What is the proof that Anet hates Thief?

[Zacchary.6183]

1 minute ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

Oh, I definitely do. But I don't play the victim if I'm not being victimized. I've made warriors run away from me when I play deadeye on a controller. I've faced off against thieves that literally stand still and use their ports to chip away at my health while I can't do anything about it.

Thief is not the bottom of the barrel. If you can't kill on thief, you aren't good at thief.

Nice LARP. If something like infiltrator strike spam destroys you on your warrior, then you pretty much deserve it. Also I SEVERELY doubt you'd know what you're doing on thief for that fact alone.

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

12 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Nice LARP. If something like infiltrator strike spam destroys you on your warrior, then you pretty much deserve it. Also I SEVERELY doubt you'd know what you're doing on thief for that fact alone.

Do you think infiltrator strike spam alone can do that? 

[Zacchary.6183]

Just now, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

Do you think infiltrator strike spam alone can do that? 

Infiltrator Strike is the only skill thief has where you can "literally stand still" and "chip away at someone's health".

[kash.9213]

1 minute ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

Do you think infiltrator strike spam alone can do that? 

 

19 minutes ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

Oh, I definitely do. But I don't play the victim if I'm not being victimized. I've made warriors run away from me when I play deadeye on a controller. I've faced off against thieves that literally stand still and use their ports to chip away at my health while I can't do anything about it.

Thief is not the bottom of the barrel. If you can't kill on thief, you aren't good at thief.

If you know they're going to have to be within radius, make that radius hot and muddy. Thieves aren't bottom of the barrel. Thieves are also not likely to just stand still anywhere unless they've sized you up a little and know you didn't pack anything. I apologize if I'm reading all that wrong. 

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

2 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

If you know they're going to have to be within radius, make that radius hot and muddy. Thieves aren't bottom of the barrel. Thieves are also not likely to just stand still anywhere unless they've sized you up a little and know you didn't pack anything. I apologize if I'm reading all that wrong. 

Nah, there are some good thieves out there that stand around to challenge others because chasing doesn't give them fights. There is no other class that can do that. Even being revealed as the first move against them, they keep chugging along.

Thief has a high skill ceiling. That's why I don't see the "anet hates us" narrative as true.

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

Nah, there are some good thieves out there that stand around to challenge others because chasing doesn't give them fights. There is no other class that can do that. Even being revealed as the first move against them, they keep chugging along.

Thief has a high skill ceiling. That's why I don't see the "anet hates us" narrative as true.

So you actually mean they stand around some spot of the map waiting for a good fight and not actually standing still during a fight. So, if they're just standing there, that means someone has to come at them to engage and that means other players and other classes are partaking in that same activity. And, if you're aware of how that scenario plays out then you're taking part also. But, you got beat with Infiltrators Strike over and over so that means thieves are over tuned? 

Sorry If I got the wrong skill, I'm trying to think of some other blink or shadowstep other than Shadow shot that they can overwhelm someone with, even when loaded up with traits and modifiers. Shadow Shot is a pain but if you have to step up because they're not stepping out, then everyone should have an idea of what they're packing. 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by kash.9213

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

11 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

So you actually mean they stand around some spot of the map waiting for a good fight and not actually standing still during a fight. So, if they're just standing there, that means someone has to come at them to engage and that means other players and other classes are partaking in that same activity. And, if you're aware of how that scenario plays out then you're taking part also. But, you got beat with Infiltrators Strike over and over so that means thieves are over tuned? 

Sorry If I got the wrong skill, I'm trying to think of some other blink or shadowstep other than Shadow shot that they can overwhelm someone with, even when loaded up with traits and modifiers. Shadow Shot is a pain but if you have to step up because they're not stepping out, then everyone should have an idea of what they're packing. 

No, I was just answering you saying that there's no thieves that stand still. 

And I never said anything about anything being overtuned.

There's also other ways to stand still and react while putting in big damage in a fight. There's other weapon sets to include. That's why I specifically talked about killing warrior on thief. Warrior is the best class to get highlights while playing thief. Most of my highlights as thief is dunking on warrior.

[SlayerXX.7138]

On 10/5/2022 at 6:05 PM, Squeesidhe.4761 said:

So what specific proof do we have where they've said that they want to destroy the class? 

