August 23 Balance Update Preview

[Ascency.3580]

21 hours ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Hi all,

The June 28 update highlighted that our approach to balancing professions and combat in Guild Wars 2 has not been fully aligned with the needs and expectations of our community. As we communicated in several posts over the last month and a half, we’re using this an opportunity to take a hard look at our internal processes and revise the Guild Wars 2 balance philosophy. We also added some new leaders into the team to help facilitate that effort. That work is still ongoing, and we look forward to sharing our updated balance philosophy with you as soon as we can.

As we’ve been reading through your feedback on the August 23 preview, it became clear to us that one aspect of the previous balance approach was especially problematic. Specifically, making balance adjustments to PvE builds based on their potential under unrealistic, ideal conditions – conditions that are unlikely to be met unless you’re testing against a golem, or the player is extremely skilled. While these builds can definitely be an issue in a skilled player’s hands, often times the changes have an outsized impact to unrelated builds and average players. With that in mind, we’ll be reverting the changes to mirage in the August 23 update.

This change in approach raises questions about previous changes that were made with a build’s ‘potential’ in mind, rather than the realistic output. We’ll be evaluating those prior changes on a case-by-case basis in future releases. This isn’t to say that we won’t address overperforming builds in the future, but we will focus more on builds that are dominating the meta, rather than builds that could theoretically dominate.

For reference, these are the mirage changes that are being removed from the August 23 update:

Axe:

·         Lingering Thoughts: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

·         Imaginary Axes: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

Staff:

·         Chaos Vortex (Staff Ambush) (PvE only) Might stack count reduced from 8 to 5, Might duration reduced from 15s to 10s. Torment, Bleeding, and Confusion duration reduced from 8s to 7s.

Thanks,

Josh

this is amazing news. maybe we will actually see hard to play classes reward players for putting in the effort again.

[Karagee.6830]

In the immortal words of @Josh Davis.7865. Following this change in philosophy (finally), Mechanist as currently constructed and utterly oppressing the pug meta IS NOT WELCOME IN THIS COMMUNITY.

[Loke.1429]

22 hours ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

... We also added some new leaders into the team to help facilitate that effort. That work is still ongoing, and we look forward to sharing our updated balance philosophy with you as soon as we can.

As we’ve been reading through your feedback on the August 23 preview, it became clear to us that one aspect of the previous balance approach was especially problematic. Specifically, making balance adjustments to PvE builds based on their potential under unrealistic, ideal conditions – conditions that are unlikely to be met unless you’re testing against a golem, or the player is extremely skilled. While these builds can definitely be an issue in a skilled player’s hands, often times the changes have an outsized impact to unrelated builds and average players. ...

THANK YOU!!! Also... wvw balance when?

Edited August 19, 2022 by Loke.1429

[Karagee.6830]

21 minutes ago, Loke.1429 said:

THANK YOU!!! Also... wvw balance when?

Presumably after they see what exactly they have created with this patch, since it is very much up in the air for everyone including the devs. I think it's better if they check what happens in pve first before adjusting coefficients in wvw and spvp, just in case. They made a lot of changes, imagine if the coefficients are not tuned right, stuff like rifle berserker may one-shot (ok, 2-shot in 2 seconds) people in wvw. They already could in the past.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Loke.1429]

19 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Presumably after they see what exactly they have created with this patch, since it is very much up in the air for everyone including the devs. I think it's better if they check what happens in pve first before adjusting coefficients in wvw and spvp, just in case. They made a lot of changes, imagine if the coefficients are not tuned right, stuff like rifle berserker may one-shot (ok, 2-shot) people in wvw. They already could in the past.

Yeah I hope this is what they are doing, but commitment / timeline for it would be very nice. Also I got literally one-shot by mech Jade Mortar yesterday in wvw. I was ele on full bers, and Jade mortar hit me for 14,5K, so currently I don't think they are careful enough with things like that for wvw balance. Its more like pve balance with some minor adjustments, and should be more like pvp balance

Edited August 19, 2022 by Loke.1429

[FreshF.5793]

You forgot many new elite specs in your notes.

 

E.g.:

This is only for PvE

 

Regarding Catalyst I would like to see easier access to auras. Elemental empowerment (stat-increase, 10 stacks max) and hardened auras (dmg-reduction, 5 stacks max) are both very hard to stack up (EE when you dont use Vicious Elements). Besides some weapon skills that grant and transmute auras (1 per weapon Set) there is only 1 Leap finisher (Hammer only) to combo. 

