Remove Mech's Trade-off too

[Kuma.1503]

For the majority of you who think I've just spoken blasphemy, let me explain. 

Anet is going down the route of removing trade-offs from elite specs. Mechanist currently has the harshest trade-off in the game. 

 

• You give up toolbelts. Which includes 29 unique skills and your med kit heal skill. This hurts now more than ever that Engineer is bloated with more "oh heal" traits than ever before. 
• You give up an entire trainline just for the pet. Very little power in the Mechanist traitline is given to the engineer. 

I propose we give Mechanist back their core toolbelts. Now is a good time to do so since we are getting nerfed both in October and in November. 

The October patch will bring Power Mech down to 34k dps (below Virtuoso and Scourge) at the same time that virutoso is getting distortion. The November patch will presumably bring them down even further, perhaps down to or below Reaper's level of underperformance. 

While I'm certain many want to see Mech underperform as justice for it's meta dominance (I do not blame you), what this means is that we have room to add power back into their kit in a way that demands more mechanical input from the Engineer player. 

Giving Mechanist toolbelts does three things for the class

• Increases the skill floor. (Less passive gameplay)
• Gives more power to the player instead of the bot
• Band-Aid fixes the underwater issue. 

There are various ways this can be implimented

1. toolbelts appear instantly when the Mech starts its recall animation. The engineer will get to keep their core toolbelts until they cast [Crash Down] Engineer players will have to juggle when to have out their mech and when to recall it for core toolbelts. 
2. New F5 skill added. When Pressed, your toolbelts will swap between Mech toolbelts and Core toolbelts. These will automatically swap to core toolbelts when mech is dead or recalled. 

Option 1 keeps some level of trade-off for the Mechanist, but may not be the most practical for DPS builds, as removing the mech may undo whatever DPS advantage you get from casting core toolbelts. 

Option 2 removes the toolbelt trade-off entirely, but will also force DPS builds to utilize core toolbelts AND mech toolbelts to achieve competitive DPS after proper number's tuning, significantly increasing the skill cap. 

In both cases, this change will help to widen the gap between a good mechanist and an LI Mechanist. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Zaret.1450]

32 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

For the majority of you who think I've just spoken blasphemy, let me explain. 

Anet is going down the route of removing trade-offs from elite specs. Mechanist currently has the harshest trade-off in the game. 

 

• You give up toolbelts. Which includes 29 unique skills and your med kit heal skill. This hurts now more than ever that Engineer is bloated with more "oh heal" traits than ever before. 
• You give up an entire trainline just for the pet. Very little power in the Mechanist traitline is given to the engineer. 

I propose we give Mechanist back their core toolbelts. Now is a good time to do so since we are getting nerfed both in October and in November. 

The October patch will bring Power Mech down to 34k dps (below Virtuoso and Scourge) at the same time that virutoso is getting distortion. The November patch will presumably bring them down even further, perhaps down to or below Reaper's level of underperformance. 

While I'm certain many want to see Mech underperform as justice for it's meta dominance (I do not blame you), what this means is that we have room to add power back into their kit in a way that demands more mechanical input from the Engineer player. 

Giving Mechanist toolbelts does three things for the class

• Increases the skill floor. (Less passive gameplay)
• Gives more power to the player instead of the bot
• Band-Aid fixes the underwater issue. 

There are various ways this can be implimented

1. toolbelts appear instantly when the Mech starts its recall animation. The engineer will get to keep their core toolbelts until they cast [Crash Down] Engineer players will have to juggle when to have out their mech and when to recall it for core toolbelts. 
2. New F5 skill added. When Pressed, your toolbelts will swap between Mech toolbelts and Core toolbelts. These will automatically swap to core toolbelts when mech is dead or recalled. 

Option 1 keeps some level of trade-off for the Mechanist, but may not be the most practical for DPS builds, as removing the mech may undo whatever DPS advantage you get from casting core toolbelts. 

Option 2 removes the toolbelt trade-off entirely, but will also force DPS builds to utilize core toolbelts AND mech toolbelts to achieve competitive DPS after proper number's tuning, significantly increasing the skill cap. 

In both cases, this change will help to widen the gap between a good mechanist and an LI Mechanist. 

with all due respect, mec deserves to get its dmg nerfed, it is not fair that a build that relies half of its dmg to a pet and the other half to an auto attack does more dmg than day vindi, that needs to manage energy cd and evades while needing specific hitbox size, virtuoso isnt that difficult but it is much more complex han meca, etc etc.

