Fact or Fiction: Lower Tiers are less skilled than Higher Tiers

[jul.7602]

What? I can't believe these poll result. I doubt most of these people have played in multiple tiers. As a pugmander I see blatantly obvious differences in skill between tiers. Pug blobs on BG and Maguuma are much more deadly than blobs from other servers. Servers like SOS, JQ and YB also field noticeably stronger pug groups than those in t3 and t4. It's not because their server is bigger, I would be willing to bet that a map que of maguuma pugs would destroy any map que from t3 or t4 any day.

As you move up the tier, pugs are much more likely to have meta builds, be on voice coms, have 1+year of experience and to have an actual comp.

[Chaba.5410]

@jul.7602 said:Servers like SOS, JQ and YB also field noticeably stronger pug groups than those in t3 and t4. It's not because their server is bigger, I would be willing to bet that a map que of maguuma pugs would destroy any map que from t3 or t4 any day.

It's like you forget or willfully ignore that SOS and YB were also in T4 at one point due to the way server links work. Maybe next time don't not give any callout for EBG keep and then blame the outnumbered pugs you had for the loss when there was a group able to respond from the borderlands.

[Beezlebub.1538]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:It's an oddly phrased question. The fact is that some of the worst players are in Tier 1 and some of the best in the bottom tier, just like anywhere.

It's more likely that highly-skilled players gravitate towards T1-2 servers, but some prefer to play with friends and don't care which world.

To add on to this, I think that in the past, more skilled players flocked to the higher-tiered servers in hopes of better fights/competition. Nowadays though, it appears they have succumbed to the megablob and are likely worse off on an individual-player basis than those who have to fight and win outnumbered fights.

[jul.7602]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@jul.7602 said:Servers like SOS, JQ and YB also field noticeably stronger pug groups than those in t3 and t4. It's not because their server is bigger, I would be willing to bet that a map que of maguuma pugs would destroy any map que from t3 or t4 any day.

It's like you forget or willfully ignore that SOS and YB were also in T4 at one point due to the way server links work. Maybe next time don't not give any callout for EBG keep and then blame the outnumbered pugs you had for the loss when there was a group able to respond from the borderlands.

How does this address anything that I have said? Obviously servers fluctuate between tiers (believe it or not this actually happened a lot before tiers). But is completely true that almost all of the hardcore zergbusting wvw guilds are concentrated in t1 and t2 with almost none in t4 and very very few in t3. Not suprisingly, their members tend to be regular wvw players, and in some form of another help teach newer players. Lets give a concrete example.Server A10,000 playersThousands of players belonging to one of a dozen of wvw focused guilds.Almost a hundred semi-well experienced pugmandersFew hundred roamersThe rest are ordinary players, with a much higher tendency to be on voice commsHas a strong community with fully functioning discord, teamspeak, website, warchest, streamers ect.

Server B6,000 playersFew thousand players belonging to one of a couple of wvw focused guildsFew dozen semi-well experienced pugmandersFew hundred roamers (maybe more)The rest are ordinary players

Has a functioning ts3, a website nobody uses, semi- active discord, nearly bankrupt warchest, some lose form of leadership with a popular streamer here or there.

I wonder which server has more skilled players?

[Choppy.4183]

@Beezlebub.1538 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:It's an oddly phrased question. The fact is that some of the worst players are in Tier 1 and some of the best in the bottom tier, just like anywhere.

It's more likely that highly-skilled players gravitate towards T1-2 servers, but some prefer to play with friends and don't care which world.

To add on to this, I think that in the past, more skilled players flocked to the higher-tiered servers in hopes of better fights/competition. Nowadays though, it appears they have succumbed to the megablob and are likely worse off on an individual-player basis than those who have to fight and win outnumbered fights.

Even before server linking was a thing, it was fairly common for people interested in roaming and small scale to drop down to lower ranked servers precisely because there were more opportunities to do what they wanted there. Meanwhile, yes, some large-scale oriented people transferred up for the same reason.

[Kovu.7560]

If I were to take a swing in the dark I'd guess that lower tiers generally have a slightly higher proportion of individually skilled players, but the higher tiers still have substantially more skilled players. I only have personal and friend experience to go on, though.And lets be honest, are stealth condi spamming mesmers and thieves, bunker druids/engis, permaheal eles and resistance x2 endure pain permastun nike warriors really a fair measure of skill? I feel like this is the wrong gamemode to be having this conversation.

~ Kovu

[Jeknar.6184]

@Kovu.7560 said:I feel like this is the wrong gamemode to be having this conversation.

~ Kovu

More like the wrong game if you ask me... There is too much hand-holding in GW2 these days to open space to any actual skillful play imo.

[Chaba.5410]

@jul.7602 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@jul.7602 said:Servers like SOS, JQ and YB also field noticeably stronger pug groups than those in t3 and t4. It's not because their server is bigger, I would be willing to bet that a map que of maguuma pugs would destroy any map que from t3 or t4 any day.

