So are we getting our 2nd dodge back now that we're "undoing espec tradeoffs?"

[rune.9572]

Or just one meaningless buff to a skill nobody uses, and 2 nerfs to other skills that also nobody uses? XD

Edited September 17, 2022 by rune.9572

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

We are getting our 2nd dodge back

[zealex.9410]

2 minutes ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

We are getting our 2nd dodge back

Potentially.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Betting there will be a disastrous nerf to compensate for the return of the second dodge.

[Veprovina.4876]

13 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Betting there will be a disastrous nerf to compensate for the return of the second dodge.

Now, don't jinx it, they are doing well so far, more or less, let's just see what happens. 🙂

I mean, if they do that, then what's the point, even with a 2nd dodge back, mirage won't be any more powerful than it is now, we'll just have a bit less jank to deal with when switching modes.

Hell, i might even use it as WvW alac provider lmao. 😄

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Now, don't jinx it, they are doing well so far, more or less, let's just see what happens. 🙂

I mean, if they do that, then what's the point, even with a 2nd dodge back, mirage won't be any more powerful than it is now, we'll just have a bit less jank to deal with when switching modes.

Hell, i might even use it as WvW alac provider lmao. 😄

Let's wait and see.

[draxynnic.3719]

They've foreshadowed that getting the second dodge back is likely to end up costing something somewhere else, probably another source of mitigation or sustain elsewhere on the specialisation. I've discussed my own thoughts on what that could be before, but that involved making Desert Distortion baseline and replacing regular Distortion, which would seem to be going against the current trend with regular Distortion now coming back on Chronomancer and Virtuoso.

[Veprovina.4876]

15 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

They've foreshadowed that getting the second dodge back is likely to end up costing something somewhere else, probably another source of mitigation or sustain elsewhere on the specialisation. I've discussed my own thoughts on what that could be before, but that involved making Desert Distortion baseline and replacing regular Distortion, which would seem to be going against the current trend with regular Distortion now coming back on Chronomancer and Virtuoso.

Yeah, except, they already took away so much that returning the dodge won't have any adverse effects.

There's literally nothing to take away anymore, they already took that away before AND after the dodge nerf.

 

And since after the dodge nerf, they never reverted any of the nerfs that were supposed to balance out the 1 dodge, taking away even more is just dumb.

 

There are no more "tradeoffs" to this, they already nerfed everything to the point that 2 dodges won't be "OP", it will just be fair.

 

And if you still think mirage neeeds tradeoffs, or any mesmer spec for that matter, then you clearly don't know how they masively destroyed mesmers.

 

And since firebrand by default has more in its kit than 3 mesmer specs combined - "tradeoffs" is just a lazy word for nerf.

How about we give firebrands some tradeoffs huh? See how they like it?

 

Do we constantly with a straight face have to talk about taking away something YET AGAIN after all they took from us when firebrand exists?

 

Just stop.

[rune.9572]

ah yes

"we'll give mirage the dodge back, but make sure it remains gutted by throwing random nonsense changes at it so it continues to be played by absolutely nobody"

anet logic

Edited September 18, 2022 by rune.9572

[Veprovina.4876]

30 minutes ago, rune.9572 said:

ah yes

"we'll give mirage the dodge back, but make sure it remains gutted by throwing random nonsense changes at it so it continues to be played by absolutely nobody"

anet logic

Well, let's hope they're fair this time.
Although, nerfing the only blockable boonstrip in the game...

Like, every time they do something that makes sense, they have to do something that just makes you go "kitten was that for"?

 

Oh well, at least chrono gets distortion back.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Most likely if they are returning our dodge then we are going to get being able to dodge while CCed removed. If this was the case then Mirage cloak will be much worse then a regular dodge. At that point you might as well just scrap mirage and redo the whole spec.

