How much timer is usually left on DE completion?

[Firebeard.1746]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

omg, "lol" all you want, checked back the screenshots, it was not 10 players, I was wrong. at the first crystal phase (18:40 until Void overwhelms Soo-Won), the group consisted of 7 people. At the end it was random clump of random people just playing the meta event, nobody cared or had time to count up 40+ (which was what the squad was at the end) and somehow care about your specific squad composition where everyone -besides commie- sat in the first subgroup 🤦‍♂️

My point is boon sharing can still happen without organized subs, hell i get almost full boons in lots of metas all the time. I'm saying boons can still happen in this environment. 

 

There are even conditions where boons spill outside your sub if you're in subs. I'm not sure how you're proving you don't have boon coverage. That's what i think is ridiculous about your post but okay. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Firebeard.1746]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Any squad is raid squad then since you can invite random people and some of them can happen to share perfect boons you want them to share. 🤦‍♂️

 

Well my best success is with a raid comp so il stick with that. I'm glad eu players are better than na players and need less organization. My experience has been different. Oversharing can happen and that's a loss.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Firebeard.1746]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And again, players playing better builds having better success rate is not some huge mystery and nobody ever had any dobuts about it. Still not a raid comp, just because people use the boons

Okay given my de runs have healers too, just like a raid would, can you clarify which other roles are so universal in raids that aren't in DE?

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Okay given my de runs have healers too, just like a raid would, can you clarify which other roles are so universal in raids that aren't in DE?

It doesn't matter what your one de run had, it matters how most squads successfully complete it.

(still skipped the previous post, this time even skipped the part when I tell you about you previously skipping it, so... intentional dodge is intentional)

Edited September 29, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

6 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It doesn't matter what your one de run had, it matters how most squads successfully complete it.

(still skipped the previous post, this time even skipped the part when I tell you about you previously skipping it, so... intentional dodge is intentional)

Nice deflection. Because you know no other roles are universal across all raids. Maybe eu players are good enough without that level of organization, but given i literally stepped into no less than 10 failed groups with various level of organization, i wouldn't take that chance in NA. If you don't feel it's required based on your experience, i believe you. But i believe otherwise based on mine.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

10 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Nice deflection. Because you know no other roles are universal across all raids. Maybe eu players are good enough without that level of organization, but given i literally stepped into no less than 10 failed groups with various level of organization, i wouldn't take that chance in NA. If you don't feel it's required based on your experience, i believe you. But i believe otherwise based on mine.

No deflection here. It wasa already explained what raid comp constitutes of on the previous page, not just by me.

You stepped into those squads when? 6 months ago? But hey, actually keep stacking those healers, whatever you want -just stop repeating there's any raid comp needed here when it's far from it.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[ArchonWing.9480]

28 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Okay given my de runs have healers too, just like a raid would, can you clarify which other roles are so universal in raids that aren't in DE?

Since when are healers raid specific? Pretty much anything that has more than 3 people can benefit from a healer.

Edited September 29, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Ashantara.8731]

On 9/28/2022 at 6:49 PM, Debesyla.7102 said:

Over the past ~10 runs I had this month the median was ~8min left. Yes, it is pretty easy nowaday, even with a random PUG.

Same experience here. 7+ minutes, usually, and that's not even within the high-end playerbase (I'm certain a full squad of Raid/Strike CM players would add several spare minutes to the timer).

I remember, in the first couple of weeks, how incredibly proud we used to be in PUGs when we had that much time left. 😄

[Firebeard.1746]

21 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You stepped into those squads when? 6 months ago? But hey, actually keep stacking those healers, whatever you want -just stop repeating there's any raid comp needed here when it's far from it.

