Why is there gambling in a game rated 13+?

[Jukhy.2431]

They are using the "you agree on these terms" method to "get around the system". From the User Agreement: "Responsible Adults must supervise their Minor Users’ Use of the Services."

In this context 'Responsible Adult' means a parent or legal guardian who must be at least 18 y/o. So if you don't want to do the 'parenting part' then don't let your kid play the game. That's also parenting, as in setting limits.

[Bakeneko.5826]

1 hour ago, Greg.7086 said:

Ecto gambling imo should be DELETED

Law is very clear, also - ecto is obtainable in-game within reasonable amount of time. While buying like 50 keys for rare drops is... Well... System is built around buying gems with money to obtain rare drop items.

12 minutes ago, Jukhy.2431 said:

They are using the "you agree on these terms" method to "get around the system". From the User Agreement: "Responsible Adults must supervise their Minor Users’ Use of the Services."

EULA doesn't override the law. No amount of EULA (in EU) can circumvent the law. Most countries are not up to speed, but technically it can be banned anywhere without much trouble as gambling is strictly 18/21+ with, or without parents, in many cases. EULA is there to protect one sided action (like ban) without needing some legal document for good cause - it protects company from user, not company from law.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Bakeneko.5826

[Farohna.6247]

9 hours ago, Taclism.2406 said:

why do I live in a world where people conflate lootboxes, gambling imaginary money , and gambling real money

also pretty sure I learned as a kid, from ingame lotteries, that gambling always leads to bankrupcy on the long run. Better learn that there than irl

This is a great point.  Use it as a teaching tool.  Games can help kids learn about budgeting, savings, etc.  While my parents taught me these things, games help reinforce and give you more of a visual in an environment without real life ramifications.  

How about talking to your kids about many of the themes in game, about gambling, about drinking, about choices?  And don't give them your credit card.  

[Jukhy.2431]

54 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

EULA doesn't override the law. No amount of EULA (in EU) can circumvent the law. Most countries are not up to speed, but technically it can be banned anywhere without much trouble as gambling is strictly 18/21+ with, or without parents, in many cases. EULA is there to protect one sided action (like ban) without needing some legal document for good cause - it protects company from user, not company from law.

6.2 Governing Law and Venue.
"This User Agreement will be governed [by] Washington State law, *excluding choice of law rules. You and NCSOFT disclaim any application of the United Nations Convention on the International Sale of Goods. You and NCSOFT each consent to exclusive venue and jurisdiction of the courts located in King County, Washington."

*the excluded countries are Germany and France under which it says "Section 6 of this User Agreement does not apply to you."

[costepj.5120]

If the concern is about the potential damaging impact of being exposed to gambling from too early an age, why stop there? If being able to gamble for virtual pixels is abhorrent, where do you stand on the wholesale slaughter of other virtual pixels? Should a 12 year old be rewarded for mass murder?
 

Indiscriminate Slayer	16https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/thumb/c/cd/AP.png/20px-AP.png
Kill 1000 ambient creatures.If small things were meant to live, they'd have bigger teeth or faster feet.

[Bakeneko.5826]

5 minutes ago, Jukhy.2431 said:

6.2 Governing Law and Venue.
"This User Agreement will be governed [by] Washington State law, *excluding choice of law rules. You and NCSOFT disclaim any application of the United Nations Convention on the International Sale of Goods. You and NCSOFT each consent to exclusive venue and jurisdiction of the courts located in King County, Washington."

*the excluded countries are Germany and France under which it says "Section 6 of this User Agreement does not apply to you."

you missed:

1.3.2 License Subject to Change.

Except as otherwise provided in Section 7 or 8 below or prohibited by applicable law (e.g. by the DCD for residents of an EU Member State), we may modify, restrict, or delete any Services, Account, or Name.

[Jukhy.2431]

2 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

you missed:

1.3.2 License Subject to Change.

Except as otherwise provided in Section 7 or 8 below or prohibited by applicable law (e.g. by the DCD for residents of an EU Member State), we may modify, restrict, or delete any Services, Account, or Name.

That says they may make changes to the user license in accordance to the applicable law.

