Scale the life of Bosses with the DPS of the group

[Dayra.7405]

Several Pro Raid/Strike/... complain that content becomes to easy. On the other side they require high dps-builds and complicated rotas from people that aren't able to play them

Here is the solution: Scale the Life of Worldbosses to average-DPS of the group. Best not linear but quadratic, such that the Pro's get a real chalange.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Dayra.7405

[Danikat.8537]

How would this work? My assumption is dynamic scaling while the fight is going on - so if the game 'notices' the bosses health going down quickly because you're doing a lot of damage it's total health goes up to make the fight harder. I suspect that could be done, but it would look to the group like their damage suddenly or gradually dropped during the fight for no apparent reason. I don't think that would have the intended effect, it would look like a bug rather than an authentically harder fight (also it wouldn't really be harder, just longer) and I suspect it would be very easy to manipulate once the new mechanic was known about - if someone stops attacking briefly the DPS will drop, the boss will adjust to the lower damage and then that person can join in again and briefly do more damage before the scaling kicks in. If a group can work out a complex rotation I'm sure they'd be able to swap roles or stop/start attacking to take advantage of the scaling as well.

The other option I can think of is to adjust the fight in the time between the group entering the instance and the fight actually starting, but I'm not sure how that could be done accurately. How much damage you do depends on your rotation - how you use your skills as much or more than which ones you have so it can't simply be based on the builds a group has but I don't know what else it could be based on.

Also again that would be easy to abuse, if the scaling was based on what skills (or traits, weapons etc.) you've got equipped that would likely need to be set up manually by Anet, based on currently popular meta builds. Then players could simply swap some or all of the relevant skills for something else. Players can shift the meta faster than Anet can reprogram encounters to respond to it.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Danikat.8537

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Imagine a bug where the boss health kept scaling up to become unkillable. 

[Dyllethia.5786]

As danikat mentioned: this only increases the time it takes to kill; not the actual difficulty. The fight just feels like a training golem at that point. This is how they tried to "fix" this problem before when people were clearing dungeons and fractals too fast in the day and the backlash was sever. We would take way longer on already biking fights. 

 

What the hard core end game players want are mechanics that force people to actually learn to play the game.  What would need to happen is new mechanics being added to fights if certain dps thresholds were met. When you start clearing 50% of a bosses health in x amount of minutes new mechanics start appearing.

 

In the end, however, this only works for instanced content. You put any of this, your suggestion as well, in the open world and every event would fail. This game has too many casuals to make open world any harder than it already is. Dragons End being a good example.

[Dayra.7405]

13 minutes ago, Vyriis.6258 said:

As danikat mentioned: this only increases the time it takes to kill; not the actual difficulty.

Thats wrong. Currently a lot of boss mechanics do not happen to high DPS groups because phase changes/dead happens before.

13 minutes ago, Vyriis.6258 said:

in the open world and every event would fail. This game has too many casuals to make open world any harder than it already is.

Maybe you can explain, in my understanding casuals should have low DPS, which would reduce the life making it equally difficult than high DPS.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Dayra.7405

[Cyninja.2954]

So let's think this through for just 10 seconds:

 

1. boss life scales with dps (not sure how you would want to measure this, the only metric one could use is incoming damage to boss I guess). The game now scales boss life up to accommodated for higher dps.

 

2. players running high dps now see their relative damage impact done properly out-scaled by the bosses hitpoints increase

 

3. players not doing high damage see their relative damage impact drastically decrease because they where already doing minimal damage to begin with but relative to the new higher hitpoints their contribution shrinks even more

 

4. taking the lessons from 1-3 it now becomes best practice for everyone to run as little damage as possible so that everyone contributing has as high of relative impact as possible and preventing the boss from scaling hit point wise beyond a point where a majority of players contribute next to nothing.

 

Yeah, didn't think this idea through did we now?

EDIT:

and before this goes any further: this principle also applies to any and all content where disparity in performance exists. Having that 1 top dps do far more than all the other squad/group memebers? That's now a detriment because he is up-scaling the boss more than the rest.

Having that 1 super low dps performer in your group? Better kick them because they are not keeping up with the scaling of the boss set by the other high performers.