I did most of them when it first release, but I think I've done over half since the nerfs. I tried at least once after each nerf. I was actually trying to avoid being in a fully organized squad like the plague because imo, OW should be about random player interaction, so when you have to fully organize a group of 50 players to open their own instance and pass it reliably, it's not really OW content in my book. I was shocked when i saw how much easier it is with higher DPS and how hard you're punished for not having high DPS, it's a bullet hell snowball. And most clears from this thread seem to be comfortable ones, there are some that are close, but it looks like DPS is king for the most part. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

3 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I did most of them when it first release, but I think I've done over half since the nerfs

So as thought. Nerfs are one thing, increase in dps (sometimes pretty "passive increase") for lower performance dps specs semi-recently is another thing. You have no direct, smooth comparison between the changes, you have mostly two points: shortly after release and now (apparently with sample of one).

Edited September 29, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

So as thought. Nerfs are one thing, increase in dps (sometimes pretty "passive increase") for lower performance dps specs semi-recently is another thing. You have no direct, smooth comparison between the changes, you have mostly two points: shortly after release and now (sample: one).

No I've done a few recently. At least 3 in that last month I believe. So that includes changes. One of those was semi-organized. But sure, assume whatever you want. 

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

boon sharing can still happen without organized subs

And without organized subgroups it is not a raid comp. 

[Silent.6137]

10 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's practically what is nowadays being done with half of the raid encounters. You make sure of Alac and Quick, because those matter. You don't bother with might and fury, because in the nowadays meta those are practically a given. Then you feel all remaining slots with dps. Sub organization complete. The only difference is the heals, because DE doesn't need those.

Only in case a raid encounter needs a specific dedicated role (like kiter) a bit more organization is needed.

No argument there. It can be anything that the specific encounter requires. If the group is lacking in provider, then it no longer can qualify as a Full Raid Compositions. And I'm not refering to how much uptime. If you need 2 Quick and only have 1, then you're not at FRC. That's my whole point of saying statements by a couple of individuals were misleading.

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

You clearly don't understand what i'm saying either. You can't include every role as part of frc if it's not consistent. If HK and tank are part of FRC then feel free to being them on your next CA run. If you're splitting hairs on roles, de has roles too, like greens. The only consistent part of raid comp is boons and heals (and i've seen heals on DE too). I've said and clarified it before and if you don't believe me, by all means justify bringing and HK to every encounter to your squad because you got in a tiff with some guy on the forums.

 

Your comments on randomly filling without boon roles when you only have half of what you wanted threw me of, you're not clearly communicating your point. It sounded like you were implying you could get away with only half the boons on DE. To me, it felt like you were setting up a contrast between how picky you could be in DE vs other content. 

It really doesn't matter what boons you get from those not in your group. And it matters not if certain roles are not present if they're not needed. You kept arguing about some issue that is not pertinent.

The only criteria for a group to have FULL Raid compositions:

1. Providers of boons needed for the event. If DE just needs Alac and Quick, then that's all it needs. Same as the requirements for Raids. Don't need HK, then no HK. Failures for any events are always a possiblity but that does not negate the definition.
2. Each subgroup should be self-sustained. Has players in each sub to provide the boons needed.

These two conditions has to be met to qualify as FRC. Getting residual boons from external sources do not qualify the subs as FRC compliant since the subs has no one to provide them. Successes or failures do not determine whether that term is applicable or not. Raids can fail. DE Metas can fail. If they satisfy the conditions, then they will still have FRC, regardless.

DE Metas only require Alac and Quick. Any other boons are welcomed but irrelevant. In some cases, DE Metas do have all the necessary providers, so you can call them FRC. But more often than not, less than 3/4 or even 1/2 of the subs will be lacking one or both of the boon providers. So most squads will not have FULL RC. Splitting hairs will be me saying something like there's only 9 Quick and 10 Alac so they don't qualify.

You do not need a FRC squad to win. Most squads there do not have the necessary components to be called that. Thus, calling squads that win as having FRC is misleading.

I really don't know how much clearer I can make it so will stop this debate chain here. Welcome to discuss any other points you may have.

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

DE Metas only require Alac and Quick. Any other boons are welcomed but irrelevant.