It's like you forget or willfully ignore that SOS and YB were also in T4 at one point due to the way server links work. Maybe next time don't not give any callout for EBG keep and then blame the outnumbered pugs you had for the loss when there was a group able to respond from the borderlands.

How does this address anything that I have said? Obviously servers fluctuate between tiers (believe it or not this actually happened a lot

before

tiers). But is completely true that almost all of the hardcore zergbusting wvw guilds are concentrated in t1 and t2 with almost none in t4 and very very few in t3. Not suprisingly, their members tend to be regular wvw players, and in some form of another help teach newer players. Lets give a concrete example.

It addressed your idea that certain servers have stronger pug groups simply for being in a specific tier while I pointed out that those named servers were also in T4 for a time. Now you swap your subject to talk about WvW hardcore guilds that are more prone to transfers than the casual pug on a server. I think you're not sure exactly what you're talking about. Players in organized guild groups want to fight, but they can't when there's no callout because of some personal opinion about pugs who are outnumbered. Good communication is a hallmark of making a strong server team.

[jul.7602]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@jul.7602 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@jul.7602 said:Servers like SOS, JQ and YB also field noticeably stronger pug groups than those in t3 and t4. It's not because their server is bigger, I would be willing to bet that a map que of maguuma pugs would destroy any map que from t3 or t4 any day.

It's like you forget or willfully ignore that SOS and YB were also in T4 at one point due to the way server links work. Maybe next time don't not give any callout for EBG keep and then blame the outnumbered pugs you had for the loss when there was a group able to respond from the borderlands.

How does this address anything that I have said? Obviously servers fluctuate between tiers (believe it or not this actually happened a lot

before

tiers). But is completely true that almost all of the hardcore zergbusting wvw guilds are concentrated in t1 and t2 with almost none in t4 and very very few in t3. Not suprisingly, their members tend to be regular wvw players, and in some form of another help teach newer players. Lets give a concrete example.

It addressed your idea that certain servers have stronger pug groups simply for being in a specific tier while I pointed out that those named servers were also in T4 for a time. Now you swap your subject to talk about WvW hardcore guilds that are more prone to transfers than the casual pug on a server. I think you're not sure exactly what you're talking about. Players in organized guild groups want to fight, but they can't when there's no callout because of some personal opinion about pugs who are outnumbered. Good communication is a hallmark of making a strong server team.

Maguuma and BG, which objectively have the best pugs have never been in t4. Organized groups not being able to fight is 90% of the time an issue with lack of population on that match up. People on all servers and tiers tend to give a call out for major objectives, not that an organized fight guild needs that. You have watchtowers, sentry points, and orange swords.

[Dagger.2035]

I wouldn't say Maguma has the best pugs. I feel like most tags give up quickly since Maguma's pugs want to spread out and attack from range all of the time. If a tag asks for a push most players start back peddling instead. This style of fighting works well when you outnumber everyone in T2, but fails in T1 since the enemy is willing to push with the proper builds and is much more organized.

[Cerby.1069]

Fact: most wvsw players aren't very smart.

That's pretty much all this poll will tell you. They all sit there and win 1vs1's against giant servers they otherwise get run over and lose against all the time. And they sit and say "geeeee they alll suckk!!!!!!! If I had I had zerg of meeee we'd win hands down!!"

The biggest winners are being flooded with the elites of the smaller servers alll the time. It is impossible for them to NOT be better overall players than a smaller server on average has. And that's exactly it, we are talking overall skill level. If you are an elite of your small server, you darn well better be winning all the 1vs1's you come across, cause unless you roam for hours a day the chances of you coming across an elite of the other server wandering around alone....is pretty low. WHy on earth would they wander around alone? You don't seem to realize what it means to be elite in this game. Its like a celebrity going off and living in the woods with only an axe and a lighter.

[travfour.2067]

Have played a equal mix of T4 and T1 due to linkings and guild transferring servers. I can tell you we’d have an easier time as a guild fighting 30 CD of DB as opposed to 30 Mag.

[Ricky.4706]

a large chunk of mag's community, was a community in eve before they played gw2 - similar to what blackgate has, but they came in way after things changed.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

Where's the I don't know button, cause I've been on one server since launch, and we've been T1/T2 for the last 3.5 years, maybe 4.

[DeceiverX.8361]

It used to be the latter for sure, but these days there's no real way to justify playing well since builds carry players and most of the competitive small-scale community quit with HoT. It's also just hard to tell due to links.

The proportion is probably higher on lower-tier servers, but thrle number is certainly higher on high-tiers from the population disparity alone.

Generally kind of a silly thread, though. Skilled play went out the window years ago.

[Reverence.6915]

In terms of zerg play, higher tiers are much better at it.

Roaming though? Ehhhh, about equal across all tiers

[Ogre.3124]

Pre-expansions and early Heart of Thorns the best players/guilds were in Tier 2. In tier 2 the best of the best were on Maguuma (official spvp / gvg retirement server). At the moment BG/Maguuma have the talent; though, PoF's meta skill is irrelevant.

