Making commanding more satisfying? A "Player rep" system

[Taclism.2406]

Last edit : Finally found a fitting title
Basically with the Steam release, something you keep hearing is "be nice to new players, help them have a good experience, lead them to cool content" , and I'm just thinking "why would I?"
Not that I just like being a kitten, I've had lovely chats with new players, moreso I've been thinking about my experience commanding squads, be it for metas (mostly DE in the first 2 months of eod) or forming and teaching strikes on EOD's release / whenever there's none in lfg for IBS strikes ; and how often people are downright ungrateful or insulting whenever things dont work out (first try). How commanding generally feels unrewarding and almost demotivating. Or at the very least, I almost never feel like doing it anymore.
It still has smaller perks like having people follow you for bounties in pof and being able to places logos on strikes when someone needs a brief, but I still somewhat regret the 300g spent for it.

Now I'm aware my experience is also due to the content I like to run. If I was doing world bosses squads I probably wouldnt have seen this much frustration. But I'm still thinking there should be more incentives for leading. In WvW, you do get extra pips on the weekly chest for it. But in PvE there is none. So how would you feel about some sort of extra rewards / commander track? I know it wont solve everything "just like that" but I feel like its a step that'll be good for both new players that need guidance, and one extra source of motivation for veterans.
EDIT : I also believe "experiencing leadership" and realizing its not all that easy would make many a bit more considerate when talking in groups that failed their goal

EDIT 2 : Reading all of your replies (basically no more rewards), I'll deviate towards another idea that don't give any "actual" reward but stay in the spirit of putting a tag up, and could help make commanding way more satisfying regardless : 

Once per account, after you beat a meta / raid / strike , every squad member get the possibility to "tag" their squad leader(/mentor) with "Answers questions" , "Good lead",  "Entertaining" , "Polite".  Basically varied positive traits.
When you form a group and go in LFG, the amount of each tag you received shows up (in the lfg window only).
The "reward" is not only having feedback as to whether or not you did a good job (/ help underlying complainers are often outliers), but also acting as a sort of player rep system, which helps finding groups leaders / members that suit you.

Also removing poll since that new idea makes every vote so far obselete
 /discuss

Edited August 18, 2022 by Taclism.2406

[Ashen.2907]

Ultimately I would be concerned by people pursuing commander tags for the sake of associated rewards rather than the opportunity to lead groups to successful completion of events, etc. Ive seen all too many examples of a map covered by skittles already and would not want that to get worse.

[kharmin.7683]

I grabbed mine just before the cost doubled so that I would have it in case I ever decided to use it.

Still haven't used it.

[mindcircus.1506]

13 minutes ago, Taclism.2406 said:

Slightly clickbait title but I'm not sure how to better sum it up.

Basically with the Steam release, something you keep hearing is "be nice to new players, help them have a good experience, lead them to cool content" , and I'm just thinking "why would I?"
Not that I just like being a kitten, I've had lovely chats with new players, moreso I've been thinking about my experience commanding squads, be it for metas (mostly DE in the first 2 months of eod) or forming and teaching strikes on EOD's release / whenever there's none in lfg for IBS strikes ; and how it more often people are downright ungrateful or insulting whenever things dont work out (first try). How commanding generally feels unrewarding and almost demotivating. 
It still has smaller perks like having people follow you for bounties in pof and being able to places logos on strikes when someone needs a brief, but I still somewhat regret the 300g spent for it.

Now I'm aware my experience is also due to the content I like to run. If I was doing world bosses squads I probably wouldnt have seen this much frustration. But I'm still thinking there should be more incentives for leading. In WvW, you do get extra tics on the weekly chest for it. But in PvE there is none. So how would you feel about some sort of extra rewards / commander track? I know it wont solve everything "just like that" but I feel like its a step that'll be good for both new players that need guidance, and one extra source of motivation for veterans.

 /discuss

Using the Steam release to argue for more rewards is the new black.