[Veprovina.4876]

Just now, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Most likely if they are returning our dodge then we are going to get being able to dodge while CCed removed. If this was the case then Mirage cloak will be much worse then a regular dodge. At that point you might as well just scrap mirage and redo the whole spec.

Agree. I mean, wtf is it even called mirage dodge at that point right?

Sure you have mirrors, and some deception skills also "dodge" for you, but mirrors were always pointless in WvW, and that one skill that does mirage cloak isn't worth losing mirage cloak for.

 

Idk, personally, just returning the dodge would be a bare minimum, mirage would still be hard to play as since the damage it does is almost nothing compared on how much damage some other specs can dish out AND have better utility.

 

Like, at least, return the dodge first, then let's see how mirage performs, you know?

We'll see.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just now, Veprovina.4876 said:

Agree. I mean, wtf is it even called mirage dodge at that point right?

Sure you have mirrors, and some deception skills also "dodge" for you, but mirrors were always pointless in WvW, and that one skill that does mirage cloak isn't worth losing mirage cloak for.

 

Idk, personally, just returning the dodge would be a bare minimum, mirage would still be hard to play as since the damage it does is almost nothing compared on how much damage some other specs can dish out AND have better utility.

 

Like, at least, return the dodge first, then let's see how mirage performs, you know?

We'll see.

Mirage had less "evade" in comparison with other classes even pre dodge nerf. This includes blocks, invul, evade, etc. 

[Veprovina.4876]

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Mirage had less "evade" in comparison with other classes even pre dodge nerf. This includes blocks, invul, evade, etc. 

Yup! As i said. There's nothing more to trade for that dodge, the dodge should just be returned, period.

I mean, i know i'm dragging the Firebrand comparison a lot already but like, seriously, how is anyone in their right mind considering tradeoffs when that exists?

 

Just return the dodge, we already gave everything else.

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Yeah, except, they already took away so much that returning the dodge won't have any adverse effects.

There's literally nothing to take away anymore, they already took that away before AND after the dodge nerf.

 

And since after the dodge nerf, they never reverted any of the nerfs that were supposed to balance out the 1 dodge, taking away even more is just dumb.

 

There are no more "tradeoffs" to this, they already nerfed everything to the point that 2 dodges won't be "OP", it will just be fair.

 

And if you still think mirage neeeds tradeoffs, or any mesmer spec for that matter, then you clearly don't know how they masively destroyed mesmers.

 

And since firebrand by default has more in its kit than 3 mesmer specs combined - "tradeoffs" is just a lazy word for nerf.

How about we give firebrands some tradeoffs huh? See how they like it?

 

Do we constantly with a straight face have to talk about taking away something YET AGAIN after all they took from us when firebrand exists?

 

Just stop.

First, shooting the messenger won't change what was said on the livestream.

Mirage does have the potential for a lot of back-to-back defence. F4 alone is potentially four seconds of distortion and mirrors for more evade frames, and there's potential to add quite a bit more extra survivability in there. Personally, I'm inclined to think that the post-EoD meta probably could absorb two-dodge mirages - but they are knocking down the tall poppies, and they indicated that they were looking to make changes alongside giving back the second dodge to avoid making it too strong in the process.

Regarding firebrand: it's food-tier in sPvP. In that mode at least, it's traded off more than enough. In WvW, it's pretty much being carried by stability.

[Kulvar.1239]

[DELETED]

Edited September 19, 2022 by Kulvar.1239

[Yoci.2481]

They should just nerf Blurred Inscriptions. They should have done that anyway. They should have done that because of Virtuoso getting Distortion. And they can do it as compensation for 2 dodge Mirage.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Yoci.2481 said:

They should just nerf Blurred Inscriptions. They should have done that anyway. They should have done that because of Virtuoso getting Distortion. And they can do it as compensation for 2 dodge Mirage.

Yeah, I could definitely see that happening. Maybe cut out the middleman and just make the signets grant aegis to you and your allies with the trait, although that would imply a rename.

