]

On 7/18/2022 at 10:53 PM, Vayne.8563 said:

Boring to you. I'm not bored.  In fact, I hate the linear experience of most MMOs. I feel limited by the things that lead me around by the nose. I'd far rather choose my own goals, rather than be lead around where I'm told to go, following an arrow to a star.

I think Vayne by now you'd guess we have very different likes.

[mythical.6315]

43 minutes ago, Dante.1508 said:

I think Vayne by now you'd guess we have very different likes.

Except he isn’t forcing his likes as being the correct ones. 

[Dante.1508]

8 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

Except he isn’t forcing his likes as being the correct ones. 

Both our likes are the correct ones..

[Sobx.1758]

On 7/16/2022 at 6:52 AM, Dante.1508 said:

At least in vertical grind you somewhat feel like you've achieved something.. This is just boring after level 80.

hmm... interesting. What about this post though:

On 5/14/2022 at 3:16 AM, Dante.1508 said:

See the thing is doing these grindy things gives me no sense of accomplishment at all, its all virtual meaningless content, i play for fun.. Not to grind my life away on meaningless repetition.

To this day i still feel disgust every time i use my Skyscale that i wasted all those currencies, resources, time and effort on.. I felt no accomplishment and still don't.

So do you feel you've "achieved something after grinding" or do "grindy things give you no sense of accomplishment at all"? Or is this just all about saying anything that leads you to getting easier rewards?

Grindy content for optional -even if desired like skyscale or leggies- rewards is bad, but grindy content in vertical mmos just so you can keep playing new content in the ever-increasing-level zones is... good?

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Westenev.5289]

I think blocking off paths via masteries would be a great idea in theory if there were a path Anet wanted newbies to experience, or to avoid them from experiencing, or employ creative ways to avoid. But in HoT, they were just used as anti-fun frustration tools designed to halt the story, lock hero points/Poi's behind portals in otherwise inaccessable caves, and slaughter players who try to seek out said hero points/PoI's w/o deigning to grind out the masteries first

 

Honestly, in its current state, I think HoT would have been better off without a mastery system. The threat of the jungle came from frogs, rows of mordrem snipers, pocket raptor and nightfall... not from intentional frustration mechanics that wall you from doing map completion.

[Sobx.1758]

On 7/14/2022 at 3:27 PM, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

Exactly, except its not a problem ofc, it is the essence of RPG, and GW2 is the best implementation of it in any AAA MMORPG.  In a nutshell GW2 gives short term goals, medium term goals and long term goals, none of which involve power creep.  Masteries are a mix of all 3 objective types, and  often give a meaningful reward, depending on what the player is interested in. 

 

In HOT maps it's an explorers dream, you see an area you cannot reach, and it grabs your curiosity (as with OP) , so in doing so Anet has given a goal you are interested in and a progression track you can follow with a reward that is meaningful to you.  If you could just instantly get to the area then it would just be another dull bit of map you pass through,

True. Both about having different goals available for different people not including power creep and about HoT maps, which I still see as the best explorable maps this game had.

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

I think Vayne by now you'd guess we have very different likes.

I don't always answer a post just to answer the specific OP. I answer sometimes when a poster say something publicly that new players or other players might interpret as facts even if it's your opinion, when not phrased as such.  It gives indication that there's another opinion out there.

I don't really ever expect you personally to agree with me. But if I disagree with something I might very well take time to point out out because we're having a public conversation. It's not personal.

Edit: Many of us are here because we specifically dislike vertical grind. It's a selling point of the game. If you prefer vertical grind, this is probably not the game for you. The fact that this game is boring to you because vertical grind doesn't exist shows you how wrong the game is for you personally. Because I'll never go back to an MMO with vertical grind at max level.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Vayne.8563

[Dante.1508]

12 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I don't always answer a post just to answer the specific OP. I answer sometimes when a poster say something publicly that new players or other players might interpret as facts even if it's your opinion, when not phrased as such.  It gives indication that there's another opinion out there.

I don't really ever expect you personally to agree with me. But if I disagree with something I might very well take time to point out out because we're having a public conversation. It's not personal.

Edit: Many of us are here because we specifically dislike vertical grind. It's a selling point of the game. If you prefer vertical grind, this is probably not the game for you. The fact that this game is boring to you because vertical grind doesn't exist shows you how wrong the game is for you personally. Because I'll never go back to an MMO with vertical grind at max level.

The issue with horizontal grind is the devs seem to run out of ideas to add to it. or as we are seeing they make everything extremely tedious to get anything better.. or even to advance a character e.g EoD masteries..

[Vayne.8563]

17 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

The issue with horizontal grind is the devs seem to run out of ideas to add to it. or as we are seeing they make everything extremely tedious to get anything better.. or even to advance a character e.g EoD masteries..

I feel like you haven't played a lot of MMOs with vertical progression.  It's usually another dungeon or another raid, that you do over and over again over again, having to fight over drops with guildies or strangers, until you get the drops you need to make your own set. The endless parade of dungeons and raids, never ending, the same thing over and over again.