Also, had to check what Washington State law says about online gambling and it is indeed illegal in the state (with some exceptions). I guess this activity does not meet the requirements of what constitutes as online gambling. Most likely because users can't gamble directly with real money, they can only buy gems with it and that is not gambling in the view of the law.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Jukhy.2431

[Bakeneko.5826]

16 minutes ago, Jukhy.2431 said:

That says they may make changes to the user license in accordance to the applicable law.

I repeat: we may modify, restrict, or delete any Services, Account, or Name. License is your ability to play the game - you don't buy game, you get license to play said game, this is why it is called "License Subject to Change.". Like you don't own your steam games, you don't own your GW2 account - you are licensed to use account that has your credentials. It's not that hard to understand...

Local laws takes priority over EULA, like in every civilised nation (maybe besides US)

Edited October 25, 2022 by Bakeneko.5826

[Mount Mazama.2917]

20 hours ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

 If this game is also targeted for kids then why is there gambling? BLC and ecto gambling being the 2 I can think of off the top of my head. Is there no law against this? Is Anet using a method to get around the system? I find this quite unethical. 

Almost all game are targeted at kids regardless of rating. Apex Legends is a T rated game but has a huge gambling mechanic that REQUIRES no questions asked real money to open a significant amount of loot boxes and has premium skins locked behind opening hundreds of crates. Kids play that game and it is targeted to them. At least in GW2 if you want to grind you kitten off to change gold into gems for BL keys you actually can do that. If you are not using real world currency then I don't see it being AS bad. If you are a parent you should not give your kids money to gamble with. It's all about hijacking the reward system in your brain just like social media and most mainstream activities now a days. Large companies have a lot of data on how to manipulate and entice you into spending your time and money in a way that does not serve you but rather serves them. I wonder where they got all that information... Oh yeah we gave it to them. 

This is not new and is not going away. Get your kids off most modern mainstream games if that is what's worrying you. The governement man isn't going to step in and save you or your kids. Arena Net is also unlikely to change the rating or gambling systems. You generate too much money off people trying to squeeze their brain dry of easy dopamine and these days everyone wants a quick and easy way to feel better about something it's literally the culture in at least half of the world.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Libera Simio.1592

[DanAlcedo.3281]

7 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Idk if it's happened in GW2, but there are def horror stories of kids running up their parents credit card on video game MTX. And contrary to the narrative constructed carefully by game lobbies of the rich whale who is targeted with these schemes, whales can easily just be someone who has issues with gambling, with compulsive spending, etc., and can't actually afford it.

To be fair, if the kid can just buy stuff, thats on the parents.

 

[Jukhy.2431]

1 hour ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

I repeat: we may modify, restrict, or delete any Services, Account, or Name. License is your ability to play the game - you don't buy game, you get license to play said game, this is why it is called "License Subject to Change.". Like you don't own your steam games, you don't own your GW2 account - you are licensed to use account that has your credentials. It's not that hard to understand...

I know that it is only a license and they may do as they wish, I have read the agreement. I fail to see what does "buying a license to use the service" has to do with "what law applies to the user agreement". These are two separate sections of the user agreement that deal with different topics.

Anyways, back to the topic: lot of online games do have this "magical pixel currency" you have to buy with real money before you can actually get the stuff you want from the ingame store - this is how they make it not a gambling activity if there are lootboxes involved.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Jukhy.2431

[Bakeneko.5826]

13 minutes ago, Jukhy.2431 said:

I know that it is only a license and they may do as they wish, I have read the agreement. I fail to see what does "buying a license to use the service" has to do with "what law applies to the user agreement". These are two separate sections of the user agreement that deal with different topics.

Anyways, back to the topic: lot of online games do have this "magical pixel currency" you have to buy with real money before you can actually get the stuff you want from the ingame store - this is how they make it not a gambling activity if there are lootboxes involved.

"Except as otherwise provided in Section 7 or 8 below or prohibited by applicable law"

[Gladiotor.7561]

20 hours ago, Zaraki.5784 said:

Only when (almost) every country in the world will have the same law as Netherland about games gambling, we will finally get rid of this gambling plague which is affecting videogames for too long already!

Belgium. Impossible to buy blc. I think we were even earlier than NL. Hard agree on this. 

But yeah people always forget we exist. 

