November 29 Balance Update Preview - Elementalist

[Terminsel.5728]

12 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

It's a melee build.  It's always going to be at a disadvantage in encounters where you're forced to move off of the target frequently.  That's why melee builds need to have higher potential damage than ranged in order to be competitive.  If balance is the goal, you would expect ranged builds to come out ahead in these forced movement encounters while melee builds come out ahead in more stationary encounters rather than ranged builds having better damage in both cases.

As for conjures, it's beyond annoying that they have taken zero action on these skills at this point.  We've been suggesting changes to these skills for years.  It's past time they did something about it.  That it's particularly relevant to a build that is so undertuned that you literally never see it played is, well, it's just what we've come to expect from ANet: extreme neglect of this class.

 

Totally.  But maybe they could do other things to offset some of those melee problems.  Perhaps a free block everyone once in a while (see DH passives), or better barrier, or better weapon damage and more utility/less damage on skills that are literally named Utilities.  Things that would let you mitigate some of the damage if you decide to hang in there against an attack and take the hit instead of dodging, in order to keep rotating your skills.  Weaver is punished heavily for messing up the rotation because so much goes into it.  Or faster cast/better damage/shorter CD on Glyph of Storms so that it is at all comparable to DH Traps, but you could use them while stepping away (while lacking the weapon swap ability of DHs).  Or weapon slot 5 stuff that was at all comparable to axe on Soulbeast.  But ... they don't.

I suspect they are going to use the Opportunity Cost bullet point eventually to punch Ele's Jack of All Trades aspects in the jaw.  Doing that will then allow them to force Eles to trade in even more than they've already given up (or don't have) to get to the top of the DPS heap.  We thought they were glass cannons already?  Just wait.

[Arheundel.6451]

Nobody gives a sod about youtube benchmarks, hitting a static golem that doesn't hit back should not be a tool for balance:

-Targets move around

-Targets can hit back

-Targets can be humans and not some AI mob

First order of balance it's always efficiency and reliability in gameplay ...not how much you can bench for your youtube video: human players don't give a sod for how much you can hit the golem and even average pvers won't care about your snowcrow flashy show...as they will go for easier and more enjoyable options.

Buffing sword weaver? Good....but nobody in practice cares about dmg coefficients or DPS...if you can't hit the kittening target, so that is the priority for balance

[AliamRationem.5172]

15 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Nobody gives a sod about youtube benchmarks, hitting a static golem that doesn't hit back should not be a tool for balance:

-Targets move around

-Targets can hit back

-Targets can be humans and not some AI mob

First order of balance it's always efficiency and reliability in gameplay ...not how much you can bench for your youtube video: human players don't give a sod for how much you can hit the golem and even average pvers won't care about your snowcrow flashy show...as they will go for easier and more enjoyable options.

Buffing sword weaver? Good....but nobody in practice cares about dmg coefficients or DPS...if you can't hit the kittening target, so that is the priority for balance

That's all the more reason for it to deal more damage, no?  Short of completely giving up on melee builds like sword weaver or reworking them into ranged builds, what's your solution?  If the problem is that it can't remain in melee range, then obviously it needs to deal more damage in order to be competitive.

[Arheundel.6451]

22 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

That's all the more reason for it to deal more damage, no?  Short of completely giving up on melee builds like sword weaver or reworking them into ranged builds, what's your solution?  If the problem is that it can't remain in melee range, then obviously it needs to deal more damage in order to be competitive.

How can more damage alone help in this situation?

-Yes the power dmg on sword weaver is pitiful in all game modes and the condi variant is carried by primordial stance, take that away and there is no good condi weaver in my opinion: overall dmg on sword weaver is garbo

-Ability to stick to the target for a melee build...it's atrocious, too easily kited

-They need to reduce animation time and after cast of dual skills

-Polaric Leap should work similarly to guardian sword teleport and CD reduced to at least 10s 

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

How can more damage alone help in this situation?

-Yes the power dmg on sword weaver is pitiful in all game modes and the condi variant is carried by primordial stance, take that away and there is no good condi weaver in my opinion: overall dmg on sword weaver is garbo

-Ability to stick to the target for a melee build...it's atrocious, too easily kited

-They need to reduce animation time and after cast of dual skills

-Polaric Leap should work similarly to guardian sword teleport and CD reduced to at least 10s 

For PvP, sure.  Sword has needed better ability to apply damage to moving targets from the start.  For PvE this is not the problem at all. It simply needs more damage first and foremost.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

It looks like the balance team just doesn't quite know what to do with Catalyst.  The essence of their changes are simple: prevent cata-stacking while giving us back what was previously stolen.  All of their changes are a soft admission that they don't expect players to achieve and maintain Empowering Empowerment.

