What *theme* would you like to see Anet expand on for a future e-spec?

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

well they can easily solve this concern in holo by deleting it and rebuilding it as an engineer mesmer using holograms for its illusions.

Dude, now you become delusional. You are suggesting here that they are deleting a working elite spec just to open up design space for the next one, requiring them to basically design 2 engineer elite spec for the next expansion (the replacement for holosmith + the new spec).

This is not going to happen, come on.

[Stalima.5490]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Dude, now you become delusional. You are suggesting here that they are deleting a working elite spec just to open up design space for the next one, requiring them to basically design 2 engineer elite spec for the next expansion (the replacement for holosmith + the new spec).

This is not going to happen, come on.

I know, I'm just joking around.

 

But on a more serious note, I believe that if we attribute each engineer spec to one of the races you would have charr scrappers, asuran holosmiths and human mechanists.

This would leave spaces for some form of sylvari bio engineer working with either plants or as i mentioned earlier, mutations etc.

And possibly a norn engineer that would probably bring state of the art hunting traps, also giving an avenue for engineer bows.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Stalima.5490

[Bookah pls.9352]

A mechanical based shapeshifter, no idea how they would do it visually but if any class is gonna manage shapeshifting concept it's gonna be engineers since traditional shapeshifting is kinda tied to norns.

Maybe golem suits or something.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 10/31/2022 at 1:54 PM, Stalima.5490 said:

no, holo is more like half a revenant

This class mechanic would be like a forcefield generator so it would gain a solid defense it can activate, it could then have other barriers/containment abilities.

After all, we have seen engineers activate barriers and such but we don't really have a solid focused version.

 

or perhaps they could just make a gadget elite that gives the engineer barrier, maybe breaks stuns and possibly a wall toolbelt.

Don't really see any revenant in there. Holoforge is essentially similar to harbinger shroud except that instead of being limited by a meter that builds up when out of shroud and depletes when you're in it, it's limited by a meter that builds up while in holoforge and depletes once you leave. The 'hard light' concept referenced in the spec is basically another term for a force field, and nearly everything that holosmith has is either creating weapons or defensive fields out of hard light. I guess you could say that it doesn't have a 'constrain enemy movement' ability (apart from Prismatic Singularity) like guardian does, but it's still basically the concept you asked for. All it would take was to make the walls of Hard Light Arena prevent enemies from crossing them and holosmith would be exactly what you asked for.

[Eros.6801]

What a i would like to see is something similar to Bladesworn's Gunblade or Berserker mode.

- We still have our toolbelts and a button to equip/trigger a Mechanical Gaunlet (a legit fist weapon)

- Similar to how traits that turn the Mech into melee/range mode i wish we could do the same with the Gaunlet but more of a brawler type melee focused gamplay either high power or high condi  or high survival via block or some sorts.

- While in Gaunlet mode we can have access to burst ability or change our toolbelts into completly new utilities.

The idea based entirely on Exoskeleton concept.

[Majic.4801]

The Engineer "Architect" Elite Specialization

What I would love to see, but admittedly doubt I ever will, would be what could be called an "Architect" that specializes in building temporary structures as a primary mechanic.

Architect Structures would be temporary immobile pets that could be built (i.e., summoned with a channeled construction animation) for both offensive and defensive purposes.

Examples would include walls, turrets (stronger and more varied than the core versions), bunkers that players could take shelter in and heal or use special weapons, and the like. There would inevitably be a lot of overlap between these structures and WvW consumables such as catapults and ballistas, et al, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, whether in WvW or PvE.

During construction, the Architect would be relatively vulnerable due to channeling, but if interrupted, could fight off attackers and resume construction progress less any damage sustained by the unfinished structure during such interruptions. Managing that vulnerability through strategic deployment of different structures, as well as repairing and maintaining them, would be a key element of Architect gameplay.

Like core turrets, there would be limits to how long Architect Structures would last, since there really isn't a strong need for yet another means of unattended gameplay (I'm looking at YOU, Minionmancers, camped all over the best farming spots for hours on end). Structure duration could be maintained through some sort of hard-to-bot maintenance action the Architect would need to take, perhaps a long, slow degeneration over time in addition to repairing damage, or reloading ammunition, etc.

The upside is that a lot of the basic mechanics are already incorporated in WvW siege weapons, which have been in use for a decade in a wide range of situations, and which could be adapted into the new specialization with less expense than rolling them from scratch.