 

Suggestion: 

Make Elemental Epiphome work the same way as Evasive Arcana. Evasive Arcana triggers when the player dodges a skill that is based on the attunements. So there are 4 skills (each attunement) with separate cooldowns. The same I would like to see on elemental Epiphome 🙂

 

Another Suggestion:

Change the base duration of fury on the lightning sphere from 2 to 3 secs. Alternatively  make the 2s fury from energized elements 5-target instead of just applying it to oneself. If ele is not using Air traitline, there are only few options to grant fury to allies.

 

Watersphere:

Please add/change the damage of the watersphere to ticking healing for more support and sustain of the group.

 

Elementalist is still by far the squishiest class. By making hardened auras more available, it would make many Ele-Mains happy because of less downed-state time (at least as a cata).

 

Soothing Water + Invigorating Air:

I suggest to make both these skills count for 5 allies around you. The 100% endurance Regeneration from Invigorating Air is pretty nice. Even though Shocking Aura would fit in it pretty well, too. 

 

Fortified Earth:

When you block give allies aegis (Like maze from guard) and get magnetic aura. When Channel is complete grant pulsing barrier and stability for the next few seconds.

 

Arcana Brilliance:

Make it for 5 allies. There is no core healskill that heals allies. And this is one actually pretty interesting since its a blast finisher and increases healing, the more foes are hit.

Soothing Power-Trait:

One Suggestion to make healing builds easier.

Add to the trait Soothing Power, that soothing Mist pulses in every attunement, but in water its effectiveness is increased by 100%.

This would make Ele-Healers a Bit more beginner-friendly and give them+their group more sustain (solo+instanced)

 

Signet of Earth:

Increased toughness is bad when playing certain encounters in group content. Take a look at mechanist and change to flat 10 or 15% power-dmg reduction (mech has 10, but has better base stats).

 

Cleansing Wave:

Increase healing coeffiecent from 1.0 to 2.0

Its actually lower then water trident right now.

 

Soothing Disruption:

Give the boons to 5 allies too.

 

Staff:

This weapon needs next to cooldown reduction also a Casting time reduction. When you have to switch between attunements to share boons, there is no time for Casting a skill for several Seconds (being susceptable to attacks). Alternatively make them even more powerful.

 

Have a nice day and see you in Tyria ❤️

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by FreshF.5793
Added Soothing Mist-Idea for Soothing Power

[Kydar Schattendolch.6879]

With Untamed available, is it possible to update "Moment of Clarity" and "Predator's Onslaught" and add knockback and knochdown to the list of affected conditions?

 

This would synergize well.

For "Moment of Clarity" this means, the duration of these effects is increased like for stun and daze. 

Oh, and the Attack of Oppertunity should also be granted by interruptions inflicted by our pets 😃

 

For "Predator's Onslaught" this means, the dmg dealed is increased like for the other listed effects. 

 

Would be great. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Kydar Schattendolch.6879

[Hida Oni.7652]

Am i read that right? ANet nerf Mirage because he high performing? Did you see a lot of staff mirage in raids? Because i not seen them since like winter or so. Same for axes, since winter i seen maybe ONE axe mirage in raid, and you telling me that they are high performing?
ok, found video and post on  page 23 that they removing nerfs... at least player voices done their work.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Hida Oni.7652

[ZolracAtrox.2908]

11 hours ago, Brodix.5214 said:

in real fight power catalyst suck a little, every knockback, movment on boss make dps lower a lot, because u can't keep EE at 10 stack, thats mean EE should be easier to keep? like 8 stack ?

I said pvp tho

[Hesione.9412]

12 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

If u are lying or not only the combat logs can say, plus like i said, if you dont get the numbers what other people are getting rn just check your build, gear(stat infusions aswell) and options. Plus i have a feeling that u just didnt set the mech skills to auto-cast mode and now you are saying "well videos of people afk benching those 28k+ are just false". Also do you even play high end content? I couldnt care less about the open world stuff, its the instanced content where all the hate from people is coming from...and its not about that 28k afk bench do you realise???? The 28k is the floor of this degen build and with a few extra buttons this build becomes 36k +, 37k+ after patch, while beeing fully ranged and  LOW INTENSITY dps at the same time , one of the reasons why its so op in the eod strike cms aswell, AND they have that cleave damage too so its literally the best in slot build for any situation and you cant get punished in any way while playing it.

