August 2 Balance Update Preview

[Xaylin.1860]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Depending on who you ask, Junksworn is not a Warrior type, but more of an Engineer type that just happened to be bolted onto Warrior, because the actual Engineer already got Mechanist.

Bladesworn is Engineer inspired. Of course, it partly feels like Engineer. That's part of e-specs. Certainly, you are entitled to your opinion. But I think it is important to recognize that others might have a different point of view on this matter.

And even though it doesn't seem to matter to you: repeatedly calling it Junksworn feels pretty disrespectful towards the devs and will hardly change anything. You don't like it. I think we got it. 😉

 

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And this is objectively untrue. Warrior been nerfed again and again on purpose. None of it was collateral damage.

Most classes have had phases or builds that have been frequently nerfed. Many of them in bad or wrong ways. Warrior isn't anything special to this regard. And yes, Warrior was collateral damage for at least two design decisions - meaning, those were not directly aimed at a specific class: No damage on CC and 300s CD on passive traits. What's special in this context is that Warrior has two weapon sets that specifically focus on CC gameplay. This is something other classes lack because they have access to way fewer weapons. Meaning, usually weapon sets on other classes are slightly more versatile and come with 1 CC at best with very few exceptions. As a result, the damage nerf for other classes was relatively weaker than for Warrior. When it comes to passive traits, Defense has been a passive dumbster fire for the majority of the games life that required close to no skill to sustain yourself in competitive play - not that you necessarily needed it in PvE. And yet again: This is something other classes didn't have. So the change wasn't as bad for other classes as it was for Warriors.

So yes... Defense needs a rework more than many other traitlines - but mostly because it lacks trait options due to the 300s traits. And yes, Warriors needs many CC skills to be looked at and maybe repurposed. Those are two topics I personally think are relevant for the current state of Warrior that are unique to Warrior. But that's about it. However that still doesn't mean it is as unplayable as some people make it out to be - because there are still many other options than those skills and traits that were nerfed. Everything else is self-proclaiming yourself as a victim of something that doesn't make you a victim. ANet or any other company for that matter has no (economical) reason to systematically bully mains of specific classes. It is not like any other class or spec has problems aside from Warrior. At least that's my opinion.

[Mattmatt.4962]

18 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Bladesworn is Engineer inspired. Of course, it partly feels like Engineer. That's part of e-specs. Certainly, you are entitled to your opinion. But I think it is important to recognize that others might have a different point of view on this matter.

And even though it doesn't seem to matter to you: repeatedly calling it Junksworn feels pretty disrespectful towards the devs and will hardly change anything. You don't like it. I think we got it. 😉

 

Most classes have had phases or builds that have been frequently nerfed. Many of them in bad or wrong ways. Warrior isn't anything special to this regard. And yes, Warrior was collateral damage for at least two design decisions - meaning, those were not directly aimed at a specific class: No damage on CC and 300s CD on passive traits. What's special in this context is that Warrior has two weapon sets that specifically focus on CC gameplay. This is something other classes lack because they have access to way fewer weapons. Meaning, usually weapon sets on other classes are slightly more versatile and come with 1 CC at best with very few exceptions. As a result, the damage nerf for other classes was relatively weaker than for Warrior. When it comes to passive traits, Defense has been a passive dumbster fire for the majority of the games life that required close to no skill to sustain yourself in competitive play - not that you necessarily needed it in PvE. And yet again: This is something other classes didn't have. So the change wasn't as bad for other classes as it was for Warriors.

So yes... Defense needs a rework more than many other traitlines - but mostly because it lacks trait options due to the 300s traits. And yes, Warriors needs many CC skills to be looked at and maybe repurposed. Those are two topics I personally think are relevant for the current state of Warrior that are unique to Warrior. But that's about it. However that still doesn't mean it is as unplayable as some people make it out to be - because there are still many other options than those skills and traits that were nerfed. Everything else is self-proclaiming yourself as a victim of something that doesn't make you a victim. ANet or any other company for that matter has no (economical) reason to systematically bully mains of specific classes. It is not like any other class or spec has problems aside from Warrior. At least that's my opinion.