The main downsides are that an Architect wouldn't be well-suited for highly mobile gameplay, which most of it is (though that could be addressed by allowing Architects to build temporary combat vehicles in addition to immobile structures), preventing structures from being used for griefing in PvE (blocking off resource nodes and interactables, for which the easiest and most obvious solution would be to make them non-blocking for players in PvE but blocking and attackable in SPvP and WvW), balance would be particularly nightmarish to establish across game modes, especially SPvP and WvW, and if not done right (on top of everything else, it would have to be fun to play) could potentially end up being a major trainwreck for the designers and let-down for Engineer players hoping for a better elite specialization.

Still, knowing all that, it's hard not to dream of an Engineer that, you know, engineers stuff.

File under "idle pipe dreams".

Edited November 4, 2022 by Majic.4801

[Kuma.1503]

My dream for engineer is an expansion that aims to flesh out each of the core professions. 

Engineer would benefit from that more than a new elite spec. 

Kits are outdated. They have a lot of role overlap with each other. Fleshing them out and properly distinguishing them from each other would be a great help.

Also update their models. Especially mortar kit. I would LOVE race specific models for each. But failing that,  Mortar Kit's placeholder model getting the replacement it was promised would be very appreciated. Imagine if they were replaced with the over-the-shoulder canons from Icebrood Saga... 

 

Pistol needs an update.

• Poison dart volley misses moving targets.
• Blowtorch misses stationary targets.
• Static shot hits like a wet noodle if it doesn't bounce.
• Fragmentation shot should be an explosion, and the after cast is longer than it should be. 

 

Engineer needs a power MH and OH weapon. This would benefit every elite spec. 

• Holo will finally have a power weapon to use with sword. 
• Heal Scrapper can finally run a power MH weapon with shield and deal more than negative damage. 
• Power Mech needs it the least, but they can run Mace/X for a close range brawler playstyle. 
• Core would also benefit. We'd be able to run a power mainhand with shield in PvP/WvW. We wouldn't be pigeonholed into rifle on every power build. 

Gadgets and Turrets could use some tweaks. I and a few others have made very in-depth posts about how turrets can be reworked. 

Gadgets should be ammo-based utilities that fill one very specific purpose. Right now, rocket boots are in a good place.

You take them for mobility, and that's all you get. 

 

Goggles should be rewroked into a 2 ammo anti-steath gadget. When active, you cleanse blind and become immune to blind for X seconds.  Your screen takes on a green tint. 

Additonally, Have it work like the HoT mastery where stealthed units appear as transluscent sillhouettes to you and only you. 

The toolbelt skill will still be detection pulse. It will reveal stealthed units in an area around you. In a team based context, you can use the goggles  to "scout" out stealthed units, and then use Detection pulse to reveal them to your allies. Could be a fun bit of counterplay to stealth that comes at the cost of being far less useful against enemies that do not stealth. 

 

For Battering ram, rework it into a ~300 range mini dash that removes movement impairing conditions. Mimicking an angry ram breaking loose from its snares and butting you with its horns. The toolbelt can remain as is. 

 

Finally slick shoes. I'm thinking these can work similar to Willbender's flowing resolve but with a twist. You kick goop in the direction you aim, inflicting chill and slow on enemies struck(the goop is slowing them down) while simultanously doing a mini dash backward while leaving a trail.. Enemies that cross the line are knocked down. 

 

 

Something along these lines would make me much happier than a new elite spec. Fleshing out core gives us new ways to play every spec. 

 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

Personally, I'd be fine with holosmith getting relatively little damage out of the offhand, as long as that means it gets balanced on the basis that the offhand is primarily there for utility rather than damage. The builds that do well tend to be the ones that don't need every skill on their bar to contribute to damage and can therefore bring utility as well, and shield brings some decent utility.

[cyberzombie.7348]

I always wanted a trapper engineer. Preferably one that's a heavy in cc's and debuffing, but poor mobility at a cost. 

[Dadnir.5038]

On 10/31/2022 at 1:56 PM, Stalima.5490 said:

well they can easily solve this concern in holo by deleting it and rebuilding it as an engineer mesmer using holograms for its illusions.

They actually can't.

That said it would have been a nice if holosmith dealt with holograms like a mesmer does with clones. Obvioulsy I picture holograms that would be like they are freshly out of the super advanture box.

[Nash.2681]

I just want them to stop adding more E-Specs. Balancing hell is real already, plz no more fuel to that fire.

