Many an MMO underestimates the value of players being listened to

[Labjax.2465]

Just last year / early this year I watched as the MMO SWTOR made unwanted, drastic, and half-finished changes to its game that were panned by most who tested them (they had them early on a public test server). The studio ignored the negative feedback about the coming changes until it was too late, pushed them out anyway, after having delayed the "expansion" they were tied to once, and then weeks after the numbers showed that their expansion had flopped, started coming out and talking to the players and reverting a thing or two (I stopped paying attention after that, I don't know what state it's in now).

It's a story of the consequences of not listening to players. If I look at the state GW2 is in, in terms of listening to players (and I say "listening to" rather than "feeling heard" to describe changes made as a result of listening, not just talking at people), what I see is some vague indications of listening after the fact (e.g. what happened with balance recently), but not a lot of proactive behavior and certainly no one dedicated to listening to anyone who plays the game.

My impression/info I can gather of what the studio has is: there is a fairly responsive team to critical game-breaking bugs (but no one who works round the clock on longstanding low priority issues), a recent small team who is working on QOL changes only because they have nothing else they are tasked with right now (and seem to be throwing darts at a board when deciding what constitutes QOL), and the occasional vague indication that some people read the forums here and there for feedback with no indication that taking action based on feedback read is anything more than rare whims of those who do.

I've always been impressed by the team's turnaround time for high priority fixes, but the rest of it, from where I'm standing, is a poor level of action dedicated to listening to players.

If there was a team, however small, dedicated to fixing longstanding low priority bugs, a team dedicated to low priority QOL based on feedback (not just personal dev whims), a team dedicated to finding communicated pain points and addressing them... think how much they could accomplish in one year alone. And how much confidence they could create in the studio's capabilities by shoring up areas where the larger team has to keep moving to keep creating new content. Heck, even one person for each of those things could accomplish a ton in a year compared to no one dedicated to it.

I'm not suggesting that a huge amount of resources are needed to improve the game and improve relations in the process. I'm suggesting a small amount of resources could be permanently dedicated to listening to players and do a ton for the game in the long-term. And to reiterate, when I say "listen to players", I mean taking development action based on feedback on a regular basis, not a better PR machine or being forced to quickly make changes when the playerbase pans something you do en-masse. A PR machine might help the game's reputation, but it can't hide pain points when a player is in-game and is having doubts about whether it's worth their time to continue playing. And speedy reactive changes, while appropriate and worth something when the reaction is bad enough, are always going to lose some faith no matter how responsive you are. Being proactive and reliable can have enormous value.

[Ashen.2907]

My main issue, somewhat related to this, are changes that are intended to go against the theme, design, and history of the game. If a game is designed a certain way, has been developed according to that design for years, then suddenly changed in a manner to alter its direction at a fundamental level there is a problem. If a studio is going to make radical changes, probably in an effort to appeal to potential new players, it is a good idea to make sure that the direction change doesnt alienate existing players. Bird in the hand and all that.

So, I dont need ANet to listen to me if they are staying the course that existed when I decided to buy into the game. But turn the game into something that I barely recognize anymore and, yeah, I would like an explanation.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[Cyninja.2954]

Listening to players and taking player feedback is important. That's based around the same principle as listening to customer feedback for any other company. It also runs into the same dead ends, just like other customer feedback.

 

Case in point:

- in video games, when players refer to wanting the developers to "listen", they usually mean they want the developers to "listen" to them. This can and often will come at the expense of other players

- players are usually very good at identifying problems and usually poor at solving them, just like customers (good example Dragons End meta: Players were good at identifying the challenges of the meta, but the only go-to solution demanded was "nerf it" when in fact a ton of better solutions, say for example:"please prepare us better for this content or help us in overcoming it" would have been far healthier for the game. The developers went with the later, making sure boons are easier covered, while also changing some of the rng heavy nature of the encounter. The overall understanding of boons and proper group setups in the game increased)

- most often feedback is not given as feedback but a call to action. Players already give the solution THEY want implemented to solve a problem they have identified and then are disappointed if a different solution is found/implemented

- players have a very subjective and limited view on any of the games issues, this is double and triple true for players stuck to only part of the games content