Still, though, I am looking forward to what this patch has for cata.  It looks like the damage is going to be buffed by quite a bit.  The scepter changes I don't much care about, largely because I don't use the scepter that often.  I am disappointed that weaver got nothing PVE-wise, but at least I'll have cata to play while we wait 6 months for some sword buffs.  

[Kozumi.5816]

I consider this patch an Ele nerf since everyone else is being buffed and we aren't.

  

22 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

No buffs to sword weaver? No faith in these devs.  Rapidly losing interest. 

Basically nerfing it, too. Since every one else is buffed.

This is why power creep is bad for games.

  

20 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

There are other weapons besides scepter that they did jack kitten for and for a PvE patch this looks decidedly PvP focused.  I think some disappointment is warranted here.

Focusing balance on a unsupported dead game mode is an extremely questionable decision.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[fuzzyp.6295]

Other than the changes to scepter there wasn't really anything too interesting. I still wish ANet would take a look at some of the bad dual attacks for Weaver, but eh.

But I am so excited for the Scepter changes. Can not wait to give them a spin on my Fresh Air Catalyst and Weaver. 🙂

[soulknight.9620]

I think we need to agree on one thing. Noone here is against scepter rework. It works better for pvp/wvw, and barely will be noticable in pve. Noone has problems with it except people that liked water trident the way it was. 

The frustration comes from the fact that anet ignores the main weapon of an elite spec to a point it is not usable in any pve weaver builds whatsoever. 
As for the "damage is not the answer" it is. Lets just say there is a scepter build that can dish dps while kiting boss or spreading or doing any other mechanic of the boss while still doing some decent dps (like literary scepter weaver looses a few k dps due to primordial stance, thats it). That build basically has no dps downtime. So lets just say for example it does solid 36k dps. Now a sword weaver has problems that he needs to spread away from the boss, kite mechanics or just plain run towards jumping bosses. So at this moment he is not doing dps. So to get the same result as scepter build he would have to do 40-42k spike dps during burning phases to make up for "no dps" running/kiting phases. That way it would end up somewhere around 36k dps considering the downtime of dps. Thats why melee spec needs more dps - to make up for the dps downtime during kiting/running/spreading etc. Sure, on golem and some golemish bosses the dps would be a bit more than scepter, but that is ok, since sword is taking risks being melee, scepter does not (or at least it can take advantage of long range). 

Edited November 12, 2022 by soulknight.9620

[Qori.9671]

Just look at all the changes for ele , it's like we buffed this part of skill and added 2sec CD , we increased blah , and lowered this. 

Then look at something like engi where its all just flat out buffs. this is always ele patch notes . 

[Axelteas.7192]

what Anet claims their philosophy is. High ceiling skills providing a high reward for being well played and weaver simply does not provide that at all. 

 

Skill is not rewarded anymore, look at mech, or untamed, and all the Low intensity builds...

[thetwothousand.5049]

I was just watching Teapots review of the patch notes and he found something new in the Catalyst notes that weren't talked about on the stream.

Flame Wheel, Icy Coil, Crescent Wind, Rocky Loop: These skills now strike enemies once per second instead of using a projectile. Increased power coefficient from 0.001 to 0.25 in PvE only.

 

It looks like these skills are still going to pulse individually, give more energy that initially thought, and will be getting a large DPS increase. With the other changes Cata might actually be good, we'll have to see.

 

He makes the same points that we do here though. Tempest alac is still funky and needs an adjustment, and that sword weaver needs some solid buffs to get it off the ground. Really hope the devs are listening to all this feedback!

[AliamRationem.5172]

5 minutes ago, thetwothousand.5049 said:

I was just watching Teapots review of the patch notes and he found something new in the Catalyst notes that weren't talked about on the stream.

Flame Wheel, Icy Coil, Crescent Wind, Rocky Loop: These skills now strike enemies once per second instead of using a projectile. Increased power coefficient from 0.001 to 0.25 in PvE only.

 

It looks like these skills are still going to pulse individually, give more energy that initially thought, and will be getting a large DPS increase. With the other changes Cata might actually be good, we'll have to see.

 

He makes the same points that we do here though. Tempest alac is still funky and needs an adjustment, and that sword weaver needs some solid buffs to get it off the ground. Really hope the devs are listening to all this feedback!

Glad he mentioned sword weaver.  They won't listen to us, maybe they'll listen to him.  Whatever...

[DaKillaOfHell.5907]

Just my comments on the changes:

 

- Dragon Tooth has been like that since beginning, and despite it being "weird", it was kinda nice skill. I find it very remarkable they realized that failed design in 10 years.