The other boons usually come from just having these two. There is no "might/fury" button on my raid disc. It almost sounded like you agreed with me in the "two criteria " portion of this quoted portion of the post but feels like  a backtrack. And if you're going to stick to your guns full boons + some healers isn't frc, i want you to tell me which other roles are global to all raids. 

 

You guys aren't the only ones to say frc isn't required, but given my experience experimenting with different levels or organization, in my personal experience is it is. I tried no less than 10 attempts most after the nerfs and still failed with varying levels of organization.  I respect your opinions and experience, but people who have experienced what I have will agree with me and play in that manner. In fact i've talked to content creators who basically say they run in their own groups doing what i advocate: having full boons. 

 

And i don't have to respond to every post of people that disagree with me, but i'm sure the many people who have failed the meta and never looked back might come here and agree with me if they took the effort to try with a full raid comp. I'm glad your less organized groups seem to succeed often enough you don't feel scared of wasting over an hour of play time when doing the DE meta. That's not my personal experience. And given how it feels like mechanics stack up over time, based on my failures,  skipping through the best possible dps sounds like the best strat and it's what i'll stick to and advocate for anyone who doesn't have an hour and a half to throw away.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

30 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I wasn't expecting Anet to reward that kind of play that much when it's an open world event for the reasons stated above.

I have 0 issues with players using rather obvious game mechanics -like boon usage in group encounters- to gain advantage since that's exactly the reason those mechanics are in the game. It's not some limited "use it here, never touch it somewhere else" type of feature and I don't see any reason for it to work otherwise. I fail to see why anyone wouldn't want "that kind of play"(?) rewarded. I also find the wording "that kind of play" weird when it's meant to describe boon usage in an mmorpg.

The idea of players going for somewhat more organized squads to increase their odds of success was already pretty widely encouraged on the forum and ingame shortly after the release, at least by the players that understood the significance/role of boons in group content, especially where dps can be lacking since obviously nobody checks "who runs what build". It's equally true in this meta as it is anywhere else, where the content isn't straght up "faceroll". Seems to me like a right direction of the game encouraging players to understand and use its mechanics.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I have 0 issues with players using rather obvious game mechanics -like boon usage in group encounters- to gain advantage since that's exactly the reason those mechanics are in the game. It's not some limited "use it here, never touch it somewhere else" type of feature and I don't see any reason for it to work otherwise. I fail to see why anyone wouldn't want "that kind of play"(?) rewarded. I also find the wording "that kind of play" weird when it's meant to describe boon usage in an mmorpg.

The idea of players going for somewhat more organized squads to increase their odds of success was already pretty widely encouraged on the forum and ingame shortly after the release, at least by the players that understood the significance/role of boons in group content, especially where dps can be lacking since obviously nobody checks "who runs what build". It's equally true in this meta as it is anywhere else, where the content isn't straght up "faceroll". Seems to me like a right direction of the game encouraging players to understand and use its mechanics.

I'd like for the reward for being more organized to come from the fact you did organize over straight failing in the OW if you don't. Kindof how EU fast farming numbers come from optimal play, maybe the best g/h would come from organizing, but without all the failing if you don't, I feel DE would have been better accepted if this was the case and it would preserve the OW as a learning playground, but if you're serious the guides would show you it's best to organize. I felt DE got toxic at times as it is. 

In instanced content I've made peace with the meta even if I feel it can be more burdensome than a traditional trinity, and totally agree. 

You say it's obvious, but it's less obvious to most players, which is why there's entire guides and videos on it and content creators talk about how the game does'nt do a good job of teaching it. Most players, if they're watching boons, are normally watching their own builds and using it for their own power. 

I respect your opinion, ultimately the devs will do their thing. 
 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I'd like for the reward for being more organized to come from the fact you did organize over straight failing in the OW if you don't.

Kindof how EU fast farming numbers come from optimal play, maybe the best g/h would come from organizing, but without all the failing if you don't, I feel DE would have been better accepted if this was the case and it would preserve the OW as a learning playground, but if you're serious the guides would show you it's best to organize. I felt DE got toxic at times as it is. 