- adding to the earlier point, each player also has a very individual development with the game. What one found interesting 5 hours in will be very different 5,000 hours in. This individual development also has different players stuck at different goal posts and points in the game

 

Now to the matter of changes and which are done:

- first and more limiting factor is just with most things: resources. You might want that graphic engine or physics engine overhaul and it might be the best thing to grace the game since its launch, but it just isn't feasible from a resource standpoint

- developing and supporting a game is a constant fight with time. The entire industry has yet to find some way to manage time in a way which does not lead to massive crunch situations

- certain changes need to be done, some times due to cost cutting, sometimes due to financial reasons, sometimes due to mis- or proper identification of issues

 

Now to "the game is changing and I don't like it":

- the game has changed multiple times over the course of its live. Often for the better, sometimes for the worse. Players usually notice the personally disagreeable changes more than the beneficial ones.

- GW2 started out as a pvp game first, pve second. The original focus was entirely on replicating the GW1 success of pvp while offering a compelling pve experience. This has changed drastically over the years, with spvp seeing nearly no attention for years now, bar some balance patches here and there

- GW2 relatively early on implemented game modes and a focus around player skill in pve and maintained a flow of challenging content for its players. Fractals and the original agony implementation, reworks of Tequatle  and Tripple Trouble, the Queens Gauntlet boss fights, original Orr maps and even eventually basic story instances and achievements (season 2), all the while offering easier and non repeatable open world content (season 1)

- there was a switch to releasing an expansion, which again was not originally planned given the idea was to provide non repeatable open world story events

- with that expansion came elite specializations (again new idea), mastery points (again new) and repeatable meta events (back then, the main farm was dungeons or running circles in Orr)

- eventually followed by less sporadic instanced content (reworks to fractals, implementation of raids on a semi regular basis) and farm-able open world content maps (the entirety of season 3 and season 4 maps which main hook was pretty much "farm this new map"

- etc. etc.

 

So any time players come and complain about the game changing focus, I don't know what the kitten they are talking about? Which point in time are you talking about and at what stage of playing the game are you exactly? Because those 2 aspects will greatly change the perception to the former question. Should the game revert back to being pvp centric? Are the developers supposed to go back delivering only farm open world content (I bet this is what some player would love, even if it had the game on a decline revenue wise)?

 

Final thoughts:

The studio has been doing a lot of anonymous surveys in the last 1.5 years. They've been running A/B tests live in the game. Have been interacting more with the community and in general, many of the changes have been a net positive for the game. Not to mention the focus is on delivering a more rounded out experience (besides spvp, poor game mode and WvW barely hanging on) in PvE in an attempt to make a successful Steam launch later this year. Diversifying or focusing back on the entirety of the game will leave some players scratching their head and disappointed, all the while the game hopefully is recuperating and growing.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Veprovina.4876]

@Cyninja.2954 You're blowing OP's intent way out of proportion. 

 

In don't think the intent was to change the entire game ground up based on someone's whim but rather, think of the countless minor bugs, glitches, and unpolished content that has been left untouched for years. 

 

If just 1 person or a small team was hired to ask the player base what needs minor fixes, then fixed them, along with potentially implementing minor QoL features that were universally seen as a good idea, think of how the game would improve in a year. 

 

The main studio can handle game changing design choices, but being heard doesn't just mean someone was heard and the game changed entire direction. 

 

For instsnce, I can't remember how many times in reported a big with mounts where the character sinks in the ground and you have to wait up to a minute for it to start going again. And I'm not the only one. 

It's annoying and I don't feel heard at sll, I feel like bug reports get actively ignored! 

 

Now what if a small team was dedicated to fixing such small unpolished glitches? I'd feel like my big report did something, and that forum report too. I'd feel heard and way more better towards the company. And the world of Tyria wouldn't end and no one else would be inconvenienced by my wish. 

 

Now how many else such minor stuff is in the game unfixed since it became bugged? 

 

We don't need to change the game with each player feedback but you can't deny that some stuff really shouldn't be debated and should have been fixed and polished ages ago. 

 

And 2020 needs to stop being an excuse... It's no longer an issue for work related stuff and the studio is growing. If they're so focused on Steam release, I think it's time to do just that and Polish the game. 