I understand you dont like nerfs but maybe strengthening other things in engi can make up for the loss now and make mec get a good dmg with a normal-easy rotation.

34k, for the complexity on mec right now, id say is fair, there are more complex classes and elites that have almost the same dmg.

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, zaswer.5246 said:

with all due respect, mec deserves to get its dmg nerfed, it is not fair that a build that relies half of its dmg to a pet and the other half to an auto attack does more dmg than day vindi, that needs to manage energy cd and evades while needing specific hitbox size, virtuoso isnt that difficult but it is much more complex han meca, etc etc.

I understand you dont like nerfs but maybe strengthening other things in engi can make up for the loss now and make mec get a good dmg with a normal-easy rotation.

34k, for the complexity on mec right now, id say is fair, there are more complex classes and elites that have almost the same dmg.

With all due respect, perhaps you could take some time to understand what the other person is actually saying instead of attacking a strawman. 

Allow me to clarify. 

I am not and have not argued against Mech getting nerfed. I have simply made two observations. 

1. A significant chunk of power is being (deservedly) removed from Mech's kit
2. This creates room to add power in ways that require more active input from the player

What I have proposed will help to achieve the following

Quote

but maybe strengthening other things in engi can make up for the loss now and make mec get a good dmg with a normal-easy rotation.

Adding toolbelt management as we nerf the passive parts of Mech's kit increases the skill requirement of the Mechanist. If it does 34-35k DPS, but with a rotation with much higher intensity, this puts the skill requirement on par with or above other ranged classes like Deadeye, Virtuoso, and Soulbeast. While the overall output is still below those classes. 

Being slightly below other ranged classes at 34-35k DPS with a medium-high  intensity rotation is a reasonable outcome. They bring more raw damage (or utility in Scourges case). We bring versatility. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

This would only work if F5 where the skill to summon the golem and the toolbelt bar gets replaced by the golem bar once it is summoned.

[Lynx.9058]

Devs definitely need to not listen to the salty players here when it comes to balance.

[Mell.4873]

34 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

This would only work if F5 where the skill to summon the golem and the toolbelt bar gets replaced by the golem bar once it is summoned.

That is not a bad idea but would be utterly broken in PvP.

[Zaret.1450]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

With all due respect, perhaps you could take some time to understand what the other person is actually saying instead of attacking a strawman. 

Allow me to clarify. 

I am not and have not argued against Mech getting nerfed. I have simply made two observations. 

1. A significant chunk of power is being (deservedly) removed from Mech's kit
2. This creates room to add power in ways that require more active input from the player

What I have proposed will help to achieve the following

Adding toolbelt management as we nerf the passive parts of Mech's kit increases the skill requirement of the Mechanist. If it does 34-35k DPS, but with a rotation with much higher intensity, this puts the skill requirement on par with or above other ranged classes like Deadeye, Virtuoso, and Soulbeast. While the overall output is still below those classes. 

Being slightly below other ranged classes at 34-35k DPS with a medium-high  intensity rotation is a reasonable outcome. They bring more raw damage (or utility in Scourges case). We bring versatility. 

where did i attack?

[Kuma.1503]

9 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

where did i attack?

"Attacking a strawman" is a figure of speech. In this context it means "debunking an argument that was never made". 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[wasss.1208]

5 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

where did i attack?

 

2 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

with all due respect, mec deserves to get its dmg nerfed

This shows, that you did not read what the original post is about. It is about giving the mechanist an option to play a harder build, with decent damage, along with the laid back, nerfed, easy version.

 

2 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

I understand you dont like nerfs

Here you are implying, that the poster dislikes the nerfs, while they never said, that they are unjustified/bad move/shouldn't happen...

[Zaret.1450]

12 minutes ago, wasss.1208 said:

 

This shows, that you did not read what the original post is about. It is about giving the mechanist an option to play a harder build, with decent damage, along with the laid back, nerfed, easy version.

 

Here you are implying, that the poster dislikes the nerfs, while they never said, that they are unjustified/bad move/shouldn't happen...

ok my bad but still it wasnt an attack

[itspomf.9523]

I wasn't going to log in and say anything, but now I have to ask:

Why do we keep insisting on using completely synthetic (and arbitrarily inflated) "benchmark" numbers as a basis for balance when even ANet themselves have realized how poorly conceived that notion is?