Very good post, we can probably add to the list, the chase of "unique modifiers". Every class got hit, but warrior's unique banner buff was the wheel chair holding a "disabled" class rolling. They also got hurt more by that general design change ( a good change i'd add btw)

[Xaylin.1860]

2 minutes ago, Mattmatt.4962 said:

Very good post, we can probably add to the list, the chase of "unique modifiers". Every class got hit, but warrior's unique banner buff was the wheel chair holding a "disabled" class rolling. They also got hurt more by that general design change ( a good change i'd add btw)

This is true. But mostly to the extent of the associated self-buffs from Banners - because everyone else lost the stats in group play as well. And even then it is only a performance loss for Banner builds, not for Warrior overall. It is not like Banners were meta in all game modes. People crying for general stat compensations are blowing it way out of proportion.

[Karagee.6830]

4 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

ANet or any other company for that matter has no (economical) reason to systematically bully mains of specific classes.

Don't confuse management with the actual devs coding the changes like solar. He was aware his changes were bad and would have generated enough salt in the playerbase to fill an ocean. He said it himself.

Besides, other than culpability there is negligence and incompetence and there's no doubt grouch, cmc and even solar fall more into these categories than doing a bad job on purpose...

[Karagee.6830]

On 8/4/2022 at 8:49 PM, ThunderX.6591 said:

If you talk about "standard" class, in literally any games out in the wild, Warrior is in the top 3 best dps........ in that spot, here, we have Bladesworn......... how good is isn't important, the important part is that a "warrior" type of class is in the top 3 spot. (the fact that the "normal warrior" is literally at the low end of the dps ranking is considered "collateral damage", totally normal, same as a Tempest healer that is the TOP of all healer spec is literally never used in high end game contents).

What can we do? Nothing until we have peole who ask random nerf to classes who are " literally ok" instead of asking for buffs to the rest of the "not so ok" classes we have in the game.......... expecially after a patch (28/06) that with what changed in the game, literally take flat 4k loss dps to all classes in the game.

Understand that you need to ask BUFFS for the "not so good classes" if you want them to be better, nerfs never improve something (the word literally mean "nerf as reduce it").

 

This is a borderline ignorant post. Benchmarks need to be understood before we can have a meaningful conversation (and for bsw 39k benchmark a lot should be said about the large overkill damage, which is the only reason that benchmark is 39k and not 37k even in the golem set conditions). The relationship between benchmarks and performance in group content also needs to be understood before we can have a meaningful conversation (and bladesworn is also a prime discussion candidate in this respect).

Just looking at benchmarks in a silly way and out of context would have also told you Ele as a class has been fine for years when it had almost 0 representation. And note that this is not a problem of player skill, it is a problem of class design. When you are ready to accept why high golem benchmarks can be misleading, do not translate into similar damage in raid situations more for some builds than others and, most importantly, don't translate in class representation, then and only then we will have that discussion.

Perhaps 99.9% of people playing this game, me included, are idiots and warrior and ele should make up 50% of raid parties instead of Mechanist and Firebrand.

28k with 0 apm (which you seem to have decided to ignore altogether) is not ok. It. Is. BUSTED. It's an aberration that should have never been allowed to be. And it was 32k a little more than a month ago. And yes Mech and FB are broken classes that must be brought to the level of all other specialisations, because unlike EVERY other specialisation they both get way too much stuff having to give up NOTHING. If you dwarfed their damage or healing by 20%-25% they will still be superior due to the utility they provide with no drawback (whereas the rest of the field need to decide and pick specific traits which are typically mutually exclusive).

Edit: I have been a bit too hyperbolic there. Let's say 10%-15%.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Ashen.2907]

14 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

, Junksworn is not a Warrior type, but more of an Engineer type that just happened to be bolted onto Warrior, because the actual Engineer already got Mechanist.

Many, if not most, elite specs are essentially aspects of one class bolted onto another.

Druid is Guardian bolted onto Ranger.

Mechanist is ranger bolted onto engineer.

Heck, evwn Dragonhunter is essentially ranger bolted onto guardian.

 

[Angesombre.4630]

I find that with each update the game loses a lot, except for some classes that are still strong (always the same ones) that I don't really play. It's a shame to try to break an identity on the game to try to make something without flavor, without taste.
 
I think some people will disagree with me, but by removing speed and alac, it would be much easier to balance CDs or attack speed of classes.
It would even be easier to have a variety of classes in the HL content.

If some people think this is not possible, Anet has already removed retaliation and changed resistance and torment ok it is an alteration, but it is still a change.