[Cyninja.2954]

43 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

@Cyninja.2954 You're blowing OP's intent way out of proportion. 

 

In don't think the intent was to change the entire game ground up based on someone's whim but rather, think of the countless minor bugs, glitches, and unpolished content that has been left untouched for years. 

 

If just 1 person or a small team was hired to ask the player base what needs minor fixes, then fixed them, along with potentially implementing minor QoL features that were universally seen as a good idea, think of how the game would improve in a year. 

That's a team not working on other things like new content. Again, it's always a struggle in resources.

Quote

The main studio can handle game changing design choices, but being heard doesn't just mean someone was heard and the game changed entire direction. 

 

For instsnce, I can't remember how many times in reported a big with mounts where the character sinks in the ground and you have to wait up to a minute for it to start going again. And I'm not the only one. 

It's annoying and I don't feel heard at sll, I feel like bug reports get actively ignored! 

No, it means you have no scope of how MANY bugs the game has and at which place the priority of your specific bug comes in. Some bugs have been in the game since launch, and that's not because the developers are lazy and given resources they most likely will never see fixing.

Quote

Now what if a small team was dedicated to fixing such small unpolished glitches? I'd feel like my big report did something, and that forum report too. I'd feel heard and way more better towards the company. And the world of Tyria wouldn't end and no one else would be inconvenienced by my wish. 

 

Now how many else such minor stuff is in the game unfixed since it became bugged? 

 

We don't need to change the game with each player feedback but you can't deny that some stuff really shouldn't be debated and should have been fixed and polished ages ago.

Oh I fully agree. Would I still agree if this meant say 1-2 living world episodes releases less per year? Me personally maybe, a large fraction of the player base? Who knows.

Quote

And 2020 needs to stop being an excuse... It's no longer an issue for work related stuff and the studio is growing. If they're so focused on Steam release, I think it's time to do just that and Polish the game. 

2020 has NOTHING to do with the systemic issues this industry has. It merely exacerbated them. Crunch was an issue before that, still is and likely will be for the foreseeable future.

They are doing just that. Those season 1 episodes did not develop themselves into the game out of thin air. Neither did the polish on EoD or the work towards alliances or any work on content we might have no idea of. Last we knew it takes around 6 months to finish a living world episode which means those episodes you might want to see next year have people working on them right now.

What I personally liked was when developers opened up about how long it can take to find a bug (not even talking about fixing it). Finding a bug means actually finding it in the code and the faulty interaction, not just the resulting behavior when playing.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Mungrul.9358]

6 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

But turn the game into something that I barely recognize anymore and, yeah, I would like an explanation.

 

Jon Peters, outlining the philosophy of GW2 before release:

“Our professions aren’t dedicated healers, DPS, or tanks because frankly, we built a combat system that just doesn’t allow it.”
 

That's what I was sold.

No single profession was ever intended to provide 100% uptime of any beneficial effect. The burden was made to be shared amongst players. But people who came from more traditional MMOs couldn't understand that, and instead of adapting, just whinged until they got their way.

It took them ten years, but they now have the homogenous boon spam that the modern high-end game has become.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Mungrul.9358
Missing they

[Ashantara.8731]

I believe the problem is that developers make decisions based on numbers they look at rather than on player experience, because who says the players that post certain ideas and opinions can be considered qualified, right?

That's a huge issue, because not everything that might look good on the paper is actually good in practice.

Devs don't seem to have the time to play to the same extent as their playerbase, yet - somehow - we aren't qualified enough to predict what will and what won't work. I admit that I have read suggestions on the forums that were plain ridiculous -- but I have also read tons of good analyses on things that could be improved (and how to improve them).
 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Taclism.2406]

Its moreso players overestimate the value of their input. 
Player suggestions contradict eachother all the time. Some want new races or enemy models, some want harder challenges, some want everything to be "press 1 to win", and thats not even listing those wishing for core design changes.

imo GW2 main problem is its lack of direction / focus. Who's the main target? What system can they effectively polish / refine (realistic projection, not a wishlist for what would happen in the best of worlds)? Maybe once these restraints are defined we'll finally have the cards to give more meaningful feedback that works for both the team vision & playerbase enjoyment.