- Why nerf phoenix? It was okay like it is, or did I get that wrong?

 

- Ice-shard/water trident/shatterstone: So they want to make it a damage spec, but instead nerf the damage even further for shatterstone, while removing heal from trident which has always been a nice addition?

The overall problem about water is just that it is underwhelming and punishing to choose water instead of fire or lightning when doing dps, or earth. This problem will not be removed by buffing dps on water skills (while nerfing others), instead, it has always been okay support. But nothing more.

 

- Lightning Strike: It is okay to buff it, but wasn't that good anyway. 

• - Blinding flash: Nice to make it aoe, however, a non-damage skill has no meaning in a dps-attunement.

 

- Rock barrier/Hurl: Finally some meaningful changes, the skill has been a bit underwhelming, and now, condi weaver becomes stronger again with that. (Has already been quite strong).

- Dust devil: I don't get it, the skill has been weak, and will be weak, however, good sign is they add some more support for that one.

 

And now comes *drums drumming*

 

• Evasive Arcana: Fixed an issue that prevented this trait from triggering Flame Burst while dodging.

 

I cant believe my eyes that I see this change in my lifetime!!!!!!

 

Shearing Edge: No idea if this should change me using sword for condi and then going for water instead of using scepter which is by far better for condi weaver???

I mean, the overall problem is that sword sucks in many, many ways, and it is no option for condi weaver at all.

 

• Hardened Auras, Empowering Auras, Staunch Auras, and Elemental Epitome: These traits will now only trigger when the catalyst grants an aura to themselves, rather than when gaining an aura from any player.

 

So Catalyst gets a massive nerf again?

Not to mention it has been the spec with the hardest nerfs in history in the entire time of gw2 and the playrate is nowadays literally nonexistent (I come back to that point later)

 

 

• Flame Wheel, Icy Coil, Crescent Wind, Rocky Loop: These skills now strike enemies once per second instead of using a projectile. Increased power coefficient from 0.001 to 0.25 in PvE only.

 

Good is, they finally realized the problem of hitboxes (which they also never admitted for glyph of the storm or meteor storm respectively).

But nerfing it to the ground by a factor of 100 and then buffing it by a factor of 250?

 

Overall, it is quite underwhelming and makes the impression of the devs not having any plan of how to balance the class and specs, especially after the recent updates. 

Honestly: Alac Tempest is stupid beyond reasoning, for depending on putting up a four-second-cast for buffing alac. Overall, tempest is still in a far better position than weaver or catalyst though. 

But I think, the devs also don't really have their eyes on the biggest issue:

 

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity

 

Soon, you can't even hover over the ele specs with a mouse, because their overall popularity is almost nonexisting in all pve game modes.

[the krytan assassin.9235]

1 hour ago, DaKillaOfHell.5907 said:

So Catalyst gets a massive nerf again?

Nah Catalyst gets a massive dps increase if you're able to properly play it. 

 

First of all: stormsoul now applies 10% extra damage against defiant foes. The trait now easily beats raging storm (180 ferocity). Should increase its dps by ~5%. Empowering auras now deals an extra 5% damage boost aswell. 

On top of that the orbs will actually deal damage now. 0.25 dmge coefficient on all orbs can easily provide another ~4k dps. 

That being said catalyst will become harder to play. It no longer is able to get any help to sustain 10 stacks of EE and energy will be harder to manage due to the 1s cd on orbs. 

 

Ppl already did some numbercrushing and said it will be able to deal dps in the ~45k range with the proposed balance changes. At the same time the majority of catalyst players wont be able to reach anywhere near these numbers, cata will become speedclear meta again, Anet will decide cata is to "meta defining" and will get nerfed in the next balance patch leaving catalyst in a worse spot then its currently at. 

[solemn.9670]

I must have Stockholm syndrome because I thought these changes sounded incredible. Both in a powerful sense and also in a "wow, is arenanet actually buffing elementalist? That never happens lmao" sense.

Do I wish staff and sword (beyond one skill getting bleed -__-) got some love? Of course. But you'll understand that my bar for anet balancing ele is very, very low. Staff dps weaver was continually nerfed despite almost no one playing it and it generally not being an issue to anyone who can stand outside of red circles.

Fire weaver, roaming/pvp wise will for the most part play out the same role as fire catalyst except it takes twice as long to kill anything. Would've been nice to see some power sword buffs for WvW/pvp (PvE is not a game mode I recognize). I expect nothing from anet at this point.

So, .... I'll take it

Scepter tempest roamer will be very good. Fresh air scepter weaver might have a place in the roaming meta again. Scepter catalyst will be very good, already is pretty good pre-patch.