[Dadnir.5038]

Things that I think would work well with engineer:

- Traps. How come engineer don't have access to one of the most mechanical kind of utilities?

- Preparation/Venom. Same here, those are utility categories that scream "engineer" from my point of view.

- Shortbow/longbow/crossbow. Those are weapons that I picture as technological.

- Self-inflicted conditions. Work thematically with alchemy, the act of ingesting "chemical substances" and have great synergy with the trait "purity of purpose".

- Gravity/magnetism/float/pitfall. There is already a few skills here and there that take advantage of this theme, but there is room for a spec based on it. If holo is a "fire/light attunment" engineer and scrapper an "air attunment" engineer, this would be an "earth attunment" engineer. 

- Water pressure jet, Steam and Cryo-tech. The "water attunment" engineer but focused on offense self defense and control through ice instead of healing like a water elementalist (It kitten me off that water elementalist is forced onto healing there is a need for a spec that control water and Ice offensively without this "healing attunment" prejudice).

- Environmental bundles. I believe that an Engineer should be able to gather ressources from it's environment as well if not better than a skritt or a porcine can.

Edit:

- Sound/infrasound/ultrasound/echolocation.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Kodama.6453]

7 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

- Gravity/magnetism/float/pitfall. There is already a few skills here and there that take advantage of this theme, but there is room for a spec based on it. If holo is a "fire/light attunment" engineer and scrapper an "air attunment" engineer, this would be an "earth attunment" engineer. 

If we look at the engineer with this "attunement lens", then mechanist kinda already feels like the "earth attunement engineer" for me.

Lots of barrier (which becomes more and more associated with earth magic for elementalist), lots of CC, blunt weapon which fits the thematic.

Heck, we are using jade tech. Jade is literally a kind of stone.

7 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

- Preparation/Venom. Same here, those are utility categories that scream "engineer" from my point of view.

Preparations would be the utility type I am interested in the most for engineer. Traps just work well with the technological theme (even tho I personally would like them to be devices to spread chemicals on the field) and being able to decide yourself when they activate also is both flavorful (remote activation) and more interesting for gameplay.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

As a side note, there are quite some utility skill types which seem like natural fits for other classes and I hope we see some of them used in the future elite specs:

• Ranger / Venoms: Venoms are all themed as being taken from animals all across Tyria for the thief. It always felt weird for me that ranger doesn't also have access to that skill type. They sit at the source!
• Guardian / Punishment: As in "divine punishment", fitting for a overzealous inquisitor type elite spec.
• Elementalist / Meditation: Generally having a scholar profession with this skill type would be great. Mesmer magic feels more "intuitional", so I would give this to the elementalist here. Dream spec would be an elemental archer who focuses on less elements (picks 2 of the 4 available), but has a bigger mastery for them because of this. And meditations are a strong part of their training.
• Necromancer / Spirit Weapons: Less weapons made of pure light, more weapons infused with the unlucky souls of the damned to do the necromancers bidding.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[Jerus.4350]

8 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

I always wanted a trapper engineer. Preferably one that's a heavy in cc's and debuffing, but poor mobility at a cost. 

I've always wanted a MacGyver spec.  Tricks and Traps as skills and toolbelt skills.  Have a resource you have to build up (gotta collect those paper clips and matches) that either empowers or gives access to those tricks and traps.  And the Elite blows all the resources for a home-made rocket launcher which acts basically as a super powered Mortar kit, 1 shot choose out of 5 options.  Just a rough idea of something I like for the trap idea.

[Dadnir.5038]

11 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

If we look at the engineer with this "attunement lens", then mechanist kinda already feels like the "earth attunement engineer" for me.

Lots of barrier (which becomes more and more associated with earth magic for elementalist), lots of CC, blunt weapon which fits the thematic.

Heck, we are using jade tech. Jade is literally a kind of stone.

Yeah, you're not wrong, but... Let's just say that this perspective leave me with a sour aftertaste.

[Nero.7369]

Since I realistically don't expect dual daggers as power weapons for core engi one day... I'd love to see a EngiXThief spec:

A mobile and stealthy brew master of boon corrupting toxic acids (preparations), who throws around daggers which they dualwield 🙂

Edited November 23, 2022 by Nero.7369

[draxynnic.3719]

On 11/8/2022 at 6:20 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Yeah, you're not wrong, but... Let's just say that this perspective leave me with a sour aftertaste.

