Please fix warrior

[Crab Fear.8623]

On 12/27/2022 at 6:35 PM, Razor.6392 said:

Dude, you aren't dodging every ability lmao.

Dodge bulls charge, shield bash, rush, whirlwind, hammer stun (yes I'm listing more than 3 weps), full counter, arcing slice, eviscerate and a long etc. All those are abilities you DO NOT want to get hit by, because they do 6-9k damage OR setup a 6-9k damage nuke. All on very short cds, with gap closers integrated more often than not.

And no teleports or stealth.

Honestly, the level of skill for players in this game has dropped to the depths of hell.

There is no way it can recover.

[Kuma.1503]

Tbh, I've been playing a fair bit of hammer spell breaker lately. 

I remembered back to to when they gave Hammer it's damage on CC back, hopped on my warrior. Looked at the traits, and all I could think was "Holy synergies".

Just by CCing people I can do all of the following:

Gain Quickness 

Gain Stability

rip boons (no prot 4 u)

apply weakness and bleeding 

gain adrenaline

Gain stacking power, precision, and ferocity buff

Empower Fierce Blow to crit for 7-10k

 

It's very fun to play. Being permenantly immune to CC in the same way that the old flamethrower scrapper was while deleting anyone once they run out of stunbreaks.

Plus the funny hammer bonk sounds just cause me to bust out laughing every time I 100-0 someone in a stunlock. 

 

Just like the FT scrapper of old, It gets a lot of value out of very few actions. It's permentantly CC immune, and it has the perfect toolset to bully people who are new to the game. Rifle Mech algo got nerfed for far less. 

 

That said, I would like to stop nerfing builds just because new players get bullied by them. Vindicating as it might be as an engi seeing another class get the the complaint treatment for a change, we should let people learn how to deal with this stuff eventually.

We live in a world where virtuosos have more aegis than a guardian plus distortion and catalyst is... everything that calatyst is. The tools to deal with this build are out there. 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Zekent.3652]

On 12/27/2022 at 6:35 PM, Razor.6392 said:

Dude, you aren't dodging every ability lmao.

Dodge bulls charge, shield bash, rush, whirlwind, hammer stun (yes I'm listing more than 3 weps), full counter, arcing slice, eviscerate and a long etc. All those are abilities you DO NOT want to get hit by, because they do 6-9k damage OR setup a 6-9k damage nuke. All on very short cds, with gap closers integrated more often than not.

Don't act like dodge is the only way to prevent damage.

[Arklite.4013]

On 12/27/2022 at 5:35 PM, Razor.6392 said:

Dude, you aren't dodging every ability lmao.

Dodge bulls charge, shield bash, rush, whirlwind, hammer stun (yes I'm listing more than 3 weps), full counter, arcing slice, eviscerate and a long etc. All those are abilities you DO NOT want to get hit by, because they do 6-9k damage OR setup a 6-9k damage nuke. All on very short cds, with gap closers integrated more often than not.

Not to hop into this crazy discussion at this point, but Warrior gets absolutely trashed by blinds

[bethekey.8314]

4 hours ago, Arklite.4013 said:

Not to hop into this crazy discussion at this point, but Warrior gets absolutely trashed by blinds

Doesn't Warrior have some of the highest on-demand access to resistance in the game?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

People unable to tolerate Warrior playing the game without being free for more than 3 months rerun, because:

• they can't respond to half the bullkitten they put warriors through despite having more buttons to respond to it
• are acting like someone running out of stunbreaks wouldn't get deleted faster and from further away by any other build in the meta (Untamed, Chrono, Ele, Holo, Vindi, Deadeye, Guardian -and- Harbinger will nuke you the moment you run out of stunbreaks, also; and they all can do that with teleport setups or from stealth/across the map)

let's go.  Something something equality with an identical twin named oppression. If Warrior being able to stop you from playing the game (once you have pressed all your buttons) makes you this upset, imagine how garbage it was for warriors that had to let you play it up to this point. 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

People unable to tolerate Warrior playing the game without being free for more than 3 months rerun, because:

• they can't respond to half the bullkitten they put warriors through despite having more buttons to respond to it
• are acting like someone running out of stunbreaks wouldn't get deleted faster and from further away by any other build in the meta (Untamed, Chrono, Ele, Holo, Vindi, Deadeye, Guardian -and- Harbinger will nuke you the moment you run out of stunbreaks, also; and they all can do that with teleport setups or from stealth/across the map)

let's go.  Something something equality with an identical twin named oppression. If Warrior being able to stop you from playing the game (once you have pressed all your buttons) makes you this upset, imagine how garbage it was for warriors that had to let you play it up to this point. 

