Are Core builds supposed to just be for levelling?

[SponTen.1267]

I'm really enjoying all the dev attention that balance is getting now. It's also great to see older content, like Dungeons, get very minor updates over time to keep them somewhat relevant. Kudos to ANet for this; it's really appreciated!

One thing that's bugging me though, is that with a lot of the changes, it seems that the reasons to play Core builds in PvE are becoming fewer and fewer. A good example of this is Ranger; it used to be that, if you wanted to just play a simple Ranger with a couple pets, you'd play Core. Druid had hampered pets, and Soulbeast only got one, but they both got other bonuses that made up for it, like healing and Glyphs, and huge damage and Stances, respectively. I'm not sure about Untamed here, as I haven't played it yet, but it looks like it comes with extra complexity due to the Unleash mechanic.

Now that Druid pets don't get hampered and Soulbeasts can swap pets in combat, it seems that the only benefit of Core is having access to a third non-Elite spec... though due to most Core specs being much less powerful than Elites, this is kinda pointless 99% of the time.

Cmc and Roy did say they wanted to remove a lot of the downsides of Elites, which I completely understand, as a lot of players feel bad about losing something when they pick an Elite. But if this continues, what will be the point of Core builds? Are they supposed to be just for levelling?

My concern here is that it reduces options. The third spec will always be devoted to an Elite, so there will be fewer options for different builds. What if you just don't want to have the Berserker Rage mechanics, or the Soulbeast Beastmode, or the Tempest Overloads, and instead prefer to keep things a bit simpler? I'm sure some will say "Well, you don't have to use them" or "Just play Core then", and that's mostly true; but players will be willingly giving up a lot of power, which also feels bad, and may get booted from groups due to other players thinking you're griefing.

 

Anyway, what do you guys think? I know I'm probably in the minority with wanting to retain Core builds that are at least somewhat on-par with Elites. Perhaps Core specs could be buffed a tiny bit (and some Elites toned down just slightly if they become too powerful with these Core buffs)? Or the third spec slot could always be your "Elite" slot, so if you slot a Core spec in there it gets boosted somehow? For example, I'd love to play a Core Ele that was able to provide Alacrity by Attunement swapping or blasting combo fields quickly, instead of being forced into Tempest Overloads.

This kind of change could be a great way for us to have a "4th Elite" til the next expansion is released. Other than the dev time, is there any real downside to this?

[eXruina.4956]

no, not even for leveling 😶 we have Tomes of Experience for that. 🤣

 

welcome to gw2 😁👌

[Sahne.6950]

51 minutes ago, SponTen.1267 said:

Anyway, what do you guys think?

I think that its hard buffing core builds without buffing especs.

Becaus any trait that you buff in a core traitline... can also be used by elitespecs.

 

Like you already mentioned, it has to be done with stuff like : "When not equipping a elitespecialisation, you get X".

But then you have to ask yourself..... are they relly gonna put in developmenttime and most notably money.... to make f2p viable.....   i mean....  selling xpacs.... keeps their lights on....  Thats just the way it is unfortunately.

[SponTen.1267]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

But then you have to ask yourself..... are they relly gonna put in developmenttime and most notably money.... to make f2p viable.....   i mean....  selling xpacs.... keeps their lights on....  Thats just the way it is unfortunately.

How many players wouldn't buy the Expansions if Core Specs were comparable to Elites though?? I feel like this number would be very, very low.

"Remastering" old content is a great way to get players back into the game. We see this with the million remasters coming out for other games. It'd wouldn't just be good for build diversity; it'd be good for nostalgia too. Not to mention that it'd give new players a better experience as they transition into Expansion content, as the difficulty curve would be a lot smoother. And GW2 is known for its horizontal progression anyway, so it makes sense in that context.

It just seems like ANet is half doing this already, with all the Core weapon and skill buffs they've done recently, which have been very well-received. Why not continue it?

