Maybe vindicator shouldn't be able to dodge while immobilized

[Raknar.4735]

43 minutes ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

No, I have quoted that it is indeed not a dodge, or an evasion.

You have not quoted anything that specifically describes cloak from the game, nor the wiki.

 

AND No, the in game description for Mirage Cloak is described "Gain Mirage Cloak instead of dodging"...this is in game, in the minor adept....check it yourself...in game

 

I haven't changed course, it is not, and never had been a dodge or an evade. 

It is essentially functions like distortion, blur, invuln, but can inherit traits that noramlly apply to dodge.

 

Elusive mind will still work with Mirage Cloak, as it REPLACES dodge. (this is called logic)

 

IT IS NOT A DODGE, it REPLACES DODGE. 

 

 

I actually conceding your point about the vindicator dodge, because I can actually read and acknowledge when I am wrong.

 

It feels good to argue with people who can do the same, and since I have refuted you soundly, I am done replying.

Elusive Mind literally states that the Mesmer has to dodge in order to remove conditions. I've quoted it multiple times now. 

The ingame description says "Gain Mirage Cloak instead of dodge rolling. Ambush skills become available for a short time whenever you gain Mirage Cloak. Gain access to Deception skills." (https://imgur.com/a/LI0X3Pr)
You might want to check it yourself.

When we're talking Mirage Cloak itself (the effect, not trait), it literally says that it evades, like blur.

Elusive Mind doesn't work because the Mirage Cloak effect is on the Mesmer, it works because the Mesmer dodges. Otherwise it would say something like: "When you gain Mirage Cloak, remove conditions.", just like Infinite Horizon does (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Horizon).

The Mesmer still dodges. Dodge isn't replaced. You just don't dodge roll, but gain an effect instead.

 

Also, about the Vindicator:

I've just brought it up as @Eugchriss.2046 was correct about the Vindicator dodge being similiar to Mirage dodge to explain why immobilize works differently.

But even though the ingame description says that the Vindicator doesn't dodge I would argue that the trait is closer to the way the Mirage dodge works. I'm pretty sure they are coded very similiar, if not the same. So it should also say it replaces dodge rolling, as the grandmaster traits further modify the dodges, which is semantically incorrect. 

 But that's something for Anet to decide with their skill descriptions.

43 minutes ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

and since I have refuted you soundly

I'm not sure you did  : /
Kinda felt you've ignored some of the trait descriptions & instead just went with your own interpretations.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Raknar.4735

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

What ever Mirage Cloak or Vindi dodge count as, I stand by my statement that evades and dodges of any sort should be inhibited  when immobilized unless there is a skill rider or trait that removes the immobilize.

[ArthurDent.9538]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Just my 2 copper but no evade or dodge should work when you are immobilized unless it just so happens to clear the immobilize as part of the skill or from a trait.

Most evades work while immobilized it's only dodges that don't.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Most evades work while immobilized it's only dodges that don't.

I know, I'm stating that they shouldn't work.

[Alabastrum.9361]

If anyone cares. Vindis doge also kinda gets interrupted by hard cc but they still dodge afterwarss like normal despite getting hit. Not sure how it lools from their perspective though.

It is especially funny if you launch them.

 

[phokus.8934]

How to tell if it's a dodge or not test...

Put down a ward.  Try to dodge past it.  If you're stopped then it's a dodge.  Mirage Cloak and Vindicator dodge mechanics are stopped by wards.  Therefore they are dodges.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 10/17/2022 at 11:18 PM, Eugchriss.2046 said:

Not really. Usual dodges are basically evade paired with a movement. Like dodge forward, backward, etc... Vindicator have a static evade. Since immob prevents the target from moving, it can shutdow movements paired dodges but not static dodges. Haven't tested but I'm pretty sure mirage can dodge while immob too, reaver can dodge while immob too with earth sword #2 and twist of faith.

Nobody cares, it's good to have counterplay so fix it. Same with Mirage, it should also not be able to dodge while immobilized. Besides, skills that involve movement + dodge do work while immobilized, for example Warrior greatsword 3, so the movement excuse isn't even valid - you could just as well say that regular dodges should grant the evade but not the movement in immobilize.

At the end of the day people need to stop arguing what the definition of a dodge is, it literally does not matter, what matters is what is good for the game, and I say with confidence that the immobilize mechanic countering the dodge mechanic is good for the game - on both Vindicator and Mirage.