The problem

is

full counter.

And that is it. The problem is not "having damage", the problem is having one of the strongest defensive skills in the game for no cost every 8s.

[Myror.7521]

@Terrorhuz.4695 letz better say. For no cost since the Hammer trait that gains 7 Adrenalin back in comb with burst Mastery. This means a full counter or cc that actually Hits gain ya. Swiftness ,stability (with dmg boost) and instantly 100% Adrenalin refresh. 

 

So the problem is not full counter itself but more like the traitcomb that made counterplay nearly impossible.

 

And yes full counter is a Problem for mes but to be fair spellbraker is the only warr spec that actually have any chance against a mes since all its invus Blocks and maybe blinds (maybe cause only when traited)

[Terrorhuz.4695]

3 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Terrorhuz.4695 spellbraker is the only warr spec that actually have any chance against a mes since all its invus Blocks and maybe blinds (maybe cause only when traited)

It's not a matter of mesmer, other warrior specs do nothing against everybody. Would you bring a berserker against a catalyst?

[Khalisto.5780]

Even as an ele main ive been performing better with warrior and i play with 170 ping, which is not ideal for the cc builds. But that condi spellbreaker is very strong, I can hold nodes for ages even against players that i know are far better mechanically than me and even survive the plus. Against weaker players is not uncommon surviving 1v3s kiting and 1v2s on node. 

[Justforvisit.3709]

Hammerstun Warrior DEFINETIVELY needs a BIG fix / nerf.

I had 4 matches in a row in Gold 1 Tier just now where one single Stunhammer Warrior easily destroyed the whole opponent team effortless, despite trying my best equipping as many stability and stunbreak skills as possible, with zero to none effect. Since you only have so many Stabilty / Stunbreak-Skills until they go on cooldown while Stunhammer can use endless CC on you.

Really, great balancing, Arenanet, great balancing, as usual.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

17 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

The problem

is

full counter.

And that is it. The problem is not "having damage", the problem is having one of the strongest defensive skills in the game for no cost every 8s.

It's not according to this thread. Look around you. You're like the only person that has a hangup with full counter. Everyone else is running the "look at all the 7 damage critical skills we have to dodge" angle. 

Quote

Since you only have so many Stabilty / Stunbreak-Skills until they go on cooldown while Stunhammer can use endless CC on you.

For example. 

Quote

It's not a matter of mesmer, other warrior specs do nothing against everybody. Would you bring a berserker against a catalyst?

If they ever manage to fix berserker so it isn't free, we will be right back in this argument again because:

• zerker relies just as much, if not more so, than spellbreaker on cc to be effective
• skill reworks at this point would require it to do complaint-worthy levels of damage if not cc. 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Dr Meta.3158]

The only problem on warrior is full counter. Everything else is fine, even the resistance spam.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

The only problem on warrior is full counter. Everything else is fine, even the resistance spam.

Alright we got two. Fair enough. 

[Crab Fear.8623]

6 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

The only problem on warrior is full counter. Everything else is fine, even the resistance spam.

No, go away Dr, your diagnosis is innacurate.

The problem is inability to adapt, carrying elements of your own class, and the lack of basic skill knowledge.

When did POF come out? 2017

We all figured out to avoid it 5 years ago, your opinion is opposite?

 

3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Alright we got two. Fair enough. 

Nha, the only problem with war is that players are suddenly having to use 3 braincells instead of 2 now

[Terrorhuz.4695]

10 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

It's not according to this thread

Ok but they're wrong.

Once again, the problem has never been the damage IMHO, nor the setups to land said damage. The problem comes when your build gives tool where some classes are just mechanically unable to damage back.