+show me any other build in this game which can do the same while not pressing ANYTHING..

This build is the reason why every single piece of end game content is on "easy mode" rn if you stack this, and the only people who are happy with this are the same people who are just too lazy to improve.. 

 I don't have any infusions on this character, just like many players don't have infusions. I set the function skills to auto attack. However, in testing, I found that either the rifle 1 can be set to auto attack, or the elite skill, but not both. In the interest of a more accurate field test, I set up rifle 1 as auto attack and then hit the elite skill when it was ready. While I'm only running 4 runes (golemancer), the rifle has force and paralysation sigils. I sacrificed some power for precision in order to get myself around 60% crit. 

The situation you're now describing is far removed from the reality of most players using mech. And the hate is directed at people playing in OW, perhaps not from you but certainly others complaining about mech.

I feel I need to repeat this: the benchmarks were done on a golem that, for the highest dps, was fully debuffed and I was fully buffed. The golem did not move, did not have a defiance bar, and did not fight back. That is the only situation in which an afk can do damage (ignoring the PvE afk farming spots). With a moving enemy, one that has a defiance bar, one that does knock-back, aoes, etc, positioning (e.g. dodging) and using defiance break-bar skills at the correct times is crucial to success. None of these can be performed while afk.

I also found that one can *either* auto attack with the weapon skills *or* auto attack with the elite skill but you *cannot* have auto attack toggled on for both simultaneously. So, for a truly afk build, the person must either not be using *any* of their weapon skills and have the elite automated *or* use no weapon skills and have the elite automated. This doesn't sound like a very good afk build.

[Angesombre.4630]

On 8/19/2022 at 12:43 AM, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Hi all,

The June 28 update highlighted that our approach to balancing professions and combat in Guild Wars 2 has not been fully aligned with the needs and expectations of our community. As we communicated in several posts over the last month and a half, we’re using this an opportunity to take a hard look at our internal processes and revise the Guild Wars 2 balance philosophy. We also added some new leaders into the team to help facilitate that effort. That work is still ongoing, and we look forward to sharing our updated balance philosophy with you as soon as we can.

As we’ve been reading through your feedback on the August 23 preview, it became clear to us that one aspect of the previous balance approach was especially problematic. Specifically, making balance adjustments to PvE builds based on their potential under unrealistic, ideal conditions – conditions that are unlikely to be met unless you’re testing against a golem, or the player is extremely skilled. While these builds can definitely be an issue in a skilled player’s hands, often times the changes have an outsized impact to unrelated builds and average players. With that in mind, we’ll be reverting the changes to mirage in the August 23 update.

This change in approach raises questions about previous changes that were made with a build’s ‘potential’ in mind, rather than the realistic output. We’ll be evaluating those prior changes on a case-by-case basis in future releases. This isn’t to say that we won’t address overperforming builds in the future, but we will focus more on builds that are dominating the meta, rather than builds that could theoretically dominate.

For reference, these are the mirage changes that are being removed from the August 23 update:

Axe:

·         Lingering Thoughts: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

·         Imaginary Axes: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

Staff:

·         Chaos Vortex (Staff Ambush) (PvE only) Might stack count reduced from 8 to 5, Might duration reduced from 15s to 10s. Torment, Bleeding, and Confusion duration reduced from 8s to 7s.

Thanks,

Josh

I'm not against the backtracking that you have planned on the update of the 23, but checking the previous updates that you have done on the revenant that are for some without reason, random or just for really a stupid nerf. You don't plan to reevaluate the changes on this profession?

And you think about the negative impact on the revenants. Removal of the sigil on the change of legend which has considerably nerfed the revenant by pretexting that it was a bug whereas not ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Lets-Chat-Revenant-Masters-of-the-Mist/page/2#post4807746 ) at the exit of EoD, the change on the torment, the resistance with a mini compensation, Forced Engagement (triple nerf). The bugs of the vindicator which are present since the first beta on the dodge and the GS without counting its defects. That the vindicator is more a 2nd legend of heal? How do you think the revenants feel?