I'd contest the 'not wrong' part. Dragonjade is magically solidified seawater infused with water dragon magic. Lots of barrier and CC is a description that also applies to scrapper. There's also a lot of (green) electrical effects, teleportation, and other effects that I wouldn't attribute to earth.

Personally, though, I'm not convinced on the elemental lens to begin with. Holosmith is primarily (hard) light and fire is a secondary association of sufficiently intense light. Scrapper has electrically powered drones and an electrically enhanced hammer, but I don't consider it to have an electrical focus, the electricity is just there as a nod to the link between electricity and technology. Mech also has plenty of electrical effects, and even holosmith has a few if you know what to look for, they're just usually graphical flourishes rather than the primary themes of the skills.

Broadly speaking, I'd rather see themes based around scientific, science fiction, or technological concepts. Scrapper was, essentially, drones. Holosmith is forcefields. Mechanist is robotics. There's plenty of room for other themes, such as electricity, magnetism, and chemistry. Overlap with elementalist may occur because they're both dealing with physical phenomena, but they wouldn't necessarily link up in the same way. An electricity-themed engineer, for instance, wouldn't be expected to have any wind-themed abilities like an air elementalist would, but might instead make heavy use of magnetism as a secondary theme due to the scientific link between the two, even if an elementalist would place magnetism under a different element.

[Kodama.6453]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'd contest the 'not wrong' part. Dragonjade is magically solidified seawater infused with water dragon magic. Lots of barrier and CC is a description that also applies to scrapper. There's also a lot of (green) electrical effects, teleportation, and other effects that I wouldn't attribute to earth.

Of course it is not a perfect match, I am personally also not convinced that it is the right thing to do to look at the engineer elite specs with the elemental theme lens. But if I had to assign the elite specs to one of the elementalist elements, then assigning mechanist to earth just makes the most sense to me.

There are a few odd things, like you mention that it also has green electrical effects and such, but it is the best compromise I can see.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

ersonally, though, I'm not convinced on the elemental lens to begin with.

Same here.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Scrapper has electrically powered drones and an electrically enhanced hammer, but I don't consider it to have an electrical focus, the electricity is just there as a nod to the link between electricity and technology.

Have to disagree with that. There are some electrical effects on the other elite specs, too, but I think scrapper is especially also hard focusing on a electrical theme (and also mass momentum):

• Hammer: 4 out of 5 skills have an electrical theme (and let's be honest, rocket charge just doesn't have an electrical theme because it is a relic from before they completely scrapped the old concept of scrapper and reworked it into the electric theme)
• Focus on combo fields in general, but especially the lightning combo field (scrapper comes with 4 new lightning combo fields, the second highest amount is water combo fields with just 2; used to have traits which specifically trigger if a lightning combo field is used)
• Traits have been thematically focused mostly on 2 themes: mass momentum and electricity.

The electrical theme of the scrapper is way more than just a nod towards electricity usage in technology. It is one of the main focuses of the spec in theme and also one of the biggest focuses of the general aesthetic of the spec when it comes to it's animations.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Broadly speaking, I'd rather see themes based around scientific, science fiction, or technological concepts. Scrapper was, essentially, drones. Holosmith is forcefields. Mechanist is robotics. There's plenty of room for other themes, such as electricity, magnetism, and chemistry. Overlap with elementalist may occur because they're both dealing with physical phenomena, but they wouldn't necessarily link up in the same way. An electricity-themed engineer, for instance, wouldn't be expected to have any wind-themed abilities like an air elementalist would, but might instead make heavy use of magnetism as a secondary theme due to the scientific link between the two, even if an elementalist would place magnetism under a different element.

I agree about the general concept of designing the engineer elite specs around scientific and technological concepts.

Disagree on electricity being a good candidate, tho. I see electricity already heavily explored in scrapper, so another spec which heavily focuses on that theme would feel redundant for me.

Great candidates for an elite spec in the future for me as themes would be: chemistry, bio-engineering, cryo-tech, magnetism (and yes, this can have some electrical elements, just like holo or mechanist also had, I just would avoid using electricity as the primary focus of a spec because we already have scrapper)....

Preferably, the theme should work well for boon removal, since this is the major gameplay niche I see as still missing from engineer, especially since they removed the boon rip from our minefield. Historically, a chemical theme seems appropriate for this, since it was used in the past for some of our boon removal options (the old trait acidic elixirs comes to mind).