[Titan.3472]

@Ogre.3124 said:Pre-expansions and early Heart of Thorns the best players/guilds were in Tier 2. In tier 2 the best of the best were on Maguuma (official spvp / gvg retirement server). At the moment BG/Maguuma have the talent; though, PoF's meta skill is irrelevant.

Mag Make me giggle... ^^

[Dagger.2035]

I would have to agree that higher tiers are better at zerging, but I've seen a lack of general WvW knowledge from higher tiers from both T1 host servers and guilds which transfered down.

• Higher tier vets not knowing where to place defensive siege in TS. Also a lot of pugs wasting supply by dropping baby siege and siege where it can be easily cleared.
• Higher tier commanders claiming to be vets placing siege on indestructible walls and not realizing it. Or the same people impressed by catas under the Veloka bridge.
• Higher tier players not realizing all objectives can be soloed. And roamers which fight camp NPCs 1 at a time instead of using LOS to group them up.
• Higher tier roamers running glassy gank builds which can't 1v1 and rely on numbers to win. Also a general reluctance to leave the safety of their "roaming" group to fight a single roamer.

The problem is you can't judge lower tiers by the linked servers any more, since linked servers are full of new players and transfers. I hardly recognise the majority of players on Sorrows Furnace. Host servers tend to sum up our skill based on our larger guilds, but most of these guilds are recent transfers.

[Pepper.3901]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I've seen comments like 'you must be on T5 for your build to work' or 'if you were playing like this in T1 or T2, you are going to get killed'.There seems to be a conception that higher tier = more skilled than lower tiers.Is this the truth? or is it only a coverage issue?

I can tell you the poll is flawed.

There are good individual players on every server in every tier.

And that, my friends, is the truth.

A roulette wheel where good players don't share their knowledge or teach others because they are afraid their builds will be nerfed if anyone knows their builds.

Wow, Anet, thanks for a need to hide for some and a total lack of mentoring and care for GW2 integrity.

[Choppy.4183]

@atheria.2837 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I've seen comments like 'you must be on T5 for your build to work' or 'if you were playing like this in T1 or T2, you are going to get killed'.There seems to be a conception that higher tier = more skilled than lower tiers.Is this the truth? or is it only a coverage issue?

I can tell you the poll is flawed.

There are good individual players on every server in every tier.

And that, my friends, is the truth.

A roulette wheel where good players don't share their knowledge or teach others because they are afraid their builds will be nerfed if anyone knows their builds.

Wow, Anet, thanks for a

need to hide

for some and

a total lack of mentoring

and care for GW2 integrity.

Which good players are afraid to share their builds? First, most builds aren't particularly unique or difficult to figure out on your own. Second, most good players I know are always willing to answer questions, teach techniques, etc. if asked and if they have time. Some even make teaching videos.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Choppy.4183 said:

@atheria.2837 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I've seen comments like 'you must be on T5 for your build to work' or 'if you were playing like this in T1 or T2, you are going to get killed'.There seems to be a conception that higher tier = more skilled than lower tiers.Is this the truth? or is it only a coverage issue?

I can tell you the poll is flawed.

There are good individual players on every server in every tier.

And that, my friends, is the truth.

A roulette wheel where good players don't share their knowledge or teach others because they are afraid their builds will be nerfed if anyone knows their builds.

Wow, Anet, thanks for a

need to hide

for some and

a total lack of mentoring

and care for GW2 integrity.

Which good players are afraid to share their builds? First, most builds aren't particularly unique or difficult to figure out on your own. Second, most good players I know are always willing to answer questions, teach techniques, etc. if asked and if they have time. Some even make teaching videos.

Agreed. I also wondered why they poster you quoted would even blame Anet for player behavior...

[Astralporing.1957]

The poll is really flawed, the answer is not binary like this (at the very least, a third option "they are all equal" would be needed)

In general, skill is not dependant on tier - it's entirely possible for a t1 player to be worse skill-wise than someone from the lowest tier. It's a bit more complicated than that, due to at least two factors:

• you can switch servers. Players that are more invested in WvW (as opposed to those that casually visit to do dailies, for example) are more likely to move to a server where the game is more interesting for them. Usually that means moving up the tiers.this is tied to the second point
• tiers are not equally interesting in terms of gameplay. Usually, the lowest tiers are not so interesting as the higher ones. This means that players that stay on them are less likely to become more invested in the gameplay offered by this mode.

On average, players that are invested more in a gamemode, and play more in it become better than those that play only occasionally/casually. Thus, in the end, you're more likely to find more experienced players in higher-tiered servers.

That, though, is just a general trend, and not a hard rule. Again, it's entirely possible for higly skilled players to be on lower tiers. Just as it's possible for them to be on higher tiers. Just that the chances are greater for the latter.

[Israel.7056]

The players in the higher tiers are definitely more practiced at medium to large scale fighting because more of it happens in the higher tiers.

[Jabari.7026]

This is the most stupid thing I’ve read so far… Cos what you saying is tier 1 are more skilled than tier 2. So if a band-Waggoner moves form a tier 4 server to a tier 1 server that player is suddenly way more skilled?!

Player skill ≠ Servers tier.