[KrakenAZ.9367]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:59 AM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

The net effect of this change is to increase condition damage dealt in solo and open-world play.

 

On 8/11/2022 at 7:59 AM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Spider Venom: (PvE only) Poison duration decreased from 4 seconds to 3 seconds

One of these things is not like the other.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 8/18/2022 at 6:43 PM, Josh Davis.7865 said:

As we’ve been reading through your feedback on the August 23 preview, it became clear to us that one aspect of the previous balance approach was especially problematic. Specifically, making balance adjustments to PvE builds based on their potential under unrealistic, ideal conditions – conditions that are unlikely to be met unless you’re testing against a golem, or the player is extremely skilled. While these builds can definitely be an issue in a skilled player’s hands, often times the changes have an outsized impact to unrelated builds and average players.

 

Might want to have a look at those Iboga numbers vs. other pets after the quickness fixes and precision updates. 

I think you'll find that Iboga only 'outperforms' under the exact scenario I've quoted--testing against a golem or player that is also a pianist by day.  

Edited August 20, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Saharo.5381]

On 8/18/2022 at 3:43 PM, Josh Davis.7865 said:

We also added some new leaders into the team to help facilitate that effort.

Put the person that said to revert WvW FB changes in charge. Cause they clearly know what's up, anyone on your team who didn't speak against this was lowkey clowning/should have no further WvW input.

 

On 8/18/2022 at 3:43 PM, Josh Davis.7865 said:

This isn’t to say that we won’t address overperforming builds in the future, but we will focus more on builds that are dominating the meta, rather than builds that could theoretically dominate.

Cool, so does that mean you're also reversing the One Wolf Park nerf? Since that only popped up on your radar after being in one of those "unrealistic" situations with speedrun Cata.

[Saharo.5381]

 

On 8/18/2022 at 1:52 PM, Martt.5123 said:

If you guys nerf medkit 1 and elixir gun 5 you guys will totally kill healing scrapper that isn't already popular! But there are players (like me) that enjoy it a lot! It is kinda contradictory as well since the patch should celebrate and embrace build diversity. Furthermore, you guys are literally assuming that us, players, just like big numbers or popular builds. I know that since the launch of mechanist, it seems the only elite class that engineer have, but nerfing engi core stats/skills isn't going to change the scenario, it will only make engi with even less build diverse! 

YES! Core engineer has suffered from the success of its elite specs since the beginning of time.

> Nerf holosmith by nerfing core

> Nerf mechanist by nerfing core

Please don't do this. You will force every core engi/scrapper player to mutate into a mechanist player. Do not push the Mech Singularity agenda on us.

[soul.9651]

5 hours ago, Hesione.9412 said:

 I don't have any infusions on this character, just like many players don't have infusions. I set the function skills to auto attack. However, in testing, I found that either the rifle 1 can be set to auto attack, or the elite skill, but not both. In the interest of a more accurate field test, I set up rifle 1 as auto attack and then hit the elite skill when it was ready. While I'm only running 4 runes (golemancer), the rifle has force and paralysation sigils. I sacrificed some power for precision in order to get myself around 60% crit. 

The situation you're now describing is far removed from the reality of most players using mech. And the hate is directed at people playing in OW, perhaps not from you but certainly others complaining about mech.

I feel I need to repeat this: the benchmarks were done on a golem that, for the highest dps, was fully debuffed and I was fully buffed. The golem did not move, did not have a defiance bar, and did not fight back. That is the only situation in which an afk can do damage (ignoring the PvE afk farming spots). With a moving enemy, one that has a defiance bar, one that does knock-back, aoes, etc, positioning (e.g. dodging) and using defiance break-bar skills at the correct times is crucial to success. None of these can be performed while afk.

I also found that one can *either* auto attack with the weapon skills *or* auto attack with the elite skill but you *cannot* have auto attack toggled on for both simultaneously. So, for a truly afk build, the person must either not be using *any* of their weapon skills and have the elite automated *or* use no weapon skills and have the elite automated. This doesn't sound like a very good afk build.

1) you just admitted that you dont have the proper build.