[Sahne.6950]

4 minutes ago, SponTen.1267 said:

How many players wouldn't buy the Expansions if Core Specs were comparable to Elites though?? I feel like this number would be very, very low.

coming from a competetive perspective:   If the newer specs didnt outperform the older ones, there would be very little reason to buy EoD. Atleast if you primarly pvp/wvw.

I myself only have the expansions, because i cant be competetive with only core, altho my favorite build is core, i just cant perform on the same level i can with the E-specs.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Dayra.7405]

2 out of 3 traits will always be coreand around the same for support skill

You are never just elite, but I also don‘t see a reason, why core should be better than elite, would not really be elite in that case 😀

So yes being able to choosecan elite improved you, and at least for PvE I find this adequate as expansions are harder than core.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Dayra.7405

[kharmin.7683]

This really depends on what content you choose to play.  As a very casual OWPvE player, and a ranger main, I enjoy my core ranger a lot.

[Hashberry.4510]

I keep a core version of each toon, they are still a lot of fun.

[Kuma.1503]

Core specs see a lot more play in PvP/WvW. 

In PvE, there really isn't much incentive to play them, even now with trade-offs intact. 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

You're not the minority.  Looking at this from a sky-high view, the removal of tradeoffs for elite specs is a large amount of power creep and feature creep.

[Jokubas.4265]

18 hours ago, SponTen.1267 said:

How many players wouldn't buy the Expansions if Core Specs were comparable to Elites though?? I feel like this number would be very, very low.

Elite Specializations aren't just about power though. A major gimmick of the Elite Specializations are offering new playstyles for the Profession. In general I've learned to be excited about the new Elite Specs for Professions I don't play rather than the ones I do, because I tend to already be happy with the ones I do and don't want a major shake up.

[SponTen.1267]

On 9/21/2022 at 10:14 PM, Sahne.6950 said:

coming from a competetive perspective:   If the newer specs didnt outperform the older ones, there would be very little reason to buy EoD. Atleast if you primarly pvp/wvw.

I myself only have the expansions, because i cant be competetive with only core, altho my favorite build is core, i just cant perform on the same level i can with the E-specs.

On 9/21/2022 at 10:32 PM, Dayra.7405 said:

2 out of 3 traits will always be coreand around the same for support skill

You are never just elite, but I also don‘t see a reason, why core should be better than elite, would not really be elite in that case 😀

So yes being able to choosecan elite improved you, and at least for PvE I find this adequate as expansions are harder than core.

I'm not asking for Core to be 100% comparable or better than Elites. I'm just wondering if ANet is intentionally relegating Core to "underdog" status in PvE. It's a bit odd, because there are some Core builds that have their own unique mechanics that their Elites don't have, like Necromancer. It would feel weird, at least to me, if ANet just went and slapped Death Shroud onto the Necro Elites; why is this kind of thing being done for some classes, but not others?

 

On 9/21/2022 at 10:44 PM, kharmin.7683 said:

This really depends on what content you choose to play.  As a very casual OWPvE player, and a ranger main, I enjoy my core ranger a lot.

21 hours ago, Hashberry.4510 said:

I keep a core version of each toon, they are still a lot of fun.

I enjoy playing Core as well. It'd just be really great to retain them as an option without being kitten because the 3rd spec will almost always be worse than the Elite spec + extra skills.

 

21 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Core specs see a lot more play in PvP/WvW. 

In PvE, there really isn't much incentive to play them, even now with trade-offs intact. 

And that's a bit sad, isn't it? There's something nice about their simplicity, and they also sometimes have mechanics that their Elites don't, like Necro's Death Shroud.

 

5 hours ago, Jokubas.4265 said:

Elite Specializations aren't just about power though. A major gimmick of the Elite Specializations are offering new playstyles for the Profession. In general I've learned to be excited about the new Elite Specs for Professions I don't play rather than the ones I do, because I tend to already be happy with the ones I do and don't want a major shake up.