 

You talk about running out of ideas? Have you ever played WoW?  The truth is, this game lets you choose goals instead of shoving them down your throat. I don't need legendary armor or weapons and to be honest, for the most part, I don't need ascended. And I can still play all the content.

This game has more freedom than comparable games. It's not on rails like most games. Having played WoW, Rift, Lotro, DDO, Age of Conan, TSW, Perfect World and probably a few more, I can tell you straight out that this game is far more creative than most of the others (sometimes admittedly to its own detriment).

 

If you think grinding the next dungeon, and the next raid is better than what's on offer here, than I don't know what to tell you. And judging from many of your complaints, I'm not so sure you were a raider in any of those other games anyway.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Vayne.8563
spelling

[Zok.4956]

On 7/12/2022 at 1:38 AM, Einsof.1457 said:

Players: we want horizontal progression systems 

Anet: gives horizontal progression 

Players: surprised Pikachu

Well. Maybe some players asked for it, but it was originally Anet's promise and Anet's idea to never increase the character and gear max level (like other games do it with expansions and invalidate existing gear with this). Instead of this Anet added a metroidvania-style progression system for map travel/exploration with the mastery-system.

I think it was a good system at the time when HoT released. Sure, it was not flawless. But it seems over the years (especially in EoD) it is used more and more for things it was initially not intended for.

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Zok.4956

[Zok.4956]

On 7/11/2022 at 2:39 PM, Albi.7250 said:

Obviously yes. But it is horrible design. Most masteries feel like an artificial problem was created so the mastery can be the solution.

It's Ok if you don't like it but it is not horrible design. Nearly all games create artificial problems that players have to solve.

And this is a metroidvania-style map progression. The alternative (in a lot of other games) is to increase the gear and character max level you have to grind for to beat the new max level map/NPC/bosses. But then all your old gear becomes useless. Anet promised back in the days never to do that.

 

On 7/11/2022 at 2:39 PM, Albi.7250 said:

Especially frustrating when people on mounts ignore path entirely different over the map anyway.

Yes, I agree. It can be frustrating if mounts use shortcuts now in HoT maps but you can't.

The original idea was that masteries only work in their own maps. So HoT masteries only work in HoT maps (and not in core tyria maps) and PoF masteries only work in PoF maps (and not in Core or HoT maps).

But with the big success of gliding (in HoT) and mounts (in PoF) Anet has deviated from this concept and allowed some masteries outside "their" maps because a lot of players asked for it.

 

[Zok.4956]

On 7/12/2022 at 4:16 AM, Labjax.2465 said:

My recommendation would be if you have PoF and aren't super concerned about doing the story in order, go get Raptor and Springer mount from PoF and that may help you explore HoT in a way that bypasses some of the restrictions.

I agree. Gliding (from HoT) and Raptor and Springer (from PoF) give the most benefit at the start for map travel for a new player that has HoT and PoF.

[Sobx.1758]

10 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

The issue with horizontal grind is the devs seem to run out of ideas to add to it. or as we are seeing they make everything extremely tedious to get anything better.. or even to advance a character e.g EoD masteries..

And in comparison you think grinding out levels and better gear just to see your dmg number go higher (when the hp of the opponents also gets proportionally higher) somehow isn't tedious and is somehow more rewarding? By what logic?

[Ashen.2907]

I did not care for HoT. Just dont like the maps. But the only mastery that I remember being annoying was the poison one? Been a while so I may be misremembering but I seem to recall needing to get it to access one single HP and never again. At the time that jumped ouf at me as a, "really ANet?" moment. Other than that one feeling like a barrier for the sake of being a barrier the rest felt like a natural progression of advancing into an alien world and needing to learn how to survive and navigate. Even the poison one might have felt better if it felt relevant for more of the content.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[Dante.1508]

18 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I feel like you haven't played a lot of MMOs with vertical progression.  It's usually another dungeon or another raid, that you do over and over again over again, having to fight over drops with guildies or strangers, until you get the drops you need to make your own set. The endless parade of dungeons and raids, never ending, the same thing over and over again.

 

You talk about running out of ideas? Have you ever played WoW?  The truth is, this game lets you choose goals instead of shoving them down your throat. I don't need legendary armor or weapons and to be honest, for the most part, I don't need ascended. And I can still play all the content.

This game has more freedom than comparable games. It's not on rails like most games. Having played WoW, Rift, Lotro, DDO, Age of Conan, TSW, Perfect World and probably a few more, I can tell you straight out that this game is far more creative than most of the others (sometimes admittedly to its own detriment).

 

If you think grinding the next dungeon, and the next raid is better than what's on offer here, than I don't know what to tell you. And judging from many of your complaints, I'm not so sure you were a raider in any of those other games anyway.

I have played hundreds of them.. Earlier in my life i played literally hundreds of MMORPGs.. From Anarchy Online, Lotro, TSW and its later version, Rf Online, Runes of magic to Rohan, Rift, Wildstar, Multiple Everquest, Perfect world and more even random ones that no longer exist anymore..