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Have to disagree with that. There are some electrical effects on the other elite specs, too, but I think scrapper is especially also hard focusing on a electrical theme (and also mass momentum):

I could pick apart your arguments individually, but let's try a hypothetical instead:

On March 32, 2023, there is an update retheming scrapper. The hammer bears an internal reservoir of chemicals that wear away at enemy armour and adding an acidic coating to the hammer in its autoattacks, inflicting vulnerability and granting might. Acid Whirl spreads acid in all directions, melting enemy projectiles. Chemical Shield creates a sheet of self-hardening chemicals. The final hammer skill releases a cloud of debilitating gas, similar to thief's Choking Gas.

Gyros are now powered by fuel rather than capacitors, creating a cloud of fumes that act as a poison field. Barrier in general is explained through self-hardening chemicals that act as a form of ablative armour against enemy attacks before it cracks and falls off.

Mechanically, it's identical to current scrapper, apart from substituting some lightning fields for poison fields. Shredder Gyro's toolbelt is still a lightning field, but it's themed as lightning coming from a chemical reaction.

 

Would this fit the chemical theme you want?

If yes, would you be happy for this change to go through, knowing that after this the chemical theme would be considered to be done?

 

If you answered "no" to either of the above questions, then hopefully you can now see why I don't consider scrapper to fit the electric theme. The electricity is all incidental, and could easily be replaced by some other theme with only minor changed to how the spec plays. It just doesn't fit the 'fantasy' of an electrical theme.

Scrapper's theme is, fundamentally, a brawler melee engineer wielding a hammer, supported by drones. The drones happen to be powered by electricity, and they went on and used electricity to spice up the hammer, but this merely establishes that the scrapper uses electricity (just as holosmith, mechanist, and core engineer with certain traits do). Most of the utility skills are unrelated to electricity except as a power source for gyros, and it plays nothing like you'd expect a character with an electrical theme to play. To properly cover the electrical theme, a specialisation would need to commit to it as much as holosmith commits to light, rather than just being some sparking effects around a melee weapon (you can get that by playing warrior with Charged Stormcaller weapons...) and a couple of fields.

Ironically, the closest thing to an electricity-themed engineer at the moment is probably static discharge holo, maybe with The Predator or Kralkatorrik's Persuasion. 

[Kodama.6453]

18 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Would this fit the chemical theme you want?

I think this here is actually the core of the problem.

Scrapper does have an electrical theme. It just doesn't have it in the way you want it to be represented and that's why you want a second elite spec with electricity as it's main theme.

To answer the 2 questions you asked: If scrapper would have been designed with these chemical themes, I personally would also not be happy with the result, since it isn't represented in the way I would like it to (condi damage and boon removal), but in the end I would have to accept that this niche is already filled and we should probably go for another theme in future elite specs.

Now let me ask you a question: You say that scrapper doesn't really fill the electricity fantasy for you. What exactly is that electric theme fantasy you want to get fulfilled?

Because I think scrapper does this perfectly fine. Especially on the engineer, electricity is highly associated with CC. Look at the skills with electric theme from the core engineer, almos all of them are applying hard CC:

• Static Shield / Throw Shield: Stuns and dazes.
• Static Shock (AED toolbelt): Stun
• Electrified Net: Stun
• (Traied AED: Stun via lightning aura)
• (Magnetic Shield / Magnetic Inversion: Knockback, if we count electromagnetism as part of the theme)

The only skills with electrical theme which are not associated with hard CC on engineer are the lightning from Static Discharge and Static Shot from the pistol.

Scrapper enhances this CC mentality of the electrical theme even more by it's trait system, which allows you to gain barrier from CCs (the trait is themed for electricity as well, it's System Shock with a lightning motive), expert examination adding weakness and vulnerability to stuns and dazes (again, electrical theme for this trait) and so on.

It has been even further in that niche back then when Gyros exploded into dazing lightning fields, but this got removed, so this hardly counts as an argument.

Anyway, what fantasy about the electricity engineer is not fulfilled on scrapper for you? What exactly are you missing? AoE damage? That's also something scrapper provides. Especially with the hammer attacks.

Or is it really just that "scrapper animations are not electric enough"? Because I think they are.... Whenever I see the aetherblade scrapper on the EoD maps, I immediately recognize it by seeing all the electric animations, so I go "yep, that's a scrapper over there".

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I think this here is actually the core of the problem.