[Fueki.4753]

9 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Many, if not most, elite specs are essentially aspects of one class bolted onto another.

Druid is Guardian bolted onto Ranger.

Mechanist is ranger bolted onto engineer.

Heck, evwn Dragonhunter is essentially ranger bolted onto guardian.

Yet most Elite specializations somehow fit the theme of the overall profession they are attached to.

Mechanist is using a magical-mechanical Golem/robot, which is in line with Engineer's tinker theme.

Dragonhunter is a zealous Light-magic user hunting down the enemies, which is in line with Guardians theme of using Light magic to defeat the enemies of those they wish to protect.

Druid is a bit iffy, because the star theme of the playable variant is just bad. But the real Druids in the GW2 universe are heavily involved with Nature magic, which is part of Ranger's theme.

But Junksworn? It's literally just an Engineer specialization with a mandatory single kit and a hollow "Samurai" movie tribute that's tied to the mandatory Engineer kit. There's nothing about Warrior in that specialization, you could bolt it onto the actual Engineer and it would hardly feel any different. It'd likely even harmonize better with the Explosives and Firearms trait lines than any of the Warrior trait lines. It even takes away from the Warrior theme, by removing the weapon swap from the once so-called master of weapons and Adrenaline. Even the flow mechanic likely refer to the mechanical flow of fluids and gases (or magic in this case), rather than the flow of battle.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Xaylin.1860]

19 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Besides, other than culpability there is negligence and incompetence and there's no doubt grouch, cmc and even solar fall more into these categories than doing a bad job on purpose...

There certainly is neglicence when it comes to balance overall. And yes, the leaks are bad. Still, ANet has a company has no interest in dissatisfying specific customers. While there obviously is favoritism among devs - which have shifted by the way... it's not like Engineer was meta for all of GW2 - a very vocal minority in various class forums keeps fabricating extensive conspracies of how their main class is mistreated. The fact alone that this happens in almost all class subforums should be hint enough that this probably is not exactly what's happening.

[Xaylin.1860]

2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Yet most Elite specializations somehow fit the theme of the overall profession they are attached to.

Mechanist is Ranger on Engineer.

Dragonhunter is Ranger on Engineer. 

 

Want more?

Mirage is Thief on Mesmer.

Weaver is Thief on Mesmer.

Specter is Necromancer on Thief.

Harbinger is Enginner on Necromancer.

 

Again, you are entitled to your opinion. But regardless whether you like Bladesworn or not - the pure fact it is inspired by Engineer - on a Warrior - hardly makes it an unseen abomination when compared to other e-specs. It just doesn't 😉

 

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

There certainly is neglicence when it comes to balance overall. And yes, the leaks are bad. Still, ANet has a company has no interest in dissatisfying specific customers. While there obviously is favoritism among devs - which have shifted by the way... it's not like Engineer was meta for all of GW2 - a very vocal minority in various class forums keeps fabricating extensive conspracies of how their main class is mistreated. The fact alone that this happens in almost all class subforums should be hint enough that this probably is not exactly what's happening.

To be fair, my current mains are Firebrand and Mechanist (with some Virtuoso on the side) and I certainly don't feel mistreated.

[Xaylin.1860]

16 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

To be fair, my current mains are Firebrand and Mechanist (with some Virtuoso on the side) and I certainly don't feel mistreated.

Haha, I can see how this is the case 😁

[Karagee.6830]

3 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Haha, I can see how this is the case 😁

Oh can you? Because we have people in this thread trying to convince how bad Mechanist dps is and how it has been nerfed constantly while warrior is a top-3 dps spec. Btw Mechanist representation is...growing.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

Buff Power Reaper! Buff Power Reaper! Buff Power Reaper! Buff Power Reaper! Buff Power Reaper! Buff Power Reaper! Buff Power Reaper! Buff Power Reaper! Buff Power Reaper! Buff Power Reaper! Buff Power Reaper! Buff Power Reaper! Buff Power Reaper!

[Voyant.1327]

1 hour ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Oh can you? Because we have people in this thread trying to convince how bad Mechanist dps is and how it has been nerfed constantly while warrior is a top-3 dps spec. Btw Mechanist representation is...growing.

On easy mode it still seems to be 37k-ish which is top end for a lot of specs.... But a skilled user can add dps on top of that even through various set ups (pistol/pistol/kits) to reach same 40k+ untamed sits in which is a little too high. All it is.