[Ashen.2907]

I like the idea of returning the tool belt but only if, perhaps, the pet had its damage reduced to be comparable to a ranger's brown bear and had the mech function skills removed. At that point the mechanist would have a full range of F skills, plus a pet.

[Abyssisis.3971]

I’ll agree to this if jadebots were brought down to ranger pet levels, ie made pretty fking useless.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

56 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

That is not a bad idea but would be utterly broken in PvP.

Then make the mech easier to kill. It's hard to kill now because once it dies the Mechanist has nothing to work with.

[Mell.4873]

Just now, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Then make the mech easier to kill. It's hard to kill now because once it dies the Mechanist has nothing to work with.

I don't think that's a good idea otherwise we end up with the Ranger problem all over again.

[Zyreva.1078]

Why does mech need to be able to fullfill every single role? I mean it is a top tier boon support and heal spec with a solid condi dps option, no? Maybe it would make more sense for holo to be the power dps spec for engi, after all it can't fit any other role ...

Or should we start asking for power dps firebrand too? Or dps druid?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I don't think that's a good idea otherwise we end up with the Ranger problem all over again.

I didn't say that easy, just easier.

[Kuma.1503]

10 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Why does mech need to be able to fullfill every single role? I mean it is a top tier boon support and heal spec with a solid condi dps option, no? Maybe it would make more sense for holo to be the power dps spec for engi, after all it can't fit any other role ...

Or should we start asking for power dps firebrand too? Or dps druid?

I wouldn't be opposed to Mech being a condi/support spec without the power traitline. (Replace with traits that empower that playstyle instead. 

I've asked for something similar in the past. Condi mech is generally harder to play than power as well. 

[Lynx.9058]

Speaking as a mechanist main... I don't want toolbelt skills back, tbh.  I get why so many people want them, as it's been a key part of engineers forever now, but mechanist is supposed to have a different playstyle.

 

There are really only two things I want changed:

1. Mech usable underwater.

2. Weapon swapping in combat reinstated, either for mechanist or engineers in general.

[TexZero.7910]

6 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

For the majority of you who think I've just spoken blasphemy, let me explain. 

Anet is going down the route of removing trade-offs from elite specs. Mechanist currently has the harshest trade-off in the game.

Hey, don't forget to give us an underwater Mech.

[the krytan assassin.9235]

Anet made a clear design philosophy for mechanist: low intensity builds with decent healing/Alacrity/damage output due to a powerful pet. Reverting the toolbelt mechanic to make the Espec more difficult again would be kinda counterproductive for this design philosophy. 

Just let mechanist fulfill its role of alac support and LI dps build. Buff holo dmge instead to promote it as the endgame high risk/reward dps spec. This way all Especs serve a purpose in PvE. 

Aslong as there is no initiative to play holo over mech, either holo deserves a dps boost or mechanist needs a dps nerf. Since most mechanists are topping the dps boss encounters right now, the most logical step would be to start with nerfing down the mechanist until its no longer the dps meta. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by the krytan assassin.9235

[Atmaweapon.7345]

Mechanists aren't topping benchmarks, they're just really high for a low intensity build. Nerfing Mech without bumping up Holo to 38-40k just nerfs Engis overall position in theoretical output compared to other professions.

[oscuro.9720]

I’m not going to speak on skill floor/balance/what trade offs are/etc. I’m going to touch on something entirely different, and the reason I never see this happening;

They would have to make toolbelt skills for signets.

I simply do not see that happening, unless they somehow already exist. Unless you want signets to simply not have a toolbelt slot? Which would be shoddy design and imo should not be implemented if that is the case. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Kuma.1503]

42 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I’m not going to speak on skill floor/balance/what trade offs are/etc. I’m going to touch on something entirely different, and the reason I never see this happening;

They would have to make toolbelt skills for signets.

I simply do not see that happening, unless they somehow already exist. Unless you want signets to simply not have a toolbelt slot? Which would be shoddy design and imo should not be implemented if that is the case. 

Fair point, but I can already think of one. Back in beta the mech had a Jade Siphon attack. That can come back as one of them. 

As for the rest, there are jade bots in cantha that they can rip some abilities from. 

[soul.9651]

Well this sounds good, but they should do that not only for mech, all Li builds should have wider skill gap if you wanna do more damage in this game. 

Also people shouldnt exaggerate, nerfing 3.7k from a current pmech wont change much how it feels to play, especially if its OW content or story for some people. However if they are planning more nerfs than this then it will be a different story for that.

Edited September 20, 2022 by soul.9651