Are you using healers/supports which are not bringing as much damage as possible too? Better switch to other healer/support setups because you will be holding back the group.

Scaling around dps (aka output) by design leads to a necessity to normalize every-ones performance around the same level. Not something you would want in place in this game right now.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Dayra.7405]

How this is implemented, and how strong the effect is, I don't care, that's game design by anet, the point of this post is to bring in this idea.

 

 

[Fuchslein.8639]

How is it  that so many people think "too easy" means a Boss needs more HP ...

yeah, everyone Likes HP-sponges. Doing the Same Thing for 5 instead of 2min is so much more fun :D. *Sarcasm Off*

Edited November 30, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[Cyninja.2954]

1 minute ago, Dayra.7405 said:

How this is implemented, and how strong the effect is, I don't care, that's game design by anet, the point of this post is to bring in this idea.

 

 

and the comment I left explained how it's flawed by design.

You don't scale content by output because it causes necessity for normalization of output across all factors.

Normalization of output puts pressure on group compositions in this case.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Dayra.7405]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

and the comment I left explained how it's flawed by design.

No as you assume specific implementations in your comment.

On the other side I am not surprised, that DPS(-meter)-fans don't like that idea 🙂

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, Dayra.7405 said:

No as you assume specific implementations in your comment.

On the other side I am not surprised, that DPS(-meter)-fans don't like that idea 🙂

 

I assumed one of the only ways your idea could be implemented. It also doesn't matter WHAT I assume given that your idea can be summarized with: scale around output. Which is why it's a bad idea.

[Dayra.7405]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

scale around output.

You could scale around statistics, this player in mean did in the last month 35k DPS, sum it up for the group , and scale the boss, 

This way it doesn't depend on your current (manipulated) performance, but your overal DPS-performance

Or it can be anything else, that a game designer imagines, that doesn't allow your current manipulation idea.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Dayra.7405

[Cyninja.2954]

2 minutes ago, Dayra.7405 said:

You could scale around statistics, this player in mean did in the last month 35k DPS, sum it up for the group , and scale the boss, 

This way it doesn't depend on your current (manipulated) performance, but your overal skill or anything else, that a game designer imagines.

Listen, any scaling around output will result in the same pressure no matter how much you mask it up or how creative you get in trying to get to the scaling values. In the end it results in the same: better output scales more, lower output scales less, having these discrepancies in your group will cause issues.

The irony here is you're not even realizing that: yes, this would make content for equalized and similar groups more interesting/challenging (say all those speedrun groups where every one of the 6 similar dps are within a few dps difference) or high end raid/strike groups.

It's a terrible idea to implement for EVERYONE else.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Dayra.7405]

6 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Having that 1 top dps do far more than all the other squad/group memebers? That's now a detriment because he is up-scaling the boss more than the rest.

Would be funny reversal to today, if you have to show your DPS at start and get kicked if it is to high, isn't it? 😁

But this would only be an issue if you scale with the max dps player, not if you scale with the average of all players-

Edited November 30, 2022 by Dayra.7405

[Danikat.8537]

41 minutes ago, Dayra.7405 said:

Thats wrong. Currently a lot of boss mechanics do not happen to high DPS groups because phase changes/dead happens before.

If that's the problem you're trying to fix then I think something that directly addresses it would be better than adding scaling based on players damage, because as we've been discussing that's far too easy for players to manipulate.

Maybe make it so those mechanics are triggered when the boss gets to a certain health percentage and/or when a certain amount of time has passed. It might also help to make the boss invulnerable for a few seconds while attacking. Not long enough to negatively impact slower/lower DPS groups but enough that high DPS groups have to deal with the attack instead of just burning it down while it's attacking.

Maybe even add new mechanics which trigger if the boss reaches a certain health percentage before a timer runs out. All the numbers here are random and I have no idea if they're accurate to anything in the game, but say for example Anet expects a fight to take 10 minutes on average. If you get the boss down to 50% health in under 3 minutes (so you're likely to finish in 6 minutes instead of 10) an additional mechanic triggers which makes the fight harder, like the boss gets an extra attack or more enemies join the fight. (This could happen multiple times, it doesn't have to be just one timer/bonus effect per boss and ones less likely to trigger could be even harder.)