You know what they say about trying to please everyone

[Hashberry.4510]

I would not waste a moment listening to players on this forum if I were a dev. There is occasionally some great stuff here but its drowned out by the silly complaints and conspiracy theories. 

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

47 minutes ago, Hashberry.4510 said:

I would not waste a moment listening to players on this forum if I were a dev. There is occasionally some great stuff here but its drowned out by the silly complaints and conspiracy theories. 

True .

The Devs most likely will aim towards to flourish the community .

Fractal T3 + normal Strikes without timer+  open world hopefully without a timer ,  (OPEN WORLD IS A AREA TO LEARN THE GAME AND MOVE TO ISTANCE CONTENT AND NOT TEACH THEM TO DO 20K DPS TO PROGRESS IT) ,will benefit by the new system of giving Boons . Those areas are not looking for people that deal 30k or "must have classes" like Bannerslaves to succed. If we see  Weaver in Strikes + Fractal t3+open World  , we will welcome them regardles of their dps.

edit2: plz delete Fractal tier2 .... none wants to stay there and spreads the population

The pvp areas wont get affected , because almost none will go to share auras , but will go for survibility . Allowing te devs to get crazy with balancing around pvp , like lately.

High end people can reroll and stack classes classes as they do to win the World First races  ...they have Legendary gear + weapons right ? So they don't have to waste huge amount of gold like us

 

Edit: If we seperate each people with an auto-lfg + current manual LFG (and achiv for boycotaz (now it failed we should go back in the old ways)) we avoid scenarios like this and this from ever occuring

Edited July 27, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Voyant.1327]

Absolutely right. Swtor player that came here, brought a handful with me after 7.0 their latest expansion. We used to run 3/4 man raid teams and had so much fun before the latest expansion. Our guild was around 500 and 90% of us quit & unsubbed within the month.

We extensively communicated, we participated in the test servers, wrote reasons for changes, issues that could arise... They were all ignored and are now in the game.

GW2 had a very similar moment with their June 28th patch. It was the same "way off from players expectations" and "developers being completely out of touch with the player experience & enjoyment." Changes were made and now the game is less enjoyable then it was a month ago. 

Now, Grouch did a great job trying to be a respectful voice and honest with the community. Night and day different then Bioware straight up lying to people. However, the concern seems lack of understanding, vision, and acceptance of input. The balancing team faced death threats, people called for em to be fired, etc. While he was correct in shunning that sort of extreme volatility.... It creates the same issue the base has with Bioware.

You know something isn't what the fans want but offer no changes. At the very least a new balance team should have been put together. As now the optics are always going to be is someone with a philosophy different then the majority of the base is in charge of class balance. They've not really done anything to quell those fears. 

The areas beyond class balance I think they do excellent (minus the EoD Aesthetics, the classes are gaudy visually & jade tech is just miserable to see on your screen all the time.), I've enjoyed all the new content, I do wish it was better for new players so it was easier to get friends into. I do wish ranked pvp didn't feel like it was completely an afterthought & had better modes for seasons.... Little stuff like that seems where those teams should focus...

Short of it:

GW2 in most areas isn't like Bioware besides when it comes to class balancing, to which hopefully we get changes that work with the community versus against them. 

[Veprovina.4876]

  

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

That's a team not working on other things like new content. Again, it's always a struggle in resources.

That's a really unnecessary argument. Every action taken is weighed by the opportunity cost of each path not taken right? 

Of course it'll cost resources. Everything does. The food and water you need to survive cost resources.

Why is their resources my problem?

Let them hire both someone to polish the game and work on new content.

They sell cat bots on gemstore for 1600 gems, i'm sure they have the resources.

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

No, it means you have no scope of how MANY bugs the game has and at which place the priority of your specific bug comes in. Some bugs have been in the game since launch, and that's not because the developers are lazy and given resources they most likely will never see fixing.

Of course they'll never see fixing if they don't hire someone specifically to do that job. 

There's also a big difference in fixing huge meta bugs like there were on EoD start, and adjusting or adding UI elements for some QoL...