[Jukhy.2431]

13 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

"Except as otherwise provided in Section 7 or 8 below or prohibited by applicable law"

Why do you keep quoting random stuff back at me? Just can't let it go, huh? You really want to "win" this argument? Well congrats, you won!

I have more interesting things to do than trying to win arguments in online forums.

[Bakeneko.5826]

35 minutes ago, Jukhy.2431 said:

Why do you keep quoting random stuff back at me? Just can't let it go, huh? You really want to "win" this argument? Well congrats, you won!

I have more interesting things to do than trying to win arguments in online forums.

So you can finally read it

[Super Hayes.6890]

Wow. I too have seen people destroy thier lives with gambling. If only it were illegal... 🤔 You know, because they won't simply do it illegally or destroy thier lives with some other addiction... In case you missed the sarcasm, making it illegal does nothing to save the people that fall to it too hard. What is in this game is fine.

[AliamRationem.5172]

21 hours ago, Zaraki.5784 said:

Only when (almost) every country in the world will have the same law as Netherland about games gambling, we will finally get rid of this gambling plague which is affecting videogames for too long already!

Maybe it's a cultural difference, but this is such a weird take to me.  I lost 1500g doing the ecto gambling achievement.  But so what?  Is losing some gold in a video game a "plague"?

Lootboxes.  I like them.  I spend half an hour each week to get a key just to see what I get.  Usually it's garbage, but sometimes not.  Then if I really want an exclusive item I buy a few keys and take a shot at it.  I almost never get what I want, but if I wait I can always buy it later by saving statues.

What's the problem here?  I guess I don't see why we need to protect the few at the expense of everyone else. 

They removed lootboxes in overwatch, too.  Now the monetization is so much worse than before. Just so we can protect some gamblers from themselves?  

[Khisanth.2948]

That is a question you should be asking the ratings board such as ESRB and PEGI.

9 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Idk if it's happened in GW2, but there are def horror stories of kids running up their parents credit card on video game MTX.

How did games become responsible for parents failing to do their job as parents?

[Labjax.2465]

4 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

To be fair, if the kid can just buy stuff, thats on the parents.

 

This is the same reasoning people use when a tragic accident happens to a kid. "The parent should have been watching them." Obviously, the parent wishes they had been and blames themself. But you can't prevent all such things from happening. If you try to obsessively, what you get is being a helicopter parent and I'm sure people who use this kind of reasoning would say those parents are overbearing, so there is no winning when the goal is just to blame everything on the parent and remove the broader environment from the picture entirely, which is just absurd. Parents are not superhuman and with the nuclear family / overworked to make money model, they are often exhausted and stretched thin just trying to manage it all, let alone live up to their own ideals, much less anyone else's.

[Silent.6137]

2 hours ago, Super Hayes.6890 said:

Illegal does nothing to save the people that fall to it too hard. What is in this game is fine.

 

2 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

They removed lootboxes in overwatch, too.  Now the monetization is so much worse than before. Just so we can protect some gamblers from themselves?  

 

1 hour ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

How did games become responsible for parents failing to do their job as parents?

Agree with the sentiments above.

It is so much easier to find something to blame such as games than to look at one's own failings. People rush to raise a family and than blame society if anything goes wromg.

You ban gamblings. All you're doing is drive them underground. You will not stop it. People will always find a way.

I can understand the reasons those who are against gamblings may have but to dictate the whole world should abide by them because of your stances?

-----

Why are there are State Lotteries in countries that banned gamblings in games? No matter what measures you put in place, they are all subjected to abuse.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Labjax.2465]

7 hours ago, costepj.5120 said:

If the concern is about the potential damaging impact of being exposed to gambling from too early an age, why stop there? If being able to gamble for virtual pixels is abhorrent, where do you stand on the wholesale slaughter of other virtual pixels? Should a 12 year old be rewarded for mass murder?
 

Indiscriminate Slayer	16https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/thumb/c/cd/AP.png/20px-AP.png
Kill 1000 ambient creatures.If small things were meant to live, they'd have bigger teeth or faster feet.