That's more interesting than just adding more health so you have to keep doing the same thing for a bit longer, and gives skilled groups a choice: they can learn to deal with the new mechanic or they can adjust their damage output to make sure they don't trigger it. Different groups might prefer one method over the other, and it would probably be interesting for those who like speed clears to see which is actually quicker.

But also if your problem is that some groups demand incredibly high DPS which most players can't reach and it then makes the fight too easy the immediate quick fix is to join a less demanding group. That way you get a more enjoyable fight without having to hit the top benchmarks.

[Fuchslein.8639]

24 minutes ago, Dayra.7405 said:

Would be funny reversal to today, if you have to show your DPS at start and get kicked if it is to high, isn't it? 😁

Funny how youre whole Threads hovers around insulting a Playerbase you don't Like...

[Ryuk.6840]

11 hours ago, Vyriis.6258 said:

What the hard core end game players want are mechanics that force people to actually learn to play the game.  What would need to happen is new mechanics being added to fights if certain dps thresholds were met. When you start clearing 50% of a bosses health in x amount of minutes new mechanics start appearing.

This is a nice idea !

 

 

11 hours ago, Dayra.7405 said:

Here is the solution: Scale the Life of Worldbosses to average-DPS of the group. Best not linear but quadratic, such that the Pro's get a real chalange.

 

We could add an additional "hex" mechanic in each attack .Passively you gain one "hex" , every 1 sec  and by executing any attack you deplete it , doing  1000 damage . What the user  actually  see is a new  HP bar that is depleted by each "hex" , while you can  keep seeing high dps numbers (for RP/progression  reasons)  by damaging the hidden hp that have tremendous Regeneration's .

Now that the boss hp/players attack are normalized , Bosses gain Armor Penetration so it doesn't matter if you have  Berserker or Soldier

Edited November 30, 2022 by Ryuk.6840

[Cuks.8241]

This sounds like a really strange idea. I assume you would only scale it up because otherwise this becomes even worse.

If you scale it linearly it would take any incentive to improve out of all fights as any additional performance beyond minimal viable becomes completely meaningless. This does not make fight easier or harder just time normalised.

If you scale it quadratic this would actually become strangely funny broken. Now the best performance is a minimal viable dps dot on the curve . So now the requirements for groups would be 250 LI, 8.5 k sustained DPS with max 0.5k DPS deviation. 😄 Oh you went over 9k DPS or below 8k DPS, kick the scrub. 

[Infusion.7149]

If you're trying to fix a benchmark DPS disparity to the average player this isn't it.
There's people running blood magic reapers , greatsword mirages, rifle warriors, and death magic core necros.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[DaFishBob.6518]

Make boss life scale with DPS? So the kill times become pretty much the same no matter the group composition? Sounds like you might as well remove the life bar and just make this a timed event.

[Erick Alastor.3917]

Imagine adding more complex mechanics instead of scaling boss health.
That would be cool.
Exp players would have to choose between holding some dps making the fight harder (not being able to bypass phases), or dealing with unusual extra mechanics.
The challenge would be finding the perfect balance.
Average players may stumble upon those mecs from time to time, but most of the times would be stuck struggling with low dps and long regular phases.

[Dyllethia.5786]

5 hours ago, Dayra.7405 said:

Thats wrong. Currently a lot of boss mechanics do not happen to high DPS groups because phase changes/dead happens before.

You say it's wrong, but it's factual. Increasing HP only makes the encounter longer; not challenging. This has been proven already when they decided it would be a good idea to just increase fractal boss health back in the day.  It was just more time spent doing the same mechanics we'd been doing.  Does higher dps allow us to skip mechanics?  Absolutely.  Mechanics we've dealt with so many times  that going through them now doesn't matter because it's like riding a bike.  You may not have done them in a while but as soon as you see them it's a natural function that you don't really think about.  Not a challenge in the least.

Thus why I suggest adding more mechanics if X amount of health is lost in Y amount of time.  This would essentially be turning encounters into CMs without having to specifically switch to CM.  Again, though, this can only be done in instanced content. You try to do anything to open world and you're just asking for casuals to not play your content. 