Which again, not my problem how they do it, why are we constantly defending inaction when any other game would be dead and buried beneath all the inadequacies GW2 players take for granted?

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Oh I fully agree. Would I still agree if this meant say 1-2 living world episodes releases less per year? Me personally maybe, a large fraction of the player base? Who knows.

I think that, with the Steam release, a whole new generation of players is fine for content for years to come, and veteran players who spent 10 years constantly playing - having nothing to do is what happens when you spend 10 years in a game.

I still haven't done half the stuff in the game. 

I don't have problems with content, nor should anyone at this point after 5 seasons and 3 expansions.

And the few that do - again - that's what happens when you play the game constantly for 10 years. At one point there will be nothing left to do, but those extreme minority is not the reason why Anet should constantly be spewing content.

Especially if it's half baked like EoD.

I'd rather wait a year or two more and have a polished experience honestly...

You would too it seems. And i bet a lot of people who quit the game over the last balance patch and were disappointed by EoD would too. So who are we trying to please here? Who are those people that need constant content updates every month?

Let's pause and fix what there is first?

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

2020 has NOTHING to do with the systemic issues this industry has. It merely exacerbated them. Crunch was an issue before that, still is and likely will be for the foreseeable future.

They are doing just that. Those season 1 episodes did not develop themselves into the game out of thin air. Neither did the polish on EoD or the work towards alliances or any work on content we might have no idea of. Last we knew it takes around 6 months to finish a living world episode which means those episodes you might want to see next year have people working on them right now.

What I personally liked was when developers opened up about how long it can take to find a bug (not even talking about fixing it). Finding a bug means actually finding it in the code and the faulty interaction, not just the resulting behavior when playing.

While i agree it's nice they're bringing back season 1, there's something to be said about building a skyscraper on top of rickety old foundation...

 

That foundation should have been upgraded, redone, but all it got was a DX11 facelift.

Which i appreciate, the game never worked better for me (minus glitches that appear here and there), and i love the shiny swords and little graphical updates that were possible with this facelift.

But it's just a facelift. There's still "sphagetti code" that lift is built on which will continue to cause problems.

 

Lastly, again, no one is talking about 6 month ls1 projects, but hire just 1 person to slowly take care of that sphagetti code, and minor bugs.

If a bug gets reported, and it takes that 1 person 7 months to figure out and fix it, fine, it's still progress over:

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

most likely will never see fixing.

Isn't it?

 

In the meantime... Tons of QoL suggestions rot in that thread which makes everyone wonder why they bothered to ask in the first place?

 

In the end it boils down to the fact that i have lost all faith in people working at Anet.

The expansion elites "feedback" was the start, then the expansion came and NONE of the feedback was listened too, they just went and did it anyway. Then all the opposite actions in spite of players feedback with Dragon's End, then the recent leaks that people who (still) work there are balancing things on a "i like engi but can't be bothered with kits so here's an autoattack i created for myself so i don't have to press buttons" principle - which in turn makes light on why no feedback was ever considered from the players. Cause the devs "didn't want to hashtagfrownyface"... I mean... Those people still work there btw...

 

So with all that professional team in there, what can we really expect? 

It's all pissing in the wind really...

So us arguing here really doesn't mean anything. 

Things CAN be done, but they won't be and the game will die from the incompetency of the current teams or whatever.

Cause really, half the things we take for granted cause "lol Anet" would get anyone else fired immediately everywhere else cause of the damage they did to the company's good name and revenue.

So why is anyone still defending Anet... Really...

[Khisanth.2948]

Considering the amount of "just give me everything for free without any effort" and "balance suggestion to make my favorite class the most OP ever" I don't think it is being underestimated. Seems more like you are overestimating.

10 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

No single profession was ever intended to provide 100% uptime of any beneficial effect. The burden was made to be shared amongst players. But people who came from more traditional MMOs couldn't understand that, and instead of adapting, just whinged until they got their way.

To be fair the developers were also part of that problem. There are encounters which feels like they were designed by someone used to designing for a holy trinity game. Those have been with us since launch.

People often complain about profession balance but rarely address the problem with enemy design. Understandable since players don't control those but that is just as important in PvE encounters as player skills.