In instanced content I've made peace with the meta even if I feel it can be more burdensome than a traditional trinity, and totally agree. 

You say it's obvious, but it's less obvious to most players, which is why there's entire guides and videos on it and content creators talk about how the game does'nt do a good job of teaching it. Most players, if they're watching boons, are normally watching their own builds and using it for their own power. 

I respect your opinion, ultimately the devs will do their thing. 

As it was already mentioned before, organizing is not needed, it's not a choice between "you either organize or you fail", so lets not try to paint it like that. It's a way to increase the probability of success, not and inherent part of success.

It probably should be obvious to players paying attention to skills and traits they have access to. In case it wasn't, as already mentioned before, it was being explained in the DE complaint thread over and over again to which the responses were mostly boiling down to "but I don't want to/shouldn't". Not only that, but -as also already mentioned in this thread- commanders a lot of the time explain those things and take care of it for those it's wasn't so obvious for.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Right now success is really high due to Machiniist bloat. Its one of those fights that benefits heavily from highly sustainable DPS and rifle clears nearly the entire arena. With the upcoming nerf to Power Machinist we'll likely see success rates fall off by maybe 20% or more as players are forced back into punishing melee DPS rotations which need to do alot of dodging and mechanic avoidance in this fight.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Silent.6137]

4 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 It almost sounded like you agreed with me in the "two criteria " portion of this quoted portion of the post but feels like  a backtrack. And if you're going to stick to your guns full boons + some healers isn't frc, i want you to tell me which other roles are global to all raids.

Do you actually read my replies and try to understand them or just skim through them for phrases to rebut? And in the process, quoting them out of context and attributing something to me that is not even remotely close to what I maintained.

My Point: Misleading statement.

Keywords: Full Raid Compositions (Can range from partial to full spectrum depending on encounters).

Hint: Not what you received but what the subgroup compositions were designed to provide.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Astralporing.1957]

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

As it was already mentioned before, organizing is not needed, it's not a choice between "you either organize or you fail"

Suuure it is not. That's why the groups that do not organize do fail. And why this is the only event that cares about boon coverage organizing at all (because up to that even at TT noone did that)

...oh wait.

(hint: it is "not needed" in about the same degree as it is "not needed" for actual raid encounters)

Edited September 30, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Astralporing.1957]

16 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

I will go tell my raids tank that he is not needed anymore and see how many bosses we clear.

About half of them, like i said?

[ugrakarma.9416]

well theres lot of reasons to this meta become more chill now:

- the pool of experienced is more high now. notice these days is very rate the "mass killings" due people failing on mechanics.

- theres less ppl experimenting with the new builds/specs.

 

one of the most insane runs, was once a squad have 7 bladesworns, i guess we ended with 8 minutes left.

[Linken.6345]

7 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

About half of them, like i said?

Nah 25% we cleared wing 4 instead of 4-7

[Astralporing.1957]

41 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Nah 25% we cleared wing 4 instead of 4-7

In w1 you have Sabetha. In w2 it's Sloth and Trio. W3 is Escort. W4 (well, apart from Deimos) you have already mentioned. W6 has CA and Twins. You can add to that Spirit Woods, Twisted Castle and River (even though they aren't considered bosses, they still give LI). None of those encounters require tanks (and some like Sloth or Samarog actually try to make sure the fixation mechanic gets shared around)

That's 11-12 out of 25. Or 9-10 out of 22 if you don't count the last three.

[Sobx.1758]

10 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Suuure it is not. That's why the groups that do not organize do fail. And why this is the only event that cares about boon coverage organizing at all (because up to that even at TT noone did that)

Yup, it is not. Already explained that above, did you read the posts?

People willing to organize do that to increase their chances to succeed, it's really a rather simple concept. I already mentioned one of my last random runs where we've started meta with 7 players in squad, while finishing it 3+ minutes before timer with 40+ people in squad and 0 organizing. So needed.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758