[neighto.7386]

Have had it since year one of the game... and I use it here and there for JPS, Bounties, events.. basically anything that requires more players to "show up"   That is the reward of it, definitely doesn't need any other sort of reward tied to it at all.

[Taclism.2406]

11 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Using the Steam release to argue for more rewards is the new black.

I mean more players means we'll also need more commanders.

Ultimately, the goal is improving the Commander experience, which from my sujective experience, was bad. Hence the poll
Rewards are just the mean. Could just be an achievement instead, but that's less incentivising and I don't have other ideas (that are way too elaborate)

Maybe I should have added a question like "are you happy with the state of commanding", but I felt like its covered by picking "no, the reward is having players follow you"
 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Taclism.2406

[mindcircus.1506]

1 minute ago, Taclism.2406 said:

Ultimately, the goal is improving the Commander experience, which from my sujective experience, was bad. Hence the poll
Rewards are just the mean. Could just be an achievement instead, but that's less incentivising and I don't have other ideas (that are way too elaborate for the discusssion)

Maybe I should have added a question like "are you happy with the state of commanding", but I felt like its covered by picking "no, the reward is having players follow you"

This doesn't change the fact that your solution was "moar loots plz".
No achievement, no extra bag of blue unids, no buff in your Karma is going to address the underlying issues you are pointing out.

This has ZERO to do with Steam.... why position it as such?

[Parasite.5389]

the Commander tag has some useful functionality for Raiding, Metas, Endgame content; but none of that is required to help, or benefits 'new players'

if you want to help lead new playesr to content, then use the Mentor tag, as it was designed to be used.

[Farohna.6247]

I use my frequently in open world to get people to come to events or if I see a champion in particular that I know other players may need for a collection.  I use it to mark where something is, like a daily or mini dungeon, or at the end of a jumping puzzle if no mesmers are porting for people to TP to a friend.  I use it to get people on a map for a meta.  I originally bought it because I wanted the cats lol. 

No, I don't think there is a reason to give more incentives.  It benefits the individual as well as the group by getting more players to a location or by grouping together in WvW.  If you're worried about comms needing rewards, tip them.  Everything doesn't need an achievement list, and I love achievements.

[Linken.6345]

If you dont want to use a commander tag for metas use apple tag.

[Ashen.2907]

11 minutes ago, Taclism.2406 said:

Ibut I felt like its covered by picking "no, the reward is having players follow you"
 

I found that one questionable because, for me, the reward isn't people following me, the reward is all of us getting a win (which is facilitated by the tag's visibility). Anyone going into a leadership position for the sake of (perceived) power over others, or a desire for others to follow them, and so on are arguably the last people you want leading.

[DarcShriek.5829]

For people that are primarily Open World PvE, it's not worth it.  It's best for Raids and WvW.

[Taclism.2406]

44 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

why position it as such?

for the one sentence I added in while you were replying. Bad timing.
"I mean more players means we'll also need more commanders." 

 

39 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I found that one questionable because, for me, the reward isn't people following me, the reward is all of us getting a win (which is facilitated by the tag's visibility). Anyone going into a leadership position for the sake of (perceived) power over others, or a desire for others to follow them, and so on are arguably the last people you want leading.

Why try to paint a character if you get the point of that answer
EDIT :  Fine I guess, I added the visibility point to make it more obvious its what I meant

Edited August 17, 2022 by Taclism.2406

[ShadowCatz.8437]

20 minutes ago, Parasite.5389 said:

the Commander tag has some useful functionality for Raiding, Metas, Endgame content; but none of that is required to help, or benefits 'new players'

if you want to help lead new playesr to content, then use the Mentor tag, as it was designed to be used.

I strongly disagree as Mentor tag doesn't provide tools like having different colours or icon (cat commander vs default tag) to point attention to which group is doing what on a map with several groups of player doing different things. Don't know how many times someone asked for help and just pointed to a Tag (Mentor Tag) without giving any information where on map they are and before you even can find them they are gone.