 

[Wintermute.5408]

Just out of curiosity, what did they pull this time? I left SWTOR after disaster of 4.0, but it seemed to recover from that kitten-show.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Wintermute.5408

[kharmin.7683]

46 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

Just out of curiosity, what did they pull this time? I left SWTOR after disaster of 4.0, but it seemed to recover from that shitshow.

You have a lot of catching up to do. Just check their general forum.  It's a mess.

[Labjax.2465]

33 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

Just out of curiosity, what did they pull this time? I left SWTOR after disaster of 4.0, but it seemed to recover from that shitshow.

Let's see what I can remember, it was a real charlie foxtrot:

- revamped their gear system for the nth time, taking a system that was relatively well-liked and making it harder and more convoluted than before to gear up, with little to no new content to do the treadmill in again

- put a bunch of dailies in a rotation that were simultaneously available to do any day before (for context, for those who don't know: the game has a ton of reputations with weekly caps and dailies that contribute to weeklies and so on, so this was cutting out a lot of content you could work on at once and the game does not have an open world environment anything like GW2's... they only just were going to implement shared mob tagging finally and objectives are not like in GW2 where more than one person can interact with them independently on their own timer... so terrible idea to try to push people into the same daily areas)

- said they were gonna introduce wardrobe function for weapons and then delayed it while at the same time no longer having end-game gear be moddable, effectively meaning that the main option for using cash shop weapon skins on end-game items was going to be gone until they finally added weapon wardrobe (for context on this one: the game long had gear options with stats that are based on internal mods you can extract or replace)

- revamped the UI into a literal half-finished, eyesore (like parts of it were clearly not changed over to the new design yet on launch and some people were getting literal migraines from the horrible contrast of it and they let this stand for like... a week or two, IIRC? before finally acknowledging it)

- replaced some iconic class icons with stuff that looked embarrassing and amateurish, and I mean like choppy anti-aliasing in some areas, strange proportions, not just a matter of taste (it was so bad it was a meme in the subreddit for days)

- put group finder flashpoints (their version of dungeons) into a daily rotation, so you could only do certain ones via group finder depending on the day

- released the (very small compared to preview content the game had put out) newest story in a buggy state (last instance in it was incredibly buggy and insta-killing people with some janky mechanic that wasn't supposed to) and then was taking, IIRC, weeks to get it fixed

- gutted the talent and skill trees, by taking abilities that people previously had simultaneous access to before in a class and making them something you had to choose between per build

- made leveling and dungeons and such harder (like mobs hitting harder and tankier) and because of how they messed with the skills, left you with fewer abilities to learn and use while leveling up to a point of it being incredibly boring (this is not me injecting my personal opinion here, this was based on reports of people who tested it)

There might be more, but that's what I can recall right now that was most egregious. And keep in mind for those who are unfamiliar with SWTOR, it doesn't have the hotfix turnaround time that GW2 has at all. So its worst bugs will just linger for weeks at a time, depending.

[patton the great.7126]

LOL The inverse of not listening is what happened to SWG. The NGE was SoE listening to the crybaby crowd. AND BAM A MAJOR STAR WARS TITLE IS DEAD.

[Sobx.1758]

If it's about fixing the bugs and some of the actual QoL changes, then true. If it's about "when I say GIVE ME THE REWARD, you give me the reward or game bad/ded" or "make it easier or game bad/ded" then no.

Overally this thread seems to be worded a bit too broadly to be completely with or against it. Just because someone wants something on the forum doesn't by default make it a good idea to implement. Similarly, based on the example from above ("taking abilities that people previously had simultaneous access to before in a class and making them something you had to choose between per build "), just because something is nerfed doesn't make it automatically a bad decision. Context is needed to correctly judge any of it. If there are basically broken (as in: "op") traits that overshadow anything else, then making people choose between them might be a correct move.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Wintermute.5408]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Let's see what I can remember, it was a real charlie foxtrot:

- revamped their gear system for the nth time, taking a system that was relatively well-liked and making it harder and more convoluted than before to gear up, with little to no new content to do the treadmill in again