Scrapper does have an electrical theme. It just doesn't have it in the way you want it to be represented and that's why you want a second elite spec with electricity as it's main theme.

As you later low-key acknowledged, electricity is an engineer theme. If you add them up, there's more electricity-themed skills and traits in engineer than there are in scrapper. Scrapper only has electricity because it comes out of engineer. Scrapper's core themes, as I've said, are gyros and having a durable melee presence. Electricity is just a graphical flair. Heck, based on some of the leaks and rumours back in the day, adding electricity to scrapper at all seems to have been a last-minute decision.

 

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Now let me ask you a question: You say that scrapper doesn't really fill the electricity fantasy for you. What exactly is that electric theme fantasy you want to get fulfilled?

The theme is normally associated with throwing lightning around in some form. That could be single-target, chaining effects, or, as you said, area effects - although on an engineer basis, I probably wouldn't focus on area effects because engineer has a lot of other themes that can fill that role.

A starting point would be having a weapon something like this. That isn't the only example of an environmental weapon that has the appropriate theme and style, and it probably isn't the best (there are some asura lightning guns floating around various events and hearts, but I picked an example I could find quickly... and hey, it's a technological staff, so it also presents a sensible way for engineer to get staff!), but it serves as a proof of concept and gives a general theme. Ranged, and more single-target-oriented than area-oriented, with attacks striking multiple targets being more likely to be piercing or bouncing in nature rather than striking in a radius.

Utilities should then also stick to the theme, as much as holosmith utilities stick to their theme. Which is another of the big objections I have to the idea that scrapper covers the electric theme: even if you consider "blunt force trauma that happens to be enhanced by an electric charge" to fit the theme, it doesn't offer utilities to match. Medic and purge gyros are chemical in nature, bulwark is force fields and some weird quantum entanglement that transfers damage, blast is a bomb, stealth is an invisibility field, and shredder is sharp physical trauma - the only thing that adds to the supposed electrical theme is the toolbelt skill of shredder gyro. Even adding core engineer stuff doesn't add much apart from picking out good toolbelt skills for Static Discharge. Heck, again, holosmith does better for an electrical theme in this capacity, since not only does it offer good Static Discharge fodder, but many of the graphics also have secondary electrical effects, especially at high heat.

Now, I generally don't lay out all the details when presenting ideas because ArenaNet generally likes to put their own spins on things, but to give a broad, two-point TLDR:

1) The weapon should involve shooting out electrical discharges at range, rather than being a melee weapon with a fancy graphic.

2) Utilities should follow or at least support the theme (as opposed to scrapper where the theme of the utilities is clearly 'gyros').

 

Point 2 is something I'd probably apply to any case where an elite specialisation is claimed to have a particular theme, unless there is a very strong case for an exception. And probably double when considering engineers since an unusual proportion of engineer's overall character comes from utility choices.

Edited November 15, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Kodama.6453]

33 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The theme is normally associated with throwing lightning around in some form. That could be single-target, chaining effects, or, as you said, area effects - although on an engineer basis, I probably wouldn't focus on area effects because engineer has a lot of other themes that can fill that role.

I really don't get why we so heavily disagree if this applies to scrapper or not.

Scrapper DOES throw around lightning, usually in AoE... hammer 5 is calling lightning from above, creating an electric field with it that deals ticking damage. Spare capacitor, a device is placed on the ground which ticks damage and CCs. Function gyro is called by calling down a lightning once again, which also creates a lightning combo field, the gyros are just summoned if there is a target available.

44 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Electricity is just a graphical flair.

Maybe that is where majority of the misunderstanding between us comes from. Because when I am talking about theme, I think "graphical flair" is the most important aspect.

There is not much "inherent gameplay mechanic" for a theme. You can make any gameplay mechanic work with any theme you want, as long as you are creative enough.

You have proven as much yourself with your little thought experiment about making scrapper the chemical theme elite spec for engineer. You can make it have a chemical theme while keeping basically all gameplay the same. The main difference of the theme is just aesthetical flair, not gameplay mechanics.

There are some themes and gameplay mechanics which are associated with each other, like I mentioned with electricity being associated with hard CC for engineer or how chemicals were once the flair of some of our boon removal.

But in the end, they can make any theme work with any gameplay. Electricity is the thematical flair of the scrapper, which also has some ties to the gameplay because of CC.