[soulknight.9620]

4 hours ago, thetwothousand.5049 said:

Really hope the devs are listening to all this feedback!

 

Ele is fine (c) Teapot for years now. 
Dont actually get why this sudden "change of heart" should deserve more attention than years of feedback on the forums. 

[JPUlisses.8756]

What casual people do: whining about heal alac tempest and PvP being dead and that mechanist not easy enough

 

What casual devs do: devs just forgot weaver existed and buffed everything else

Edited November 13, 2022 by JPUlisses.8756

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

11 minutes ago, JPUlisses.8756 said:

People whining about heal alac tempest

 

Reality: everyone forgot weaver existed

The true reality: Core Elementalist? What's that? Some type of noodle dish?

[the krytan assassin.9235]

6 minutes ago, JPUlisses.8756 said:

People whining about heal alac tempest

 

Reality: everyone forgot weaver existed

Nah not really. It's just that the history of Anet has shown that they can't be bothered enough to actually create more balance changes. At best they'll say they will take a look at it in the next balance patch ~4 months later and ask the community for some patience while simultaneously throwing all ideas in the trash can. 

They did revert a couple of the proposed balance changes in the last couple balance patches. Maybe because they actually cared or maybe because they wanted the community to feel like they cared (probably the last one 😢). Anyways there's more chance of succeeding in complaints about the proposed changes then complaining about the lack of implementations of some of the community proposed changes.

[JPUlisses.8756]

13 minutes ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Nah not really. It's just that the history of Anet has shown that they can't be bothered enough to actually create more balance changes. At best they'll say they will take a look at it in the next balance patch ~4 months later and ask the community for some patience while simultaneously throwing all ideas in the trash can. 

They did revert a couple of the proposed balance changes in the last couple balance patches. Maybe because they actually cared or maybe because they wanted the community to feel like they cared (probably the last one 😢). Anyways there's more chance of succeeding in complaints about the proposed changes then complaining about the lack of implementations of some of the community proposed changes.

I don't think so if anything I think they listen too much but only from a particual set of loudest people, so everyone keeps trying to be louder and louder

I just think anet tries too hard to asnwer to the echo chamber of easy pve raid damage only life. This is seen by neglecting WvW and PvP while making firebrand and mechanist super easy

 

Instead they should hire someone to make mathematical balances and just remove weaver traits that completely against the way the spec should be played like one single element and have no sygerny with the ways it should be played (all elements) and just remove the cooldown from the elite and just lower the element buffs duration from elite much lower forcing you to change element as fast as possible and do the rotation as fast as possible outputting dps and automatic party support while having a good cc available if played properly.

 

But no, anet likes the echo chamber cry babies and its time to milk them again, specter wah heal tempest wah catalyst damage while giving quickness wah muh 1 button win wah

Edited November 13, 2022 by JPUlisses.8756

[Junkpile.7439]

Core ele marauder/berserker gear on still have 14k hp, under 2k armor and crappy utilities. Core mesmer does +20k under sec, core guardian do +20k under sec, ranger hit like truck compared ele, core necros life blast hit like dragon's tooth. Ele does maybe same if he land phoenix, dragon's tooth, ring of fire, fire crab and all crit.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Junkpile.7439

[Kozumi.5816]

On 11/13/2022 at 10:58 AM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Glad he mentioned sword weaver.  They won't listen to us, maybe they'll listen to him.  Whatever...

The devs don't read the forums because we're toxic.

[AliamRationem.5172]

16 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

The devs don't read the forums because we're toxic.

Nothing toxic about it.  Feedback was provided.  Bleeding on shearing edge is what we got. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by AliamRationem.5172

[Nephalem.8921]

On 11/13/2022 at 10:37 PM, JPUlisses.8756 said:

I don't think so if anything I think they listen too much but only from a particual set of loudest people, so everyone keeps trying to be louder and louder

I just think anet tries too hard to asnwer to the echo chamber of easy pve raid damage only life. This is seen by neglecting WvW and PvP while making firebrand and mechanist super easy

 

Instead they should hire someone to make mathematical balances and just remove weaver traits that completely against the way the spec should be played like one single element and have no sygerny with the ways it should be played (all elements) and just remove the cooldown from the elite and just lower the element buffs duration from elite much lower forcing you to change element as fast as possible and do the rotation as fast as possible outputting dps and automatic party support while having a good cc available if played properly.

 

But no, anet likes the echo chamber cry babies and its time to milk them again, specter wah heal tempest wah catalyst damage while giving quickness wah muh 1 button win wah

SC2 exists if you enjoy 300apm gameplay. you could also just play an actual piano.