So are we getting our 2nd dodge back now that we're "undoing espec tradeoffs?"

[JazzXman.7018]

9 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

When I played Mirage I used the dodge to spam Ambushes while taking no damage

and that is exactly how it shouldnt be, that was exactly my point.^^

the ambush design needs to be built in a way that it forces you to dodge well timed for ambush rewards only, means while you are actually NOT IN NEED to dodge an attack to maximise your offensive/ utilitybased impact with mirage. ambsuhes also need to force comboing with other skills (weapon and shatterskills) to get reward from the amhushes. since just spamming the ambushes by themself for some additional low effort direct dmg is not how mirage should work. 

 

thats why the ambush rewards need to be mainly utility based and not simple direct dmg spam (neither condi nor power dmg). the ambush should just support and prebuff the weapon and shatter skills not be the dmg themself. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[draxynnic.3719]

21 hours ago, Vinny.7260 said:

All you have to do, imo, to give Mirage the second dodge is remove Desert Distortion. It's such a massive trait for Mirage and giving its second dodge back without nerfing the dodge traits, would bring us up.

That would be a significant hit to alacmirage. Which is why my suggestion was to make Desert Distortion the baseline F4 - only giving one second of distortion regardless, but generating a mirage mirror for each clone shattered.

But that suggestion was made while tradeoffs was the policy.

[Vinny.7260]

31 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That would be a significant hit to alacmirage. Which is why my suggestion was to make Desert Distortion the baseline F4 - only giving one second of distortion regardless, but generating a mirage mirror for each clone shattered.

But that suggestion was made while tradeoffs was the policy.

That's true, perhaps they could do something along the lines of improving utilities that generate mirrors instead to compensate for it. It's really complicated without removing Blurred Inscriptions because of Inspiration needing it to reliably grant allies Aegis...

[godfat.2604]

I really hate Desert Distortion because it’s very clunky, and can we compensate with longer duration (both boons and conditions), instead of adding more mirrors? Or maybe make clones do stronger ambush when Distortion is used. Anything that doesn’t force us to chase the mirrors, nor give more evade frames. Distortion itself is a very strong defense already. If Mirage needs more defense, add it somewhere else.

I also really hate Blurred Inscriptions that’s another trait to ask us to spam skills, beside unhealthy invulnerabilities. Move the defense to something and somewhere else please.

[phokus.8934]

Mirage Mirrors need to fall around the Mesmer and not the clones.

I can't be the only one who is concerned what they're going to do with Mirage Cloak.

[Waffles.5632]

1 hour ago, phokus.8934 said:

Mirage Mirrors need to fall around the Mesmer and not the clones.

I can't be the only one who is concerned what they're going to do with Mirage Cloak.

I am deeply concerned as well.

Mirage Cloak cannot change as is otherwise the entire class identity is ruined. The whole point of Mirage is getting both offense and defense. Being able to evade during any other action. It is what makes the class alongside the trait Infinite Horizon.

 

imo they should nerf condi mirage in pvp to the ground even more, not every play style needs to be viable everywhere. Power Mirage is way more balanced and fair to play against, and virtu can slip in as the new condi spec if anet really wants to have a mesmer pvp condi spec.

 

Part of me at this point tho is just like undo every single Mirage nerf because of how oppressive PvP has become. Mirage is no longer the terror or threat that people remember, not with the new specs in town. Just my 2c tho.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[otto.5684]

Spvp and pve, returning the second dodge does not need a trade-off. Mirage was not exactly top meta with 2 dodge, after all the previous nerfs.
 

I would like that clones not to deal or be a factor in ambushes damage, with the damage being distributed among base skills, but for some reason Anet are insisting on ranged clones dealing condi damage and yet keep nerfing mirage to compensate for that.

[Moradorin.6217]

4 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

Mirage Mirrors need to fall around the Mesmer and not the clones.

I can't be the only one who is concerned what they're going to do with Mirage Cloak.

Depending what else changed it could be fine as is to me, but generally totally agree with the suggestion that mirrors spawning at each clone, specifically for pvp/wvw, is not an effective way to offer useful sources for evade frames to Mirage. random locations within a radius would be more random and require both Mirage and opponent to respond quickly to take advantage of mirror placements.

 

Also, I'm inclined to agree with Otto's  suggestion that, "ambush damage could perhaps get shifted to the Mirage instead of from the clones" [paraphrased]. I think this seems like the only/best way to eliminate the, "can still do damage while stunned" issue that becomes the crux of, balance problems other then peoples various bias about play styles.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[Mell.4873]

8 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

The whole point of mirage is the ambush and mirage cloak mechanic, remove damage from ambush and nothing is left but a worse dodge.