48 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

A starting point would be having a weapon something like this. That isn't the only example of an environmental weapon that has the appropriate theme and style, and it probably isn't the best (there are some asura lightning guns floating around various events and hearts, but I picked an example I could find quickly... and hey, it's a technological staff, so it also presents a sensible way for engineer to get staff!), but it serves as a proof of concept and gives a general theme. Ranged, and more single-target-oriented than area-oriented, with attacks striking multiple targets being more likely to be piercing or bouncing in nature rather than striking in a radius.

And honestly, this point here just reads to me that you are disappointed that we got a melee electric weapon with hammer instead of a lightning rod.... Hammer is a weapon with strong electrical theme, it just didn't use the theme in the way you wanted it to.

Which is sad, but hardly an argument for a missing electrical theme in engineer elite specs.

55 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Utilities should then also stick to the theme, as much as holosmith utilities stick to their theme. Which is another of the big objections I have to the idea that scrapper covers the electric theme: even if you consider "blunt force trauma that happens to be enhanced by an electric charge" to fit the theme, it doesn't offer utilities to match. Medic and purge gyros are chemical in nature, bulwark is force fields and some weird quantum entanglement that transfers damage, blast is a bomb, stealth is an invisibility field, and shredder is sharp physical trauma - the only thing that adds to the supposed electrical theme is the toolbelt skill of shredder gyro. Even adding core engineer stuff doesn't add much apart from picking out good toolbelt skills for Static Discharge. Heck, again, holosmith does better for an electrical theme in this capacity, since not only does it offer good Static Discharge fodder, but many of the graphics also have secondary electrical effects, especially at high heat.

The electrical theme of gyros has been stronger in the past, back when they all exploded with electrical effect and left behind a dazing lightning field that gave superspeed.

So yeah, some of the electrical theme has been lost here. Still have spare capacitor and the lightning field from Bulwark Gyro, tho.

So this is your strongest argument so far, but I still think that the utility skills not filling the electrical theme anymore completely negates that the rest of the elite spec is so heavily focused on that thematic. There is still function gyro, hammer, traits....

[draxynnic.3719]

17 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I really don't get why we so heavily disagree if this applies to scrapper or not.

Scrapper DOES throw around lightning, usually in AoE... hammer 5 is calling lightning from above, creating an electric field with it that deals ticking damage. Spare capacitor, a device is placed on the ground which ticks damage and CCs. Function gyro is called by calling down a lightning once again, which also creates a lightning combo field, the gyros are just summoned if there is a target available.

Did you notice how you just cherry-picked the three things, out of the entire elite specialisation, that actually fit within the supposed theme? Sure, there was more in some patches, but the fact that it was removed pretty much demonstrates that ArenaNet didn't consider it a major theme in the spec. You can also see this if you review the promotional material - there's one shot showing off Thunderclap, but the rest is all focusing on big hammer and gyros. Because that's what the Scrapper theme actually is. It's engineer with bashy melee hammer supported by gyros. Even Thunderclap could be interpreted as being an Orbital Strike-style effect from a high-flying gyro with a big capacitor.

Now, if I was going to play your game, I could easily argue that the chemical-themed engineer already exists, and in spades. Unlike electrical-themed engineer, it is in fact possible to go pretty much purely chemical themes! Dual pistols are a good start, especially if you consider the flame from Blowtorch and the Explosive Shot auto to be of chemical origin (which they probably are), but if that's just not pure enough, you can just camp Elixir Gun. You have elixirs. Apart from AED, every heal skill involves some form of chemistry - engineers aren't elementalists, their 'water fields' aren't healing anything unless the water is just the solvent for something more potent. Depending on how narrowly or broadly you define the theme, you could even bring Mortar and/or Grenade Kit. There's an entire alchemy traitline, and splashes of the theme in other traitlines. If you want an elite specialisation, you can dip into scrapper, pick up Purge Gyro, maybe Med Gyro, Blast Gyro if you accept chemical explosions, and interpret Function Gyro as a delivery system for Elixir R. Scrapper even has the quickness you originally wanted for the chemical theme now! We're only a couple of substitutions away from heal quickness scrapper, a viable listed endgame build!