- put a bunch of dailies in a rotation that were simultaneously available to do any day before (for context, for those who don't know: the game has a ton of reputations with weekly caps and dailies that contribute to weeklies and so on, so this was cutting out a lot of content you could work on at once and the game does not have an open world environment anything like GW2's... they only just were going to implement shared mob tagging finally and objectives are not like in GW2 where more than one person can interact with them independently on their own timer... so terrible idea to try to push people into the same daily areas)

- said they were gonna introduce wardrobe function for weapons and then delayed it while at the same time no longer having end-game gear be moddable, effectively meaning that the main option for using cash shop weapon skins on end-game items was going to be gone until they finally added weapon wardrobe (for context on this one: the game long had gear options with stats that are based on internal mods you can extract or replace)

- revamped the UI into a literal half-finished, eyesore (like parts of it were clearly not changed over to the new design yet on launch and some people were getting literal migraines from the horrible contrast of it and they let this stand for like... a week or two, IIRC? before finally acknowledging it)

- replaced some iconic class icons with stuff that looked embarrassing and amateurish, and I mean like choppy anti-aliasing in some areas, strange proportions, not just a matter of taste (it was so bad it was a meme in the subreddit for days)

- put group finder flashpoints (their version of dungeons) into a daily rotation, so you could only do certain ones via group finder depending on the day

- released the (very small compared to preview content the game had put out) newest story in a buggy state (last instance in it was incredibly buggy and insta-killing people with some janky mechanic that wasn't supposed to) and then was taking, IIRC, weeks to get it fixed

- gutted the talent and skill trees, by taking abilities that people previously had simultaneous access to before in a class and making them something you had to choose between per build

- made leveling and dungeons and such harder (like mobs hitting harder and tankier) and because of how they messed with the skills, left you with fewer abilities to learn and use while leveling up to a point of it being incredibly boring (this is not me injecting my personal opinion here, this was based on reports of people who tested it)

There might be more, but that's what I can recall right now that was most egregious. And keep in mind for those who are unfamiliar with SWTOR, it doesn't have the hotfix turnaround time that GW2 has at all. So its worst bugs will just linger for weeks at a time, depending.

Well. I guess it was only a question of time before final branch of Bioware is put into the grave. It's like every major publisher or studio is on a quest to replace their human staff with literal apes -_-

[Labjax.2465]

17 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

Well. I guess it was only a question of time before final branch of Bioware is put into the grave. It's like every major publisher or studio is on a quest to replace their human staff with literal apes -_-

It's pretty sad. Like that game always had its problems, but it was starting to be in a pretty decent place for an older game and then they did 7.0. Some of the people on there at the time were comparing it to SWG's NGE and I was seeing ire from some very long-time fans of the game, the kind of people who would normally complain about issues with it but wouldn't be leaving and they were ready to go.

 

7 hours ago, Voyant.1327 said:

Absolutely right. Swtor player that came here, brought a handful with me after 7.0 their latest expansion. We used to run 3/4 man raid teams and had so much fun before the latest expansion. Our guild was around 500 and 90% of us quit & unsubbed within the month.

We extensively communicated, we participated in the test servers, wrote reasons for changes, issues that could arise... They were all ignored and are now in the game.

GW2 had a very similar moment with their June 28th patch. It was the same "way off from players expectations" and "developers being completely out of touch with the player experience & enjoyment." Changes were made and now the game is less enjoyable then it was a month ago. 

Now, Grouch did a great job trying to be a respectful voice and honest with the community. Night and day different then Bioware straight up lying to people. However, the concern seems lack of understanding, vision, and acceptance of input. The balancing team faced death threats, people called for em to be fired, etc. While he was correct in shunning that sort of extreme volatility.... It creates the same issue the base has with Bioware.

You know something isn't what the fans want but offer no changes. At the very least a new balance team should have been put together. As now the optics are always going to be is someone with a philosophy different then the majority of the base is in charge of class balance. They've not really done anything to quell those fears. 

The areas beyond class balance I think they do excellent (minus the EoD Aesthetics, the classes are gaudy visually & jade tech is just miserable to see on your screen all the time.), I've enjoyed all the new content, I do wish it was better for new players so it was easier to get friends into. I do wish ranked pvp didn't feel like it was completely an afterthought & had better modes for seasons.... Little stuff like that seems where those teams should focus...