2) again with the open world, maybe some people dont like them there, but most of the people dont careee about the open world, you can stack as many rifle mechs as you want there and only a few will mind

3) the place where this build is problematic is high end instanced content, like raids, fracts, strike cms. And having all the boons you need in this type of content is very likely if you are in a proper group + there people most of the time will have optimized gear otherwise they wouldnt even be playing that type of content

 

So again rifle mech is just one of the most unbalanced builds they have made so far and i see no excuses why it should even exist as it is rn.

[Hesione.9412]

38 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

1) you just admitted that you dont have the proper build.

2) again with the open world, maybe some people dont like them there, but most of the people dont careee about the open world, you can stack as many rifle mechs as you want there and only a few will mind

3) the place where this build is problematic is high end instanced content, like raids, fracts, strike cms. And having all the boons you need in this type of content is very likely if you are in a proper group + there people most of the time will have optimized gear otherwise they wouldnt even be playing that type of content

 

So again rifle mech is just one of the most unbalanced builds they have made so far and i see no excuses why it should even exist as it is rn.

I'm running rifle mech. At least you're honest that your problem is rifle mechs in raids and similar. No idea what the raid build is, but it is likely to kill the player in OW because of the lack of supports.

But why should mech be nerfed when you are upset about a build that is being used in those situations? It will nerf all OW builds as well - and you don't seem to have a problem with a rifle build being used in OW. 

Why should any rifle mech build be nerfed only because it seems to be over-tuned under very specific, small-group circumstances? That punishes people who only/primarily play OW. And, as demonstrated, they are likely only to be hitting 11K - 15K dps. Should they be nerfed to under 10K?

[soul.9651]

1 hour ago, Hesione.9412 said:

I'm running rifle mech. At least you're honest that your problem is rifle mechs in raids and similar. No idea what the raid build is, but it is likely to kill the player in OW because of the lack of supports.

But why should mech be nerfed when you are upset about a build that is being used in those situations? It will nerf all OW builds as well - and you don't seem to have a problem with a rifle build being used in OW. 

Why should any rifle mech build be nerfed only because it seems to be over-tuned under very specific, small-group circumstances? That punishes people who only/primarily play OW. And, as demonstrated, they are likely only to be hitting 11K - 15K dps. Should they be nerfed to under 10K?

Because all of the balance notes are specifically affecting pve high end content the most. The only people who should care about games balance are high end pve or pvp wvw people, because they are affected the most by it

Im not saying that in OW game balance doesnt matter, but lets say they nerfed rifle mech by 3 or 4k from the current benchmark: the open world people wouldnt even notice the difference meanwhile in high end instanced content rifle mech would be way less opressive from how it is rn.

And one last mention about your 11-15k, even if anet nerfed the benchmark by 3-4k if u had a proper gear( lets say full berserkers with exotic gear, right sigils, and all 6runes, foods and so on... And you dont even need stat infusions) Your 11-15k would become 20k+ ... so if anet nerfed rifle mech but you fixed you gear you still would be hitting more.. which just show again: games balance is less relevant for OW players..

Edited August 20, 2022 by soul.9651

[Hesione.9412]

1 hour ago, soul.9651 said:

Because all of the balance notes are specifically affecting pve high end content the most. The only people who should care about games balance are high end pve or pvp wvw people, because they are affected the most by it

Im not saying that in OW game balance doesnt matter, but lets say they nerfed rifle mech by 3 or 4k from the current benchmark: the open world people wouldnt even notice the difference meanwhile in high end instanced content rifle mech would be way less opressive from how it is rn.

And one last mention about your 11-15k, even if anet nerfed the benchmark by 3-4k if u had a proper gear( lets say full berserkers with exotic gear, right sigils, and all 6runes, foods and so on... And you dont even need stat infusions) Your 11-15k would become 20k+ ... so if anet nerfed rifle mech but you fixed you gear you still would be hitting more.. which just show again: games balance is less relevant for OW players..

You're arguing that any nerf to mechanist won't have much, if any, effect on OW players? 

[soul.9651]

12 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

You're arguing that any nerf to mechanist won't have much, if any, effect on OW players? 

Depending how they would nerf it, but they are not gonna just delete rifle mech, they need just to tone it down which would have 0 effect on OW people anyway because like you just admitted yourself you dont have a proper build, so its not even a balance issue for you its a gear and build issue....

[Tails.9372]

3 hours ago, Hesione.9412 said:

Why should any rifle mech build be nerfed only because it seems to be over-tuned under very specific, small-group circumstances?