They don't want to destroy the class lol. Thief is just a challenging class to design with all the GW 2 Quirks. The developer just lack the will and skill to tackle this challenge in a meaningful way.

PvE: Initiative makes PvE design a nightmare. There is 1 best skill all the time. That is probably the reason each elite has to have a gimmick. GW lacks unique debuffs and threat management both potential sources of in fantasy thief support. Balancing DPS with complete disregard for factors like Healthpool makes a class like thief a little less appealing for casuals. Like devs who play their own game.

PvP: Thief is build for PvP. Which sounds great till, you remember in practice there can't be a best class in a competitive mode. GW2 is 10 years old. Enough people are skill capped. Which means even if you play as "unfair" as possible as thief it needs to be an even fight against good players. And the devs just have no idea how to handle that. Thief was good in PvP for ages, because the tools we have are just good tools in PvP. Your are a thief, you basically come with a gun to fist fight how do you balance that? Make the gun shots weaker, don't give a full magazine or increase the reload time it is still a gun, but this time the devs took the bullets out.

  

17 hours ago, Bern.9613 said:

Shadow Arts also has numerous traits that reward staying in stealth for extended periods of time, reinforcing the desire to create builds with high stealth uptime which can be difficult to interact with. (This is the part were they tell you apply lub and bend over---->) We want Shadow Arts to 😉reward stealth😆, but in a more active fashion🤣 than it currently does. To this end, many traits that triggered on intervals while in stealth have been reworked🤡 to instead grant their effects when entering or exiting stealth.

Enough said?

To much honestly. Why kitten on shadow arts rework? Arguable a buff to thief. I Do like my cleanse, imitative and superspeed thank you very much. To be fair i also would like more then 2 stack of Venom in PvP, but we cant have it all I guess. But it is not helpful to kitten on the dev for something that was at worse mediocre. Stuff like this, i why i understand why dev don't listen to "feedback" often.

 

Tldr: I'm pretty sure the devs don't hate thief. There is just nobody who has passion for thief on the team.

 

 

[itspomf.9523]

Going to echo what another said.  Dev team isn't against their creations, they're just too used to listening to the vocal minority which is the PvP community refusing to do what they demand the class does:  adapt and play harder.

Yes, it's annoying with its stealth and shadowsteps, but ... surprise surprise, that's not unique anymore!  In fact, it never was.  Mesmer had party and solo stealth from the start, and Ranger could stealth as well.

The problem stems from this strange mentality of "I entered the fight and set the terms, I deserve to see one of us walk out of this," which, frankly, is pretty asinine.  You're fighting a class the entire point of which is getting out of a situation and "resetting a fight," be that with dodges/evades, blinds, stealth, or simply poofing away.

Which, mind, are the bulk of its defenses.  Thief doesn't even have block on core skills or weapons, has a low health pool, and even with the spam-oriented revisions to Shadow Arts, it still gets a hard limit to getting back into stealth for 3 seconds unless they're playing Deadeye.

I'm still astounded that more competitive players who claim to be unrivaled in the knowledge of their class cannot conceive of simply using a few AOEs and cleaving attacks on a thief's last known location (or just retreat out of the way -- you know, use a thief's own tactics against them so they waste their stealth having to chase you, rather than lining up a backstab).

So ... yeah.  Am I trashing the competitive group that has gotten its way for years?  Yes, I am, mostly because what we're seeing is the game be fundamentally altered to cater to their mode of gameplay -- and yes, for quite a while, ANet was resistant to even split skills, which caused quite a few problems in the game, the same problems we're seeing now with this latest patch, in fact.

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil. I've removed some posts.

Regards.

[Emolesbian.3170]

I don't think Anet hates thief. I mean not the class, the vision they have (had?) for it. Classes in Gw2 are for me some of the most uniques in MMO with their class mechanics: Toolbelt, attunements, virtues, shattering...etc. And specs expended it nicely. I'm sure Anet loves each of them.

 

What I do think Anet hates about it is balancing all this mess and for due reasons. Particularly thief as its mechanic has no equivalent in the game. Just think about it:

 

- You have to consider this class as part of  a 9 class family. Logic would let you treat them evenly but in the end you can't because its the only one working this way.