It's unbelievable the most sane thing you wrote on this forum was a troll thread.

I never said they should remove it sorry I never re-stated the solution. Putting a cooldown on the Ambush would be my ideal solutions so you cant spam them back to back, maybe 10 seconds; 5 seconds lower than the Untamed Ambush.

8 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

and that is exactly how it shouldnt be, that was exactly my point.^^

the ambush design needs to be built in a way that it forces you to dodge well timed for ambush rewards only, means while you are actually NOT IN NEED to dodge an attack to maximise your offensive/ utilitybased impact with mirage. ambsuhes also need to force comboing with other skills (weapon and shatterskills) to get reward from the amhushes. since just spamming the ambushes by themself for some additional low effort direct dmg is not how mirage should work. 

Well this is what the Devs are trying to fix. Like I said I can only see two solutions, either less survivability or less damage to compensate for the return of the 2nd dodges.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

9 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I never said they should remove it sorry I never re-stated the solution. Putting a cooldown on the Ambush would be my ideal solutions so you cant spam them back to back, maybe 10 seconds; 5 seconds lower than the Untamed Ambush.

Well this is what the Devs are trying to fix. Like I said I can only see two solutions, either less survivability or less damage to compensate for the return of the 2nd dodges.

So you can only dodge once every 10sec to get the maximum benefit, seems like one dodge mirage to me.

Mirage survivability is tied to garbage like chaos,  inspi and condi nonsense, power mirage was never a problem so MC was never a problem as well especially after the vigor nerfs.

[Mell.4873]

20 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So you can only dodge once every 10sec to get the maximum benefit, seems like one dodge mirage to me.

Or you can dodge twice and Ambush once. Seems fare to me, you still benefit from all the dodge traits just nothing to do with Ambush's.

I mean the dilemma we are stuck in is due to no one being happy about the any solution other than returning the second dodge without any trade-off. Which we all know Arena Net don't want so either we can brainstorm a trade-off or we have no second dodge forever.

I'm not against the return of the second dodge, I'm all for it. The problem is I don't think the Devs will allow it without the trade-off so rather than shooting the messenger lets find a good solution to recommend.
The other option is Mirage Dodge still allows you to be CC'ed.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Mell.4873

[draxynnic.3719]

17 hours ago, Vinny.7260 said:

That's true, perhaps they could do something along the lines of improving utilities that generate mirrors instead to compensate for it. It's really complicated without removing Blurred Inscriptions because of Inspiration needing it to reliably grant allies Aegis...

Blurred Inscriptions could be handled simply by changing that trait so that the aegis gets granted to allies directly from Blurred Inscriptions.

Or, make Blurred Inscriptions simply have signets grant aegis to the mesmer, but change Inspiring Distortion so that it also triggers whenever the mesmer gives themself aegis. This would actually open up more options for mesmer aegis sharing, possibly even to levels where some builds might compete with guardian, while also nerfing Blurred Inscriptions.

 

11 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So you can only dodge once every 10sec to get the maximum benefit, seems like one dodge mirage to me.

I think the distinction here is that you can have one dodge that grants you the ambush, but you still have one dodge in reserve for defensive purposes. So it still has the offensive capability of one dodge mirage, but doesn't have the "they just used their dodge to attack and now they're vulnerable" factor quite so much.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

13 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Or you can dodge twice and Ambush once. Seems fare to me, you still benefit from all the dodge traits just nothing to do with Ambush's.

I mean the dilemma we are stuck in is due to no one being happy about the any solution other than returning the second dodge without any trade-off. Which we all know Arena Net don't want so either we can brainstorm a trade-off or we have no second dodge forever.

I'm not against the return of the second dodge, I'm all for it. The problem is I don't think the Devs will allow it without the trade-off so rather than shooting the messenger lets find a good solution to recommend.
The other option is Mirage Dodge still allows you to be CC'ed.

You know that MC without the offensive capability is a worse dodge? So half of the time you're stuck with a worse dodge that doesn't allow to get out of aoe/to create gaps and god forbid you have chill on you.

There's no dilemma, vigor was nerfed into oblivion, MC movement was nerfed into oblivion, several traits got nerfed in chaos/duel/dom, seems like plenty of trade off for 2 dodges.
And fear not ANerf will grant your wishes and nerf further mirage, return the 2nd dodge and everyone will cheer them.
It's the same tactic the governments use:

Gov - we'll have to increase the price of energy by 20% 
Population rages
Gov - turns out we can do it increasing only by 10%
Population rejoice

And once again MC couldn't be used while hard cc'ed was something every single mesmer said that should happen since the kittening beta. (according to Terror can't be done tho)
Which means if they did that than they would have to unnerf every vigor change.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Lincolnbeard.1735