That's just the thing: it doesn't. Look at the logs and you see that the fabled "11111" player is almost non existent in high level play and while power rifle mech usually does good damage (as you should expect from a DPS build) its still routhly on paar with where everyone else is unless someone actually goes for the meme gameplay then he's easily beaten by the other DPS players in the group.

The only area where rifle mech actually "overperforms" is in low skill PuGs but that's generally true for every LI build and the real issue here is not the rifle mech but this situation: The squad leader just wants to get their daily strikes done and wants some DPS players for the remaining spots. Now who do you think he would rather take A: the Elementalist who swears he knows how to play his class (reminding him of all the others which came before him and said the exact same thing just to turn out to be <5k DPS) or B: the rifle mech who might not be the optimal choice but can at least be expected to do >10k DPS? Also, nerfing rifle mech would do nothing to remedy the situation as people are yet again confusing the symptoms with the root cause of the issue. Bringing the baseline for DPS builds up to be roughly on par with where rifle mech is rn however would.

The only issue the mech is actually responsible for is the insane visual bloat and should be addressed accordingly by at least giving us the option to hide minions / pets from allied players (although the ability to dye the mech would be appreciated).

[Pooh.6897]

With the incoming launch on Steam, I'd like Anet to take a good look at every single class and try to make everything more complete. Because I really like Necromancer, I have a few suggestions for Necro. Remember, this is just my wishlist. I hope someone from the balancing team sees this and I hope it can give them some inspiration or ideas. I'm not really worrying about something being overpowered or not, I trust that Anet can balance it afterwards.

• Add a Spectral Healing Skill.
• Add a Spectral-themed trait (and put it in Soul Reaping).
• Change Lich Form so that skills count as Shroud skills.
• Add an Elite Well skill.
• Revise/Rebalance Minions (make it so minions can inherit all stats from the necromancer, or find another way to boost minion damage and survivability).
• Fuse Soul Marks with the Grandmaster Death Nova trait and focus it more on Staff. Give staff a Mark that can spawn minions.
• Shorten the CD on Spectral Ring.
• Axe buffs maybe? =3
• Give boon removal / boon corruption skills some sort of value in PvE.

[soul.9651]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

 

The only area where rifle mech actually "overperforms" is in low skill PuGs 

I mean i would agree only partially, yes people stack mechs at low skill pugs, do you know where else do they stack mechs? At dhuum cm and ht cm groups, so according to you those are low skill aswell? When people literally ask 50kp to join those groups as minimum, iv seen numbers going to 250 dhuum kp and guess what they are stacking there. And this is just one example, you cant just say that only low skill groups stack rifle mechs

And sure virtuosos are stacked at ht cm aswell but rn the main topic is rifle mech. + At least virtuoso needs some interaction, while rifle mech gets 28k dps for free and then if u push other 4 keys its 36-37k for no good reason

Edited August 20, 2022 by soul.9651

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 minute ago, soul.9651 said:

I mean i would agree only partially, yes people stack mechs at low skill pugs, do you know where else do they stack mechs? At dhuum cm and ht cm groups, so according to you those are low skill aswell? When people literally ask minimum 50kp to join those groups as minimum, iv seen numbers going to 250 dhuum kp and guess what they are stacking there.

They're stacking core Elementalists of course. What an easy question that was.

[Tails.9372]

57 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

At dhuum cm and ht cm groups, so according to you those are low skill aswell?

No, you're just drawing a false equivalency here. As I said PuG commanders generally don't want to be stuck for an hour in neither the LFG nor the instance so they're just taking the safe option (as in not risking to end up with an <5k DPS "hi DPS" player) over the potentially optimal one but like I said the logs don't show rifle mech overperforming in groups where everyone actually knows what hes doing. For example this is the fastest Dhuum CM log after they made the most recent balance changes, half the group was playing mech but how did things actually perform? As you can see 2 mechs were playing support, 2 mechs were playing power DPS and 1 mech was playing coni DPS. The ones playing power DPS where on place 6 and 8 respectively outperformed by several support hybrids as "DPS only" and neither of them where just pressing "1" either. The logs just don't show any evidence of power Rifle Mech "dominating the high level meta" which they would have to if this build was actually "over-performing" in these environments.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Tails.9372