 

- And because it's the only one. You have no point of comparison mechanically speaking in game. Tailoring a solution requires more work with no comparison to establish a concrete fix.

 

- If thief is one of the least played class, then the volume of data available also follows the same logic.

 

These 3 points are burdens in basic development (gaming or not). Pair it with time needed and man power required to such a task, you obtain a messy snowball.

 

Blind shot patches suck. This rough cut in shroud bar and hard to catch joke are for me. But I'd think twice before saying they hate thief.

 

PS: Don't get me wrong Anet. I think these are valid points for you and it must be say.  Doesn't mean I like what you did and do to my baby thief since then :P.

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Emolesbian.3170

[Dr Meta.3158]

15 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

They don't want to destroy the class lol. Thief is just a challenging class to design with all the GW 2 Quirks. The developer just lack the will and skill to tackle this challenge in a meaningful way.

PvE: Initiative makes PvE design a nightmare. There is 1 best skill all the time. That is probably the reason each elite has to have a gimmick. GW lacks unique debuffs and threat management both potential sources of in fantasy thief support. Balancing DPS with complete disregard for factors like Healthpool makes a class like thief a little less appealing for casuals. Like devs who play their own game.

PvP: Thief is build for PvP. Which sounds great till, you remember in practice there can't be a best class in a competitive mode. GW2 is 10 years old. Enough people are skill capped. Which means even if you play as "unfair" as possible as thief it needs to be an even fight against good players. And the devs just have no idea how to handle that. Thief was good in PvP for ages, because the tools we have are just good tools in PvP. Your are a thief, you basically come with a gun to fist fight how do you balance that? Make the gun shots weaker, don't give a full magazine or increase the reload time it is still a gun, but this time the devs took the bullets out.

  

To much honestly. Why kitten on shadow arts rework? Arguable a buff to thief. I Do like my cleanse, imitative and superspeed thank you very much. To be fair i also would like more then 2 stack of Venom in PvP, but we cant have it all I guess. But it is not helpful to kitten on the dev for something that was at worse mediocre. Stuff like this, i why i understand why dev don't listen to "feedback" often.

 

Tldr: I'm pretty sure the devs don't hate thief. There is just nobody who has passion for thief on the team.

 

 

Thief needs to be the best class at pvp because it is squishy in pve. Got it.

[Eleandra.4859]

To be honest,

I do not think that ArenaNet has any specific emotions towards the thief class. That would be not only unprofessional but the behavior we see (and interpret as "hate/sabotage")  would maximize pain and minimize gain.

 

If Anet sees an issue in the base concept of the thief class they would have much easier, constructive and less damaging ways to deal with it:

1. High effort + high reward: Redesign the class and eliminate the offending mechanics

2. If 1. is not feasible they could simply and clearly come out and state that they see no way to make the thief class work in the game and offer ways to migrate to other classes. This would in the worst case make 100% of thief players leave (which is the same worst case scenario we have now) but would have the upside to be seen as honest supportive instead of hurtful and disgusting.

 

The way it is now, they would have all the negative effects:

• High level of negative emotions

Hope that it will get better --> people sticking to the class

Continuous toxicity coming from a disillusioned and emotionally hurt player base

Have to put effort in "sabotaging" the class.

 

But not the "positive" effect of getting rid of the class cleanly.

 

Also as a computer scientist: Developers tend to get attached to their work and "killing off" an idea is hard even if it is bad.

 

Occam's razor therefore dictates that the reason is probably much simpler:

Ideas are not critically challenged before implementation.

Context is not taken into account (single target heal in a game with widely available group heal anyone?).

Low effort solutions with simple implementations are selected.

If badly received, emotional reactions from the Anet team are possible (see shroud "fix" after beta 1 for Specter - Vocal discontent with the shroud mechanic and many only use it for its heal. Instead of making shroud engaging, a punishing timer is introduced).