Other classes got nerfed for the same reasons. Virtuoso, Weaver for example got brought below the mark. While I think having pure dps specs be at 40-42k is fine, doesn't seem the baseline they want. So it becomes either buff dps specs to a similar standing again or bring untamed and mechanist back down to be on par with the rest is all. 

[Xaylin.1860]

1 hour ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Oh can you? Because we have people in this thread trying to convince how bad Mechanist dps is and how it has been nerfed constantly while warrior is a top-3 dps spec.

Don't count me in on that. And I think, I have made that clear on several occasions. But this doesn't mean I have to agree on sob stories about how bad everything else is. 

[Karagee.6830]

7 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Don't count me in on that. And I think, I have made that clear on several occasions. But this doesn't mean I have to agree on sob stories about how bad everything else is. 

Right, so you seem to be saying you don't care about other Mechanists apologists and their sob stories, as you call them, but you do care about everyone else's. Seems like a nice, fair and non-contradictory place to be in, indeed.

Let's just agree that Mechanist and FB both need to be nerfed in line with every other spec and that AA dps builds need to have a significantly lower output than people pushing buttons and then, when we can compare apples with apples, we will talk about where support builds should be, where pure dps builds should be and how much lower, compared to them, AA builds should be.

But let me just say this: a 20% damage gap between benchmarks for dps builds like untamed or catalyst and AA builds is nowhere near enough. 45% is more like it (so 40k top dps and 22k AA builds). As I said, that gap is much smaller in group play and you certainly don't want a 20% benchmark gap to turn into a 10% or smaller gap in actual gameplay.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Angesombre.4630]

Vindicator has also been nerfed to not DPS it barely waits for the 31k, like herald.... Even if for hearld I can understand

[mirage.8046]

1 minute ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

Vindicator has also been nerfed to not DPS it barely waits for the 31k, like herald.... Even if for hearld I can understand

Frankly, power revenant is not even allowed to just do power DPS; it gets shoehorned into support and it's so darn tiring that's the case. Herald was the black sheep until recently; power renegade was slowly phased out; vindicator did get power traits but then got support traits and skills mixed in. Power has been a lost concept for revenant.

[ThunderX.6591]

On 8/6/2022 at 4:04 PM, Karagee.6830 said:

Oh can you? Because we have people in this thread trying to convince how bad Mechanist dps is and how it has been nerfed constantly while warrior is a top-3 dps spec. Btw Mechanist representation is...growing.

Well, obviously, EOD get more new people to the game, what new people choose as class? They see a nice robot at the window login, search the class with robot, find Engi, get it, get elite for the robot, see is an easy class to play, use it.

What you want? You want Anet to loose money here destroying the class who bring the cash home with the new players? Go and buy NCSoft, after, maybe, (maybe, money is a bitter wall to surpass) you can change the game as you want it.

But simple ask to buff the "not so good classes" is too hard to do for you?

Edited August 7, 2022 by ThunderX.6591

[Emberheart.8426]

4 minutes ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Well, obviously, EOD get more new people to the game, what new people choose as class? They see a nice robot at the window login, search the class with robot, find Engi, get it, get elite for the robot, see is an easy class to play, use it.

What you want? You want Anet to loose money here destroying the class who bring the cash home with the new players? Go and buy NCSoft, after, maybe, (maybe, money is a bitter wall to surpass) you can change the game as you want it.

But simple ask to buff the "not so good classes" is too hard to do for you?

Anet are not that interested in buffing the other classes. Just look at the "balance" team's actions as of late and how much neglect they have shown.

You keep getting mechanist buffs and quality of life fixes, such as the pet auto-cast changes. This is on one of the best and most overrepresented specs in the game.

 

Meanwhile fantasy staples that have proven to be popular in MMOs in general, such as the warrior and the elementalist (mage) are left to rot for years upon years. I wonder what will happen when new Steam players find out that the staff wielding mage is a burning dumpster fire and completely useless. Instead you get to melee for way worse results than real classes, with the most outdated kit in the game.

But yes, pet auto-cast is obviously a bigger priority than fixing staff. Think about it, elementalist is the only class to not get any sort of rework/revamp/touch-up in the June balance update. Every other class got at least an attempt, even if some were messy attempts. And now we keep getting love for the overperformers instead of looking at specs and skills that truly need to be modernized. You look at Anet's priorities in their balance patches and cannot help but be baffled by what they focus on.