Compare this to the electrical-themed engineer: Anything one might try to put together is going to be diluted by other themes. One can get a good start with pistol/shield, but the weapon skills that fit the theme are at the back end of the bar, the skills that one will be using more often emphatically don't. There's no electrical-themed kit - closest one has is Orbital Strike off the mortar kit, and that's if one is playing core. In terms of other utilities... AED is an electrical-themed heal, probably the last thing one would really be looking for but the accompanying toolbelt skill is okay, but apart from that, the only thing one will find in one's utilities is the electrified net of Net Shot, and that only happens on the first net thrown. One has to turn to traits. Static Discharge carries a lot of weight, but every time one triggers it one is still triggering something else that isn't in the theme, and it doesn't play nicely with pistol since SD is power and pistol is condi. One could run Aim-Assisted Rocket, but as the name suggests, that fires more missiles than ion cannon blasts. 

Now, lets look at elite specs.

Contrary to your claims, scrapper is actually the WORST of the elite specs for an electrical theme. Hammer? There's a lightning field at the end of the bar, and the rest is just sparks in melee attack animations - if that was all one wanted, one could just use a weapon skin that has that, there's no shortage of those. One can create another lightning field through Function Gyro, and the toolbelt skill of Shredder Gyro, but in both cases the focus is on the gyro. (Okay, in the second case, the gyro is a separate skill, but the gyro is the primary skill and the field is the secondary skill. Nice whirl finishers though, I guess?)

Mechanist is better, as long as one doesn't mind one's lightning being an unnatural green colour. One can stick to pistol/shield, and mace/shield is at least as electricity-themed as scrapper hammer. With traits, the mech might be generating bolts of green plasma (close enough), and there's two distinct sources for a field of green lightning (Superconducting Signet, Discharge Array) around the mech. But there's the fundamental problem. Just as Scrapper's theme is drones, mechanist's theme is jadetech robotics. The electricity is not the central theme, merely an associated theme because electricity is a convenient power source which can then be weaponised.

If one is to attempt to make a pure electrical theme, the only approach is to broaden it to electromagnetism and run holosmith. Light-themed sword and electromagnetism-themed shield, AED, and load up on the Exceeds - maybe compromise a bit and squeeze in Rifle Turret for extra Static Discharge fuel. It ain't great, and I don't think anybody's going to unironically claim holosmith is 'electricity themed' when it's so clearly light/holotech-themed, but it's the closest there is.

 

The point, though, is that if I was going to take your approach, I could easily make the claim that the chemical theme is also already adequately covered and therefore there's no reason to have an elite specialisation that focuses on that - and that's without even bringing up harbinger! Now, I don't, because I know full well that what I described is not what you want... but you're not doing me the same courtesy. The only truly valid reason I can see for claiming that scrapper is electricity-themed and therefore there's no need for 'another' electricity-themed elite specialisation is that you don't want to see one because you'd rather see something else. And if you want to continue down that road... well, two can play at that game. 

 

Scrapper simply does not cover the electricity theme. Its theme is gyro-supported melee combat. Cherrypicking a few fields and particle effects on a melee weapon doesn't change that when 5/6 utility skills have nothing to do with electricity and the theme is more associated with ranged combat. Now, if the electricity theme is not something you're interested in yourself, then you have every right to express that opinion, but don't try to gaslight me and tell me it's already there when it clearly isn't.

[Kodama.6453]

11 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Scrapper simply does not cover the electricity theme. Its theme is gyro-supported melee combat. Cherrypicking a few fields and particle effects on a melee weapon doesn't change that when 5/6 utility skills have nothing to do with electricity and the theme is more associated with ranged combat. Now, if the electricity theme is not something you're interested in yourself, then you have every right to express that opinion, but don't try to gaslight me and tell me it's already there when it clearly isn't.

I guess at this point we have to agree to disagree about this.

You are right that I don't really want an electric themed engineer elite spec. Because the electric theme is the strongest component of the scrapper for me, so it would feel redundant. As a class fantasy, there is nothing it gives me, it would feel like scrapper 2.0.

I didn't try to gaslight you, it's more that we have very differing views on this particular elite spec as it seems. You experienced this thing as "me trying to tell you that it is electrical themed when it clearly isn't". Meanwhile I was seeing this conversation as you trying to talk away all the electrical themes I clearly see on this spec.

When I look at scrapper, what I see is that this whole thing is almost entirely about electricity. That's not how you experience it and that's fine. We interpret this spec differently and no one will convince the other that their vision on it is correct.

So basically, everyone just should keep expressing their opinion on this matter. If you want an electrical themed elite spec, advocate for it. I will advocate against it still. We don't have to agree on this matter.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I think a chemical theme would be redundant with the elixir gun, flamethrower and alchemy traitline + associated utilities already existing. I just hope next engineer spec will be ranged focused.