Bad communication ("We reduced shroud scaling to .69 because that is the same as necro", ignoring all the other factors like damage reduction and starting health pool). At least I hope that this was bad communication because the only other logical explanation is a level of incompetence that would make the "old" balance team bow in reverence.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Eleandra.4859

[LyraOrpheo.8450]

I dont think its Anet hates Thief, it's moreso non-Thief hate Thief, and even some Thief hate thief

 

I made a thread outlining Deadeye weaknesses and got replies like "its fine the way it is", sure that's why nobody plays it... Cant tell you how much it sucks to have efforts to provide feedback be sabotaged by the player base before it gets to the dev team 

Edited October 7, 2022 by LyraOrpheo.8450

[draxynnic.3719]

On 10/8/2022 at 1:15 AM, LyraOrpheo.8450 said:

I dont think its Anet hates Thief, it's moreso non-Thief hate Thief, and even some Thief hate thief

 

I made a thread outlining Deadeye weaknesses and got replies like "its fine the way it is", sure that's why nobody plays it... Cant tell you how much it sucks to have efforts to provide feedback be sabotaged by the player base before it gets to the dev team 

You weren't outlining deadeye weaknesses, you were claiming that everything you saw as a weakness was a 'tradeoff' in the sense of the 'tradeoffs' that ArenaNet said they were walking back from (eg: scrapper reduced vitality, berserker reduced toughness while in berserk mode, berserker only being able to use adrenaline while in berserk mode). The downsides to playing deadeye are mostly in the form of opportunity costs from not playing some other third traitline - deadeye didn't have any substantive changes made as part of the tradeoff craze.

I think I was the main person arguing against you there, but I did observe that deadeye might still be a bit lacking, just that the downsides to playing deadeye weren't 'tradeoffs' in the sense that ArenaNet were talking about. For instance, I recall that one of your main beefs was Deadeye's Mark having a cast time, but that's always been the case and is a comparable to guardian elite specialisations having more powerful virtue actives in exchange for those virtue actives having a cast time. Sure, deadeye would be stronger with a faster or even instant mark, and that might well be warranted... but this would simply be a straight buff, not the removal of a 'tradeoff' in the sense that ArenaNet was talking about.

The only such 'tradeoff' that thief was hit with was Steal being changed into Swipe for daredevil, and that's arguably a sidegrade rather than a downgrade.

PS: And, I guess, reduced initiative on Spectre, since that was designed during the tradeoff craze and is a distinct way in which you're worse off while running the spec that isn't just an opportunity cost.

Edited October 9, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[cyberzombie.7348]

They made willbender, an assassin-esque class that outperforms sword daredevil in almost every degree. Even by their lore, the job description is 1:1 of an assassin. Which make no sense considering assassins already existed in Cantha, and thief is the modern successor to that.

https://imgur.com/a/XtwhPAd

[draxynnic.3719]

The impression I get is that willbenders are primarily a counter-assassin force rather than being assassins themselves, although that does mean that they have a lot of skill crossover and can fill the assassin role if that's what's needed. Without stealth, though, they probably behave more like secret police than knives in the dark - if they perform a hit, everyone knows it was them.

[Zacchary.6183]

On 10/7/2022 at 11:15 AM, LyraOrpheo.8450 said:

I dont think its Anet hates Thief, it's moreso non-Thief hate Thief, and even some Thief hate thief

 

I made a thread outlining Deadeye weaknesses and got replies like "its fine the way it is", sure that's why nobody plays it... Cant tell you how much it sucks to have efforts to provide feedback be sabotaged by the player base before it gets to the dev team 

Thief has generated so much hate there are many a larper that will waste entire days trying to get thief nerfed "from an experienced perspective". 

Spoiler

(COUGHburnfallCOUGHCOUGHsanduskelCOUGH)

 

[Ashen.2907]

No such exists.

[Doggie.3184]

14 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

They made willbender, an assassin-esque class that outperforms sword daredevil in almost every degree. Even by their lore, the job description is 1:1 of an assassin. Which make no sense considering assassins already existed in Cantha, and thief is the modern successor to that.

https://imgur.com/a/XtwhPAd

That was pretty sad honestly. I picked Thief cuz I mained Assassin in GW1 and they gave the Assassin theme to a totally different archetype from GW1. Not to mention they did it twice, first being Shiro Revenant, the most well known Assassin NPC. It would be more acceptable if not for the fact that Core Thief should have had that dual sword set already upon release~ certainly long before a Guardian. Then there's the fact that Sword has never been useable as a main weapon in PvE.