The only big names i never played was WoW and runescape.

I did raid in some of them.. Some were just so expensive to raid in it wasn't possible.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Dante.1508

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 minutes ago, Dante.1508 said:

I have played hundreds of them.. Earlier in my life i played literally hundreds of MMORPGs.. From Anarchy Online, Lotro, TSW and its later version, Rf Online, Runes of magic to Rohan, Rift, Wildstar, Multiple Everquest, Perfect world and more even random ones that no longer exist anymore.. The only big names i never played was WoW and runescape.

"Literally" hundreds?  I'm surprised you had time for anything else!

[Vayne.8563]

35 minutes ago, Dante.1508 said:

I have played hundreds of them.. Earlier in my life i played literally hundreds of MMORPGs.. From Anarchy Online, Lotro, TSW and its later version, Rf Online, Runes of magic to Rohan, Rift, Wildstar, Multiple Everquest, Perfect world and more even random ones that no longer exist anymore..

The only big names i never played was WoW and runescape.

I did raid in some of them.. Some were just so expensive to raid in it wasn't possible.

 

 

And you think that's somehow more creative. Putting you in a linear path that involves you doing instance after instance to get  higher numbers, over and over again?  I think you and I have very different ideas of what constitutes creative.

[Dante.1508]

23 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

And you think that's somehow more creative. Putting you in a linear path that involves you doing instance after instance to get  higher numbers, over and over again?  I think you and I have very different ideas of what constitutes creative.

I do, not creative at all but something to strive for, the things to strive for here are meaningless like Mastery's for a siege turtle or a bank and shops.. i mean seriously how is that fun to chase... Fractal and Skyscale grind was some how better to you than more levels and better gear in a standard mmo?

Edited July 22, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Dante.1508 said:

I do, not creative at all but something to strive for, the things to strive for here are meaningless like Mastery's for a siege turtle or a bank and shops.. i mean seriously how is that fun to chase... Fractal and Skyscale grind was some how better to you than more levels and better gear in a standard mmo?

I strive for all sorts of things, from making legendaries, to getting better at the game. That's something you don't have to do in games where your numbers go up because you're not great, you're simply a coatrack for greatness. You can get more stats, get too powerful and make all that earlier content too easy. Way too easy in some cases. This is not you getting better at the game. It's an illusion they sold you that some people believe in.

If you get a 10% raise and inflation is 10% then your salary may have gone up, but you can buy exactly the same amount of stuff. You're not really advance, you're simply maintaining. That's all gear progression gives you.

At any give time I have 12-15 things I'm working on in this game. Getting gear only to find it worthless six months later is just bad. The fact that so many have fallen for that as something to work for, or actual progress, is why MMO developers have been able to get away with it for you long. I never had anything to "work" for in those games, except my next monthly payment so that they can keep me running endlessly in a hamster wheel. That's why those games give you nothing. I'd rather have a turtle I don't need or use than meaningless power in the guise of advancement.

[Sobx.1758]

12 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

I do, not creative at all but something to strive for, the things to strive for here are meaningless like Mastery's for a siege turtle or a bank and shops.. i mean seriously how is that fun to chase... Fractal and Skyscale grind was some how better to you than more levels and better gear in a standard mmo?

These things influence your gameplay, while adding levels to see the numbers go up on a similarly increased value of enemy hp bar doesn't really do that.

[Dante.1508]

On 7/22/2022 at 2:39 PM, Vayne.8563 said:

I strive for all sorts of things, from making legendaries, to getting better at the game. That's something you don't have to do in games where your numbers go up because you're not great, you're simply a coatrack for greatness. You can get more stats, get too powerful and make all that earlier content too easy. Way too easy in some cases. This is not you getting better at the game. It's an illusion they sold you that some people believe in.

If you get a 10% raise and inflation is 10% then your salary may have gone up, but you can buy exactly the same amount of stuff. You're not really advance, you're simply maintaining. That's all gear progression gives you.

At any give time I have 12-15 things I'm working on in this game. Getting gear only to find it worthless six months later is just bad. The fact that so many have fallen for that as something to work for, or actual progress, is why MMO developers have been able to get away with it for you long. I never had anything to "work" for in those games, except my next monthly payment so that they can keep me running endlessly in a hamster wheel. That's why those games give you nothing. I'd rather have a turtle I don't need or use than meaningless power in the guise of advancement.

I disagree, getting better gear doesn't always automatically mean you are better at the game, even in vertical progression, you still need to know how to play.. Also enemies tend to get tougher.

[Vayne.8563]

2 minutes ago, Dante.1508 said:

I disagree, getting better gear doesn't always automatically mean you are better at the game, even in vertical progression, you still need to know how to play.. Also enemies tend to get tougher.

That's what I said. Enemies get tougher. You get a 10% increase and they get 10% stronger. That puts you on a par with them, it's the  illusion of progress.

It's everything else prior to that that gets weaker and weaker though. We have power creep in this game too but it's nothing compared to most MMOs.