Short of it:

GW2 in most areas isn't like Bioware besides when it comes to class balancing, to which hopefully we get changes that work with the community versus against them. 

That sucks, I'm sorry you lost your guild like that. Glad you were able to bring some with you tho.

[Labjax.2465]

1 hour ago, patton the great.7126 said:

LOL The inverse of not listening is what happened to SWG. The NGE was SoE listening to the crybaby crowd. AND BAM A MAJOR STAR WARS TITLE IS DEAD.

People hated the NGE tho, so I don't get how NGE is a result of listening. What I remember was that it had to do with them wanting to make it into a WoW clone, to compete with WoW. Don't remember where I got that idea from, but it would make sense with the design it was turned into.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

I have no doubt ANet is listening to players...

 

What I am not sure of is which players they are listening to.

 

Take the Empowered buff in raids.  For years, raiders fought tooth and nail against easy-mode raids.  Others demanded them.  Meanwhile, raiders asked for more raids.  So, is Empowered about listening to those who wanted easy-mode raids?  Or, is it about both catering to those who want easy and those who want more, by growing the population of players who want more raids?

 

Perhaps some clarification is needed in this thread about just which player inputs are being ignored.  I'd expect we might find almost as many opinions on that as there are posters.

[Ashen.2907]

4 minutes ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

I have no doubt ANet is listening to players...

 

What I am not sure of is which players they are listening to.

 

Take the Empowered buff in raids.  For years, raiders fought tooth and nail against easy-mode raids.  Others demanded them.  Meanwhile, raiders asked for more raids.  So, is Empowered about listening to those who wanted easy-mode raids?  Or, is it about both catering to those who want easy and those who want more, by growing the population of players who want more raids?

 

Perhaps some clarification is needed in this thread about just which player inputs are being ignored.  I'd expect we might find almost as many opinions on that as there are posters.

This^

And then, to play devil's advocate, we should note that listening to player complaints does not automatically equate to acting on them in the desired manner, or at all. I dismiss submitted feedback from customers and clients at my work with some degree of frequency because they do not necessarily understand the impact of what they are requesting. "Cut turnaround time in half or by 3/4?" Sure thing, hope you dont mind paying triple what you are now.

[Labjax.2465]

1 minute ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

I have no doubt ANet is listening to players...

 

What I am not sure of is which players they are listening to.

 

Take the Empowered buff in raids.  For years, raiders fought tooth and nail against easy-mode raids.  Others demanded them.  Meanwhile, raiders asked for more raids.  So, is Empowered about listening to those who wanted easy-mode raids?  Or, is it about both catering to those who want easy and those who want more, by growing the population of players who want more raids?

 

Perhaps some clarification is needed in this thread about just which player inputs are being ignored.  I'd expect we might find almost as many opinions on that as there are posters.

I think some people are getting confused here. It's not about which player is being listened to. I see no reason to believe they are listening to players of any group, desires, etc., on any kind of dedicated basis. As a result of occasional whim when something happens in front of the right dev's eyes at the right time, sure, but not with any kind of dedicated focus.

And with the example you cite... with the timing of it, it could just as easily be attributed to them thinking about steam release and the outside perception of their game's end-game PvE, and have nothing to do with player feedback at all. So I'm not sure that really works well as a point of them listening to someone.

[Ashen.2907]

6 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I think some people are getting confused here. It's not about which player is being listened to. I see no reason to believe they are listening to players of any group, desires, etc., on any kind of dedicated basis. As a result of occasional whim when something happens in front of the right dev's eyes at the right time, sure, but not with any kind of dedicated focus.

And with the example you cite... with the timing of it, it could just as easily be attributed to them thinking about steam release and the outside perception of their game's end-game PvE, and have nothing to do with player feedback at all. So I'm not sure that really works well as a point of them listening to someone.

I think that it is unlikely that ANet would recognize the potential negative perception of GW2's Raids upon steam release if they hadn't had years of player feedback on the issue. I think that you are likely correct that the emboldened system is part of the preparations for Steam release, but is also due to player feedback.