I assume you mean this like a gotcha, but I actually agree unironically. Countless games rely on mass murder as a game mechanic just because it's an easy way to present a challenge to the player and do an RPG leveling up mechanic along with it. Though I don't think the kind of cartoon murder in a game like this is a moral panic thing (last I knew, studies about violence in video games show more of a correlation between increases in physiological signs associated with aggression in racing games than in so-called violent video games) I do think that on an ideological level, it's often sending a poor message, saying that the solution to conflict is nearly always violence, when it's more of a case by case thing. Like movies and books, many "blockbuster" games go for mass appeal, which means whatever way of designing things is popular and straightforward to do.

Interestingly though, on this subject, one of the first computer games I played was KOTOR and in that game, there was killing, but there was a lot less random mowing down of enemies like a typical modern RPG. There were opportunities to avoid a fight or stealth around it and if you wanted to play the baddie, you might seek out fights more than otherwise. I think that's a much better teaching tool than something with no options.

[Labjax.2465]

7 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

 

 

Agree with the sentiments above.

It is so much easier to find something to blame such as games than to look at one's own failings. People rush to raise a family and than blame society if anything goes wromg.

You ban gamblings. All you're doing is drive them underground. You will not stop it. People will always find a way.

I can understand the reasons those who are against gamblings may have but to dictate the whole world should abide by them because of your stances?

-----

Why are there are State Lotteries in countries that banned gamblings in games? No matter what measures you put in place, they are all subjected to abuse.

Last I checked, families aren't trying to actively prey on video game companies. But video game companies do actively prey on their customers to extract as much money from them as they possibly can (far beyond what is needed to sustain their business); they shamelessly exploit vulnerabilities in human psychology and intentionally design addictive patterns to get people to buy things they don't really want or need and play long past the point they want to keep playing. And you're siding with the companies because some vague accusation of people "rushing into" raising a family and "having failings" (something everyone has). BTW, if you are standing on a ledge and someone pushes you off it, that isn't a "failing." They pushed you. People need to stop pretending like individuals are bulwarks of executive function who are immune to outside influence and are people who are trying to shirk responsibility if they ever dare acknowledge responsibility beyond their own. It's putting an idealistic view of the human psyche over reality and makes no sense.

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

To be fair, if the kid can just buy stuff, thats on the parents.

True, blaming something or someone else when the parent/s leave their credit cards accessible to anyone -including the child- is just looking for a scapegoat for their own mistakes.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Silent.6137]

7 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Last I checked, families aren't trying to actively prey on video game companies. But video game companies do actively prey on their customers to extract as much money from them as they possibly can (far beyond what is needed to sustain their business); they shamelessly exploit vulnerabilities in human psychology and intentionally design addictive patterns to get people to buy things they don't really want or need and play long past the point they want to keep playing. And you're siding with the companies because some vague accusation of people "rushing into" raising a family and "having failings" (something everyone has). BTW, if you are standing on a ledge and someone pushes you off it, that isn't a "failing." They pushed you. People need to stop pretending like individuals are bulwarks of executive function who are immune to outside influence and are people who are trying to shirk responsibility if they ever dare acknowledge responsibility beyond their own. It's putting an idealistic view of the human psyche over reality and makes no sense.

Seriously? Only video game companies prey on their customers to extract as much money from them as they possibly can? That argument is so generic you can use it to assign blame on practically any companies at all. Selectively stimatizing a whole industry, that's so laughable.

Never did say individuals are not subjected to influences. But to place the majority of the blame and put the responsibilities on something that someone willingly partcipate in? How about taking responsibility for one's own action first?

[Labjax.2465]

2 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Seriously? Only video game companies prey on their customers to extract as much money from them as they possibly can? That argument is so generic you can use it to assign blame on practically any companies at all. Selectively stimatizing a whole industry, that's so laughable.

Never did say individuals are not subjected to influences. But to place the majority of the blame and put the responsibilities on something that someone willingly partcipate in? How about taking responsibility for one's own action first?

Show me the part where I said only video game companies prey on their customers??? I compared it against families preying on video game companies (which doesn't happen). What a ridiculous thing to say. It's interesting how you insist on families taking responsibility for their actions, but you don't mention the companies taking responsibility for their part in it (which is actively predatory).

Edited October 25, 2022 by Labjax.2465