Edited October 20, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

18 hours ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

Do you press a button to activate anything in GW2?

Is a necro's 5, the same outcome as a thief's 5?

Is a necro's utility the same if they swap what gets put there?

Why is it hard to grasp that when you swap to mirage, you are choosing to swap what skill, movement, or effect is going into the V button?

Cloak is an effect, case closed.

You're saying that dodge is not dodge, because it doesn't say dodge, even though it does exactly what dodging does. By your definition Dash is not a dodge, because you run and not dodge and Bound is an attack skill since you deal damage when you land.

Here's the in game description on dodging:
"Dodge to avoid danger by pressing the V key or by double-tapping a movement key. While dodging, you're temporarily invulnerable. The yellow endurance bar above your health drains with each dodge, but it will recover over time."

Do you avoid damage in Mirage Cloak? Yes
Can you do it by pressing the dodge key, double tapping a movement key or clicking on your stamina bar? Yes
Does it cost stamina to do so? Yes

It's a dodge. 

[Shao.7236]

21 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Just my 2 copper but no evade or dodge should work when you are immobilized unless it just so happens to clear the immobilize as part of the skill or from a trait.

There are many skills if not all of them that includes evasion which ignores that fact. They are casted with all their evade frames without their movement.

[Virdo.1540]

Well it should dodge while being immobilized. Because if it dodges, it is still immobilized. Otherwise it could just land somewhere else. Immob still does what it should at vindicator. 

Other than that, vindi is dead. Dont kick down its tombstone

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

33 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

There are many skills if not all of them that includes evasion which ignores that fact. They are casted with all their evade frames without their movement.

Yes. And my statement is that in general immobilize should inhibit evades and dodges unless the skill states that it clears immob, or a trait causes the skill to do so.

We have unblockables to counter blocks, immob should be a similar counter to evades.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

43 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

yadda yadda

 

Dodges can't be used while immobilized, that's how it works for the whole world, except
- daredevil, but only if they equip a trait specifically to remove immobilize on dodge; their other dodges aren't usable with immob

- mirage (from a coding PoV it makes sense because mirage cloak is designed kind-of like a boon, more than anything else) and vindicator

Skills with built-in evades are a different thing.

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

 

Dodges can't be used while immobilized, that's how it works for the whole world, except
- daredevil, but only if they equip a trait specifically to remove immobilize on dodge; their other dodges aren't usable with immob

- mirage (from a coding PoV it makes sense because mirage cloak is designed kind-of like a boon, more than anything else) and vindicator

Skills with built-in evades are a different thing.

A coding PoV? Really? You mean from a design view, Vindicator if anything makes just as much sense as mirage from a coding PoV because it's a straight leap up.

One elite was added to the exception list, just like how mirage was back then, nothing is shocking about it.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

15 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

A coding PoV? Really? You mean from a design view, Vindicator if anything makes just as much sense as mirage from a coding PoV because it's a straight leap up.

One elite was added to the exception list, just like how mirage was back then, nothing is shocking about it.

I said coding PoV because I mean coding PoV.

Mirage cloak is its own thing because you're supposed to be able to perform actions while dodging. This creates a lot of balancing problems, since you're able to dodge while stunned -not just immobilized-, but there's no way around it: if you're able to do X during some animation, you're also able to do whenever you want, CC and conditions and animations be damned.

 

The dodge of a vindicator doesn't follow that pattern: it's not an instacast, it's just a weird dodge like the ones from a daredevil, so discussing whether or not you should be able to use it while immobilized makes sense. Unlike mirage, which (even though I'd agree should not be able to dodge during CC\immob) just can't do that without a total redesign of either the class or a certain amount of very basic functions nobody is ever happy to touch.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

On 10/19/2022 at 3:15 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Just my 2 copper but no evade or dodge should work when you are immobilized unless it just so happens to clear the immobilize as part of the skill or from a trait.

That would make immobilize way too strong, and it's already often a death sentence to get caught by. 

No movement skills are stopped by immobilize, they just don't move anywhere. So warrior Sword 2 will still leap into the air but not move if they're immobilized. The same thing is happening with Vindicator; they jump up but don't move, they just have evade frames tied to it. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

57 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

That would make immobilize way too strong, and it's already often a death sentence to get caught by. 