I still find it lame that Assassins were weapon masters in GW1 but Thief ended up with so few weapons in GW2 without even getting to pull off Shiro's signature dual sword build. And half the weapons sets are designed for PvP only. But I guess that's because Thief is actually just a homeless child on the streets who started swinging a lost butterknife around and stealing apples rather than being glorious decendants or successors to Assassins.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Doggie.3184

[anbujackson.9564]

They hate no class.

So far they simply dont have a clear mind on how each class and spec should perform. And on some classes you notice this more than on others. As simple as that. 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

17 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

That was pretty sad honestly. I picked Thief cuz I mained Assassin in GW1 and they gave the Assassin theme to a totally different archetype from GW1. Not to mention they did it twice, first being Shiro Revenant, the most well known Assassin NPC. It would be more acceptable if not for the fact that Core Thief should have had that dual sword set already upon release~ certainly long before a Guardian. Then there's the fact that Sword has never been useable as a main weapon in PvE.

I still find it lame that Assassins were weapon masters in GW1 but Thief ended up with so few weapons in GW2 without even getting to pull off Shiro's signature dual sword build. And half the weapons sets are designed for PvP only. But I guess that's because Thief is actually just a homeless child on the streets who started swinging a lost butterknife around and stealing apples rather than being glorious decendants or successors to Assassins.

Eh. Daredevil, deadeye, and thief itself all draw from assassin, and assassin never really had dual swords, but dual daggers that were sometimes long enough to be short swords (something which is true in GW2 as well, but the decision to give daggers the icepick grip kinda ruins it). Willbender certainly has a bit of a guardian/assassin feel, but it's hardly the first elite specialisation to behave a bit like a secondary profession. It'd be nice to see thief getting double sword at some point, but I don't think another profession getting it first is some form of insult. Spectre has its problems, but thief did need something that wasn't another DPS spec (although it does fairly well as condi DPS too).

 

[Graeaw.6329]

Anet doesn't hate Thief, they just love other classes more.
You know that feel where you can't wait to be done with your job and finally do what you actually like?
Yeah, that job is balancing Thief.

[Doggie.3184]

16 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Eh. Daredevil, deadeye, and thief itself all draw from assassin, and assassin never really had dual swords, but dual daggers that were sometimes long enough to be short swords (something which is true in GW2 as well, but the decision to give daggers the icepick grip kinda ruins it). Willbender certainly has a bit of a guardian/assassin feel, but it's hardly the first elite specialisation to behave a bit like a secondary profession. It'd be nice to see thief getting double sword at some point, but I don't think another profession getting it first is some form of insult. Spectre has its problems, but thief did need something that wasn't another DPS spec (although it does fairly well as condi DPS too).

 

Assassins were literally weapon masters that could crit build with anything but their species died out cuz Thief is like a version that has amnesia and became sickly and frail in comparison. 

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Way_of_the_Master

And no dual sword spec, dual sword core Thief onry. Some core classes could use some more fleshing out~ like core Revenant is another that is lacking and could use another condi weapon.

[UNOwen.7132]

On 10/6/2022 at 5:55 AM, Bern.9613 said:

Josh Davis.7865

Shadow Arts has long been a source of frustrating gameplay, particularly in competitive PvP and WvW. This is partially due to the stealth generated by Concealing Restoration, Meld with Shadows, and Hidden Thief, which compounded with other Thief stealth sources to push stealth access to exceptional levels.

Shadow Arts also has numerous traits that reward staying in stealth for extended periods of time, reinforcing the desire to create builds with high stealth uptime which can be difficult to interact with. (This is the part were they tell you apply lub and bend over---->) We want Shadow Arts to 😉reward stealth😆, but in a more active fashion🤣 than it currently does. To this end, many traits that triggered on intervals while in stealth have been reworked🤡 to instead grant their effects when entering or exiting stealth.

Enough said?

Bit of a strange idea to take one of the few examples of a straight up buff and use it to argue that Anet hates Theif. The SA changes were great. They were too good even, the traitline is a bit overtuned.