Same here! But I also get excited for Core specs too. Sometimes I'm playing my Tempest and I just... don't feel like using Overloads, or switching to Dual Attunements, or making use of a Jade Sphere. Sometimes I just want the same build that I'm running, but with Soothing Mist instead, for a bit of support.

And I do play them anyway; they're not unplayable. I'm playing around with a Staff Ele right now, switching between Fire/Water/Arcane and Fire/Water/Air, and it's a breath of fresh air (heh).

I'm just asking if ANet is aware that most Core specs are much less powerful than Elites, and if this is intentional and something they're happy with. It'd be really cool to see Core builds have their place as a "4th Elite", as well as more Core skills (eg. Conjures) getting some tuning.

[Hashberry.4510]

End game play is obsessed with dps; core builds are often two dps lines plus a third support. Especs give another dps line in most cases so yay we pick all 3. 

[Jski.6180]

I would love to see core classes buffed its just every time you buff core utility you also buff elite spec utility. The trick would be to make "core only" effects that you can buff.

Yes core needs to be viable for all points of the game there is no good reason not to be.

[Cait Sith.4650]

I'd rather get a Core Rework and Balance and Animation bug fixes for the existing Elite Specializations on the next expansion, than new ones.

It will be more beneficial for the game to refine and maximize the potential of what's already been done since release, than keep piling up new Elite Specializations and driving the Balance Team even further against a wall in terms of design and workload.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Cait Sith.4650

[wasss.1208]

36 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

I would love to see core classes buffed its just every time you buff core utility you also buff elite spec utility. The trick would be to make "core only" effects that you can buff.

Or you spread out useful traits across 3 traitlines, or just make a third core line to be on par, with an elite, so picking up the elite line actually comes with an opportunity cost. Look at Core Engineer in PvE now. Elit specs give around the same amount of damage, as the Tools traitline, so Core ended up doing around the same amount, as the elites.

[KeoLegend.5132]

YES

[Miannei.5072]

I made a core ele build that on golem does 29 k. Have tried it in a ankla cm. Managed 21 k first phase (sadly i died in second phase so no good reading on how well it perform full fight). Will be testing it a bit more this weekend.

 

It seems to have acceptable viability, not the best but if you fore once want to play core for a boss or two i think it's fine

[Mell.4873]

I think going forward the answer is YES. Core is a taste of what the Elite Specialization will be.

In the past you could have said for example on Ranger, Druid is for Support, Soulbeast was for DPS, Core was for surviving(PvP). Now Untamed came along and is just a better Core Ranger at not dying.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Mell.4873

[PolarBear.3961]

For me yes 😅. It just feels wrong for me to play core when i have elites unlocked 🤪.

[Zaret.1450]

i havent read everything but, as an answer, id say more or less.

Core builds are inherently diferent from elites, core specs have central points and dont usually stray from that point, ranger for example in nature magic is almost completely centered around suport, with ofensive and deffensive options being very minor, oposite to that there are elite specs, wich, even centered around a point, have much more versatility, lets say herald now, it has a more healer like aproach traits, some selfish traits and some boon oriented traits.

This is important because specs are limited to 3, and cores are just 5, if i take rev again a core rev suport should go salvation for healing, invo for the boon oriented traits in there and then maybe retribution or even corruption, while a herald can go salvation, herald with all suport traits, and then maybe invo or another spec to get versatility, in the core the only real suport dedicated spec would be salvation while in herald you have 2 dedicated specs traited for suport, thus it will probably be much better at its work.

on the other side you could say cores are more of a celestial build, an all rounder that can work well in certain scenarios if you do your job right.

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I don't see how Core Ranger is unplayable in any game mode--or even really weaker for that matter. 

This is because most of the things that make all ranger builds work are core related anyway; practically everything outside of outliers like Fervent Force making Untamed accepted into endgame PvE or Doylak Stance making Soulbeast a good roamer.  

You can still build boon bunkers, have alac or build quite a lot of might stacking / power on core only.  Sure, you may lose alternate playstyle (merging/unleash/etc.) or certain roles (like Druid would be better support than Core), but that's just how the game works.  