No movement skills are stopped by immobilize, they just don't move anywhere. So warrior Sword 2 will still leap into the air but not move if they're immobilized. The same thing is happening with Vindicator; they jump up but don't move, they just have evade frames tied to it. 

It's a good thing that condi clears and resistance exist then.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

1 hour ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

That would make immobilize way too strong, and it's already often a death sentence to get caught by. 

No movement skills are stopped by immobilize, they just don't move anywhere. So warrior Sword 2 will still leap into the air but not move if they're immobilized. The same thing is happening with Vindicator; they jump up but don't move, they just have evade frames tied to it. 

That's literally how every dodge button works on every class other than mirage (which can't be designed any other way unless they work on very old chunks of the engine) and vindicator 

[CutesySylveon.8290]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

That's literally how every dodge button works on every class other than mirage (which can't be designed any other way unless they work on very old chunks of the engine) and vindicator 

Because every dodge button is tied to mandatory movement besides those two. Those two are different and thus interact differently with immobilize. 

[CutesySylveon.8290]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It's a good thing that condi clears and resistance exist then.

This would bork the game in so many ways it's ridiculous. You'd have to disable all evasion skills while immobilized like a form of CC, which is hilariously unreasonable.

Want to use Warrior GS3? Too bad, you're immobilized so it's disabled. But wait, a trait clears immob on movement skill use! Except you wouldn't be able to use it because the skill is disabled. Or even in the case of Vindicator, you have Battle Dance, which evades backwards and gives resistance. Can't use it now because 'no evade or dodge should work when you are immobilized'. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

32 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

This would bork the game in so many ways it's ridiculous. You'd have to disable all evasion skills while immobilized like a form of CC, which is hilariously unreasonable.

Want to use Warrior GS3? Too bad, you're immobilized so it's disabled. But wait, a trait clears immob on movement skill use! Except you wouldn't be able to use it because the skill is disabled. Or even in the case of Vindicator, you have Battle Dance, which evades backwards and gives resistance. Can't use it now because 'no evade or dodge should work when you are immobilized'. 

See, if you had kept reading instead of just the first bit, you would have seen me state the rider "unless the skill or a trait clears the immobilize." Several classes have skills and traits like that, including warrior and revenant. Keep reading next time.

[Shao.7236]

52 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

This would bork the game in so many ways it's ridiculous. You'd have to disable all evasion skills while immobilized like a form of CC, which is hilariously unreasonable.

Want to use Warrior GS3? Too bad, you're immobilized so it's disabled. But wait, a trait clears immob on movement skill use! Except you wouldn't be able to use it because the skill is disabled. Or even in the case of Vindicator, you have Battle Dance, which evades backwards and gives resistance. Can't use it now because 'no evade or dodge should work when you are immobilized'. 

Battle Dance should honestly apply resistance before the roll. Not after.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

20 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Battle Dance should honestly apply resistance before the roll. Not after.

Both ways have some benefits and drawbacks. As it is, it lets you make use of the resistance more while freely in control. If it gave resistance before the roll, you'd actually roll backwards but have less uptime to attack with it.

 

It would definitely feel less clunky if it gave resistance before the roll.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

52 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

See, if you had kept reading instead of just the first bit, you would have seen me state the rider "unless the skill or a trait clears the immobilize." Several classes have skills and traits like that, including warrior and revenant. Keep reading next time.

I did, it would still break the game because those skills have to activate before the immob is cleared but wouldn't be able to because immob would disable them. You also shouldn't need a trait to clear the condi for skills that give resistance after the dodge effect like Battle Dance. It's a dumb idea that Anet will thankfully never consider. 

Your two cents weren't worth much.

Edit: This would also break things like Instant Reflexes, so it's even dumber. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by CutesySylveon.8290

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

I did, it would still break the game because those skills have to activate before the immob is cleared but wouldn't be able to because immob would disable them. You also shouldn't need a trait to clear the condi for skills that give resistance after the dodge effect like Battle Dance. It's a dumb idea that Anet will thankfully never consider. 

Your two cents weren't worth much.

Edit: This would also break things like Instant Reflexes, so it's even dumber. 

You fail to understand those traits then.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

See, if you had kept reading instead of just the first bit, you would have seen me state-

-that you shouldn't need a trait to clear condi for skills that give resistance, which you still need with your proposal. 

 

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Keep reading next time.

The system we have works fine as is, there are no inconsistencies. No need to change what isn't broken and break things in the process.