Edited August 17, 2022 by ShadowCatz.8437

[mindcircus.1506]

3 minutes ago, Taclism.2406 said:

for the one sentence I added in while you were replying. Bad timing.
"I mean more players means we'll also need more commanders." 

 

Why try to paint a character if you get the point of that answer

And these new players are going to need people tagged up because....
Hero points in Metrica require a group?

[mindcircus.1506]

21 minutes ago, Parasite.5389 said:

if you want to help lead new playesr to content, then use the Mentor tag, as it was designed to be used.

Asking this game's playerbase to properly use the Mentor Tag instead of the call for help it's being used as now is a pretty big ask.

[ShadowCatz.8437]

2 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

And these new players are going to need people tagged up because....
Hero points in Metrica require a group?

Do you even have a Commander Tag or even used it in PvE to guide people with content?

[Gibson.4036]

Wouldn't increased rewards just cause people to run their tags all the time? With lots of people tagged on a map, no intention to lead, it'd make the tag meaningless.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[mindcircus.1506]

Just now, ShadowCatz.8437 said:

Do you even have a Commander Tag or even used it in PvE to guide people with content?

Of course I do.
I lead metas and strikes all the time.
What I don't feel the need to do is smother new players who are enjoying the game for the first time, trivialize low level content for them because I don't believe them capable, and start forum threads asking for more gold/hour than someone who doesn't tag up.

[kharmin.7683]

3 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Wouldn't increased rewards just cause people to run their tags all the time. With lots of people tagged on a map, no intention to lead, it'd make the tag meaningless.

Yes.  Yes it would.

[Taclism.2406]

3 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

And these new players are going to need people tagged up because....
Hero points in Metrica require a group?

do you think hitting level 80 makes people no longer new?

[Ashen.2907]

25 minutes ago, Taclism.2406 said:

for the one sentence I added in while you were replying. Bad timing.
"I mean more players means we'll also need more commanders." 

 

Why try to paint a character if you get the point of that answer

Because the point of the answer seemed to be about people who are in it for the perceived power.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

A commander tag already pays for itself if you know how to use it.  The ability to summon and control hordes of faceless players is an extremely valuable tool for getting your own goals done.  

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Just so you know, the Commander tag already offers increased rewards in WvW (the pip bonus is huge), yet we also don't see tags popping up all over the place because leading is hard, and players insult you alot if you make a mistake. So I doubt it would be as epidemic as PvE as some players seem to think it'd be.

[Labjax.2465]

Something minor that is modeled after the WvW buff (if leading a squad of x number of people, get a slight boost to rewards) might be ok. The candidate I think of that could be minor enough for open world is map bonus (like the VB/AB type potions). Like if you are leading a squad with x number of players, you get a slight boost to map bonus %.

Personally though, the closest I come to commanding metas for material rewards is helping ensure it's a success so I don't waste my time on a fail. Apart from that, I'm doing it to give back to the community and because I enjoy it (when I have the energy for it).

As nice as it would be to get bonus rewards for doing it, I wouldn't want to feel like my other reasons are being taken over by a farming mindset and I'm doing it when I don't want to just to get to an item I want slightly faster.

As it is, some commanders in some situations do get a bonus, it's just dependent on whether any players want to tip. I have mixed feelings on those. I've accepted them the few times I've gotten them (I think it was basically just a couple times doing drizzlewood), but I would never want anyone to feel like they need to hand over gold they just farmed to tip a commander. As I saw one commander say who does bauble farm in AB.... something to the effect of (I'm paraphrasing) "I appreciate your tips, but I will be sending them back. The point of bauble farm is to make gold."

In general, it's kinda like the JP port culture in that I have some fear that increased rewards would undermine the giving nature of it.

There's also just the effort/reward ratio to consider. In WvW, commanders are generally on the move most of the time (unless in the middle of sieging if no one is guarding) and have to make a lot of decisions and deal with the consequences. By comparison, many meta commanders can get away with being a LFG taxi and never saying a word, so it doesn't make a lot of sense from that standpoint to reward someone more just because they paid the 300g (or 100g if they got it back in the day).