It's also an odd topic to make when the next balance patch fixes a lot of your concerns and specifically addresses core lines on at least Warrior and Ranger.  

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

Core being equivalent just DOESN'T work with the design of the game as it stands now. Anet never should have promised "Elites are a sidegrade" because outside of some very specific instances in PvE and a handful of instances in PvP/WvW, Elites have ALWAYS been better. The design of "take 1 traitline that has a very specific purpose and you get access to a bunch of new kitten" will just always make core specs inferior. Especs have access to literally everything core professions do, minus (some) core profession skills, so any buff to core that isn't a buff to a core profession skill that is exclusive to the core profession is also a buff to the especs.

It would be incredibly hard for them to balance this in PvE and quite frankly they should NOT do this as it will throw the balance of especs off a ton while they try to "get it right" (lol, they won't, ever). I'd rather they balance the 27 especs well and leave core as the meat and potatoes of the class that keeps the espec together

Edited September 24, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[wasss.1208]

On 9/24/2022 at 9:13 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

It would be incredibly hard for them to balance this in PvE

I disagree. With clever designing, and good balancing, it can be easily done, especially in PvE, where you specialize your build to excel in one thing, like DPS. And Core Engineer is a prime example, that it can be done, fairly easily. They buffed some numbers on Tools, that only core picks up atm, they buffed Throw Mine, that core gets double of, because they pick up Gadgeteer, so they double dip the buff. And now, core deals similar damage to the elites, while having a different rotation.
 

 

On 9/24/2022 at 9:13 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Especs have access to literally everything core professions do, minus (some) core profession skills

Especs has access to only 2 traitlines, at the same time. If you look at Core Guardian vs. Firebrand in PvP, you can see, that despite Firebrand having access to everything, simple numerical nerfs made Firebrand worse, than a third core line.


Balancing core, while having elites in the game is not an impossible task, and the game would get more diverse, if they decided to do it. It would let people have more options, playstyles, and free to play, or core players wouldn't feel like a second class citizen.

 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

6 hours ago, wasss.1208 said:

I disagree. With clever designing, and good balancing, it can be easily done
 

Sure, but this is something Anet has NEVER excelled at in 10 years. Not sure why we should just assume they'll get better at it simply because some want Core to be equivalent to especs. Let's be realistic and realize that this is TOO MUCH of a load for them to balance.
 

6 hours ago, wasss.1208 said:

And Core Engineer is a prime example, that it can be done, fairly easily. They buffed some numbers on Tools, that only core picks up atm, they buffed Throw Mine, that core gets double of, because they pick up Gadgeteer, so they double dip the buff. And now, core deals similar damage to the elites, while having a different rotation.

Great, that might work for Core Engineer (like I said previously there are some very rare exceptions in PvE, like old Virtues Guard), but you have to realize this wouldn't work for all classes at least not with major reworks. Let's take Rev for example. How do you expect a power or condi build on rev to outcompete Renegade for condi or Vindicator for power? The fact that both specializations offer not only BIG dps increases, but also offer additional weapons that are necessary to perform its top dps in those roles immediately makes them superior to core.

Let's breakdown a power rev for example. Currently power rev is taking Devastation, Invocation, Vindicator (or Herald, but Vindicator is higher potential dps). Ignoring "All Damage" (it's not super relevant for Power obviously) the specializations offer damage as follows:

Devastation offers 250 power and a rough variable 31.5% - 34% strike damage modifier across an entire fight (averaging unsuspecting strikes + swift termination).
Invocation offers 20% in modifier and 25% extra crit chance. The crit chance makes this mandatory for power builds
Vindicator offers 25% in modifiers and 240 power, but also grants access to GS

So now looking at Core alternatives for a 3 spec Core power build:
Salvation offers no modifiers or anything and is a healing traitline. Makes no sense to buff here
Corruption offers no modifiers for strike damage and is a condi traitline. Makes no sense to buff here
Retribution offers 20% damage modifiers, so is the natural 3rd choice for a power core build. However, this is "the tanky" traitline, so before even looking at the ramifications of buffing it, does it really even make sense for it to compete with the full dps traitlines? I'd say no.