6 hours ago, Dayra.7405 said:

Several Pro Raid/Strike/... complain that content becomes to easy. On the other side they require high dps-builds and complicated rotas from people that aren't able to play them

Here is the solution: Scale the Life of Worldbosses to average-DPS of the group. Best not linear but quadratic, such that the Pro's get a real chalange.

You start your post with "Pro raid/strike people complain....", but then as soon as we start telling you what we're actually looking for you're telling us we're wrong and that "Of course you'd be against it".  As mentioned earlier: Increasing HP to "make content more challenging" has been done before and us "pro's" know this and don't want to see it happen again for any game mode.

5 hours ago, Dayra.7405 said:

Maybe you can explain, in my understanding casuals should have low DPS, which would reduce the life making it equally difficult than high DPS.

The problem is is you're looking at -- Taking longer = more challenging -- It's not.  You're also probably not thinking about what most casual players are like vs what most raiders are like.  Casuals are perfectly fine running Soldiers gear (Power + Tough + Vit) while sitting on a Ranger with a bear hitting all their skills off cd thinking they're doing their job as a dps.  While a raider (who, by the way, is probably running a dps meter [apparently not the people you want to talk to here]) can see that their own dps is slightly low while they're pushing their full rotation in Berserker/Vipers gear at 30k+ (vs the casual who's barely above 12k).

As I said in my original reply, and others have pointed out, it would be more of a "challenge" to add more mechanics if thresholds are met. As I also mentioned, though, this wouldn't fly in open world due to the fact that casuals don't want more mechanics to deal with (half the time dying to highly visible, telegraphed, attacks).  Soo - Won (Dragons End) opens with an insta down AoE that takes like 5 seconds to actually go off that still downs half the squad.  Dragons end also fails half the time because there isn't enough dps, even though the top 10 players are doing twice the amount of the next 20.  So, sure! Let's add more health because the top 10s dps is forcing the average up so now it's going to fail even more.

5 hours ago, Dayra.7405 said:

No as you assume specific implementations in your comment.

On the other side I am not surprised, that DPS(-meter)-fans don't like that idea 🙂

 DPS meter "fans" don't like this idea because it makes no difference to us dps wise; you're just wasting our time at this point.  We'll do the same amount of damage whether the boss has 140 million hp or 200 million hp.  No different from switching the training golem  from Weak to Crazy Strong.  At a certain point a raider isn't even going to notice most mechanics that go on because it's second nature and the only thing we're worried about is pushing our dps to make the encounter go by faster; so why force us to stay longer?  Give us more hurdles to jump over in our sprint to the finish (And I do mean hurdles; none of that insta death bs that they like to toss in).

[Sobx.1758]

wow, what even is this idea supposed to be 🤦‍♂️

Fill the squad with full hp/toughness healers, the hp of the boss adjusts so it's a sure kill with next to no risk involved with doing almost anything within the encounter. Not sure there's a way -or reason- to sugarcoat it: this idea is just pure nonsense going against having actually meaningful encounters in a game. If dps options are overperforming due to power creep, pull them back. That's all.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Urud.4925]

I'm a bit puzzled. Maybe the OP could elaborate/explain better, but my understanding is that the more damage you do, the more the boss' HP will increase, leading to have more or less (if the scale works well) the same time to kill a boss. Why should someone care to have a decent build and put some effort, if the boss' HP would scale down using autoattack?

Currently the fight (in general open world or instanced group, like the battle of Lion's Arch) becomes harder with more players, because among the crowd, there are people who just don't care and use autoattack, but we can still organize a smaller group for a better performance. And we can still carry some friend, for example a new player in a dungeon. If the boss' stats change with our dps... there would be no difference between a good player and a bot, or between running in ascended gear or naked. What am I missing?

[disco.9302]

17 hours ago, Dayra.7405 said:

How this is implemented, and how strong the effect is, I don't care, that's game design by anet, the point of this post is to bring in this idea.

 

 

A terrible idea whichever way you look at it. 

With high DPS increasing hp the fight is not harder, just longer. Besides which, you haven't suggested any incentive if the rewards for the encounter stay the same.