[Vinny.7260]

All you have to do, imo, to give Mirage the second dodge is remove Desert Distortion. It's such a massive trait for Mirage and giving its second dodge back without nerfing the dodge traits, would bring us up.

[Money.7218]

i don't think, they don't want to see spec with bad design come back(mechanist, scourge,Mirage or even fb in pvp)

[Mell.4873]

On 9/19/2022 at 9:42 AM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Most likely if they are returning our dodge then we are going to get being able to dodge while CCed removed. If this was the case then Mirage cloak will be much worse then a regular dodge. At that point you might as well just scrap mirage and redo the whole spec.

If I was to have a guess I would say there will be cooldown on Ambushs but in PvP only.

[Waffles.5632]

As of right now, there is simply way too much aoe and pet spam for Mirage to have only one dodge. Before Eod things were different, but now everything is bloated and saturated.

If visual clutter and saturation were at a 10 before EoD, it's at a 20 now with how much is going on, even in 3v3's it's ridiculous. Can't see anything going on.

 

 

[JazzXman.7018]

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

If I was to have a guess I would say there will be cooldown on Ambushs but in PvP only.

pls no, that would do the same as the one dodge nerf: it will delete the ability to work active and tactical with your ambushes. its like with the reflect on dodge trait with icd, super inconsitent and ususally  on icd when you would dodge for it on purpose (not to mention that dodging for reflect doesnt rly make sense as mechanic right from the start), means actively and tactically working with that trait is not possible most of the time bc of icd since it procs on dodge even when you dont need the reflect.

 

also since their problem mainly wasnt even the dmg spam on ambushes but more the strong defensive nature of mc, the icd on ambushes would not help with that. all mirage needs is an ambush mechanic on all weapons which forces pure offensive dodges to maximise mirages offensive and utlitybased impact, since that will effectively reduce mirages defensive dodge uptime without dooming amuhses/ih to be a more passive dmg multiplier, ambsuhes spammed for direct dmg as a side effect from defensive dodges.

 

but ye nonsense changes like that i expect too actually, me no like that, thats why me worried they make mirage just as clunky or even worse with 2 dodges than it is now with 1 😿

Edited September 20, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

pls no, that would do the same as the one dodge nerf: it will delete the ability to work active and tactical with your ambushes. its like with the reflect on dodge trait with icd, super inconsitent and ususally  on icd when you would dodge for it on purpose (not to mention that dodging for reflect doesnt rly make sense as mechanic right from the start), means actively and tactically working with that trait is not possible most of the time bc of icd since it procs on dodge even when you dont need the reflect.

 

also since their problem mainly wasnt even the dmg spam on ambushes but more the strong defensive nature of mc, the icd on ambushes would not help with that. all mirage needs is an ambush mechanic on all weapons which forces pure offensive dodges to maximise mirages offensive and utlitybased impact, since that will effectively reduce mirages defensive dodge uptime without dooming amuhses/ih to be a more passive dmg multiplier, ambsuhes spammed for direct dmg as a side effect from defensive dodges.

 

but ye nonsense changes like that i expect too actually, me no like that, thats why me worried they make mirage just as clunky or even worse with 2 dodges than it is now with 1 😿

I mean that is a better alternative than removing the ability to dodge CC.
When I played Mirage I used the dodge to spam Ambushes while taking no damage, so either we have survivability returned or we have the damage returned I don't see a world where we get both. If the Survivability comes back I will definitely play Mirage again.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I mean that is a better alternative than removing the ability to dodge CC.
When I played Mirage I used the dodge to spam Ambushes while taking no damage, so either we have survivability returned or we have the damage returned I don't see a world where we get both. If the Survivability comes back I will definitely play Mirage again.

The whole point of mirage is the ambush and mirage cloak mechanic, remove damage from ambush and nothing is left but a worse dodge.

It's unbelievable the most sane thing you wrote on this forum was a troll thread.