 

Frankly your excuses are tone deaf and people have great reasons to complain. They complain a lot about the unloved classes too, but Anet never seem to care.

[Ashen.2907]

On 8/6/2022 at 7:04 AM, Karagee.6830 said:

Btw Mechanist representation is...growing.

Representation is irrelevant.  Relative performance is what matters. Of course performance can feed into representation, but the representation itself is not the issue.

[ThunderX.6591]

If you consider the benchmark only, and the fact noone used AARocket even though was totally possible before the 28/06 patch, and Mecha was 39k-40k dps (middle rank), and that the balance reduced all classes around 4k dps flat, so mecha be around 36k is totally normal, after that, Mecha was nerfed with the hot fix of 01/07 patch, and lost around 2k damage for all Robot different stile interaction (because instead of nerfing AARocket, they nerfed coefficient on the Robot damage skill........) plus, lost around another 2k damage with the last patch of 02/08, but benchmark isn't updated,(last update is 20/07 on snocrow) so, now, Mecha with the 2k dps loss is around 34k dps, on the lower side of the ranking, but people who use it now unless are older players with extra gold and extra armor to equip another class, will continue to use it, even if they do less dps of the media in the site (media dps is considered around 36k).

But people here on the forum, even though the nerf come, continue to use the old bench to ask more nerf (instead of buffs for other classes), when the class is like 34k or less now........... but they don't understand it.

For the Ele, i explained in many other post why Cata Hammer was nerfed......... Was explained too in the topic at the start of the Elementalist changing part in the patch, where they talked about what they found analizing the data from high level encounter contents, and that get the hammer nerf to the hammer of the cata.

[soul.9651]

10 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

If you consider the benchmark only, and the fact noone used AARocket even though was totally possible before the 28/06 patch, and Mecha was 39k-40k dps (middle rank), and that the balance reduced all classes around 4k dps flat, so mecha be around 36k is totally normal, after that, Mecha was nerfed with the hot fix of 01/07 patch, and lost around 2k damage for all Robot different stile interaction (because instead of nerfing AARocket, they nerfed coefficient on the Robot damage skill........) plus, lost around another 2k damage with the last patch of 02/08, but benchmark isn't updated,(last update is 20/07 on snocrow) so, now, Mecha with the 2k dps loss is around 34k dps, on the lower side of the ranking, but people who use it now unless are older players with extra gold and extra armor to equip another class, will continue to use it, even if they do less dps of the media in the site (media dps is considered around 36k).

But people here on the forum, even though the nerf come, continue to use the old bench to ask more nerf (instead of buffs for other classes), when the class is like 34k or less now........... but they don't understand it.

For the Ele, i explained in many other post why Cata Hammer was nerfed......... Was explained too in the topic at the start of the Elementalist changing part in the patch, where they talked about what they found analizing the data from high level encounter contents, and that get the hammer nerf to the hammer of the cata.

You are such a troll it even blows my mind as if you never seen what is happening at raids, fracts, and strikes where all you see most of the time are mechs with firebrands. Anet should nerf this kitten already and let people who play other specs enjoy the game aswell so please dont spread this nonsence. People are mad for a good reason with those 2 specs

Plus look at the difference between condi weaver with its rotation and condi mech and then look at their benchmarks and tell that its balanced... More effort = more rewards(dps) just doesnt exist in this game which makes plenty of veteran players hate this meta even more

Edited August 8, 2022 by soul.9651

[Karagee.6830]

13 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Representation is irrelevant.  Relative performance is what matters. Of course performance can feed into representation, but the representation itself is not the issue.

Representation IS the issue. That's the only way you can assess balance objectively. It's like saying 1 person is able to play warrior to 1850 rating in pvp, so it should be nerfed. Nevermind that there are no other players in the next 100 spots playing warrior.

You see the problem? Balancing around elite players instead of average players will erase entire classes. Because when you have ensured that not even that elite guy can get to 1850, you won't see other players in the top 300...

In other terms, nobody cares if an elite player can do 42k on a static golem with build A and 37k with build B, when the average player does 32k with both in an actual situation.

Let elite players and speedrunners do their thing and allow everyone else to be able to play the game with the profession of their choice.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Karagee.6830