Let's hypothetically buff Retribution to compete with Devastation and be better in raw damage buffs than Vindicator.
Hypothetical Retribution - 40% damage modifier
Okay so now Retribution looks better than Vindicator on paper, minus greatsword. However, does that extra damage modifier outpace GS or make S/S equivalent or near equal? No, Vindicator will still be better in this situation due to GS. Vindicator is also a bad example overall, since its utilities are not mandatory in its build for top dps (Shiro/Jalis is near equivalent for example), unlike most e-specs throughout the game.

This is only for power btw. If we want to make Core Condi on Rev ALSO viable then we'd have to make all of Retribution's buffs "All Damage" buffs as well or buff Devastation instead. However, tweaking Devastation obviously has an affect on power builds, so Retribution would have to be the target of those condi buffs as well. This would effectively mean we'd have to make Retribution a "super traitline" (offering good defense AND huge % All Damage) in order to make this work. 40% is an absurd modifier for a traitline that is supposed to be focused around defense/tankiness. We should avoid the creation of "Super Traitlines" as much as possible.

Not to mention that if we buff Retribution enough it suddenly becomes mandatory for Vindicator or Renegade as well. Walking the fine line of "it's equivalent to Devastation/Invocation/Corruption so I don't need to take it in my build" is SO hard. Just look at the history of Devastation and Invocation cRen. There will always be a preference for one traitline over the other at the end of the day.

So if buffing a 3rd traitline to compete isn't enough, can we buff core weapons? No, it's a buff for the especs as well in most cases. Can we buff core utilities? No, it's a buff for the especs as well in most cases. Can we buff core profession skills? Yes, but only if it's exclusive to the core side of the profession (not all professions have this and most don't have good ones, Rev's Ancient Echo for example is fairly bad and doesn't really offer anything worthwhile for a dps build). Rev btw is one of the easier examples to work with in this scenario since its traitlines and utilities are so focused, but other professions get wayyy more dicey once you start factoring in all of these things.

Tl;Dr - Buffing a 3rd core traitline will inevitably create a "super traitline" (bad) and dilute the purpose of traitlines themselves (having a focus on power/condi/utility/defense/support/healing) resulting in bad balance to make core "near equivalent" with Elites. Elites will still be better anyway due to the inherent nature of them unless they're nerfed directly, but that would be unfun and just promote less interesting builds with less variety (core). Any buff to core traitlines is also a buff to especs past a certain point and any buff to core weapons/utils/profession skills that especs have access to is also a buff to those especs. Result = crazy hard to balance balance that Anet isn't capable of

**Worth noting the modifiers listed are (generally) multiplicative, so the math here isn't exact or fully correct, but it doesn't need to be in this hypothetical scenario to make my point anyway
 

6 hours ago, wasss.1208 said:

Especs has access to only 2 traitlines, at the same time. If you look at Core Guardian vs. Firebrand in PvP, you can see, that despite Firebrand having access to everything, simple numerical nerfs made Firebrand worse, than a third core line.

Balancing core, while having elites in the game is not an impossible task, and the game would get more diverse, if they decided to do it. It would let people have more options, playstyles, and free to play, or core players wouldn't feel like a second class citizen.

As I mentioned in my first post PvP/WvW is an exception in far more cases than pve due to the nature of the gamemode. When the purpose of the mode is to fight other players, sometimes it's okay to slot that 3rd traitline focused on defense or something else instead of the espec traitline.

Also I don't care about f2p or core players feeling like second class citizens that's not a valid concern for me. The f2p version is not the complete game and should NOT be balanced around. The expansions are cheap AF compared to most games nowadays; people can find an extra $30 dollars in their budget (or even $15 on sale) to buy an expansion, just saying.

Edited September 25, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054