- That was the problem with thief (oh yeah you spam blind and stealth there's literally no counterplay to this, I guess you're just that kittening good)
- That was the problem with mirage (15s evade\invuln in a row, sure why not)
- That was the problem with vindicator (15 minutes of evades into blocks into evades into blocks into more evades)
- That is the problem with current scepter ele (a gazillion ranged blinds and superspeed)
- That was the problem with old dragontrapper (perma superspeed and perma stealth, some classes just CAN'T do anything to hit back)
- That was the problem with bladesworn (ok, it DID take damage but it didn't matter anyway because the bugged stab prevented any retaliation)
- That was and is the problem with hammer cata (fortified earth into earth shield into hammer block into shocking aura into magnetic aura into fortified earth again)
- That will also be the problem with virtuoso, should the unblockable shatter ever be fixed (distortion into block into distortion into block), and will be the problem on chronobunker as soon as catalyst and warrior will become less bloated (block into evade into block into evade into weakness into more weakness into prot into block into block into GRAVITY WELL).

Spellbreaker currently has that with full counter. And we do know full counter IS the problem because I don't see any hammering bladesworn or berserker or whatever; hammer is good, but those specs do not have full counter and thus they're not currently problematic.
Free stab + resistance on dodge + evades on GS\bull charge\sigil of energy proccing every 4s, that's the starting point: give it full counter, you effectively create a very airtight defensive rotation (with extreme damage and half of that is unblockable), on top of that, mending will deny any damage you somehow manage to get through. It is currently meaningless to try facing a spellbreaker rn; it's not as broken as (say) vindicator on release, but it's obscenely overperforming.

For spellbreaker, those are the things I'd do
1) Fix the bugged cd reduction on burst skills; it's some 30% instead of the intended 15%.
2) Full counter needs the fattest nerf, I will die on this on this hill. Something like doubling the cooldown if it doesn't proc; a spellbreaker that uses full counter recklessly needs a big window to get punished, just like a ranger whose pet gets killed has a big window to get punished, just like a mesmer using their distortion recklessly now has some 50s to wait before it's up again.
3) A particle effect to better differentiate dagger2 from dagger burst.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 @Terrorhuz.4695

Just wanted to toss my 2 cents in here:

 

I think there's actually 2 different "pain points" that people are hitting on in this thread.

 

1.) Spellbreaker is really strong right now.

Terrorhuz, you're right; it is because of FC--but it's more nuanced than that.  It's not the skill itself, but the skill itself PLUS everything that's attached to it.  I wrote this in a separate thread:

Quote

@Lan Deathrider.5910 is right; the correct action to rein in SpB is to fix the bug on FC so that its CD is 10.2CD.  That represents a 16.5% nerf not only to FC, but also to all that FC provides/triggers.  A non-exhaustive list:

 

-An evade, source of Stab, and 1.5s daze on FC itself

-refreshes burst skills (a massive part of SpB's offense)

-triggers burst related traits, most notably Adrenal Healing and Cleansing Ire in the current meta

-applies weakness (cull the weak), immobilize (no escape), and slow and cripple (slow counter)

-Grants adrenaline if you are running Merciless Hammer

-Grants resistance (revenge counter) or applies magebane tether

 

So ALL of that is being nerfed by 16.5% with one simple change.

 

Do. Not. Nerf. Core. Traits. Because. Of. One. E-spec.

 

In short, Spellbreaker optimizes Warrior's trait lines and burst mechanics--in addition to FC being a strong evade/counter mechanic in its own right.  Unfortunately, other warrior specs aren't able to maximize the benefits of their own traitlines and mechanics, which is why we have the current situation of Spellbreaker being A/S tier and everything else being B tier or below.  

 

Because of all of the benefits/"power budget" that runs through FC, even a relatively small nerf to its CD will be significant.  If they decide to nerf SpB, that's what they should do.  Otherwise, they will nuke it into the ground like they did with Bladesworn.  That's not balance; that's overkill.

 

2.) People don't like being stunlocked, and Warrior is fundamentally built around CC.

I'd go so far as to say that Warrior's main theme as a profession is to prevent opponents  from playing the game.  See: Hammer, Mace, Shield, every physical skill (except mending), Full Counter, Headbutt, Unyielding Dragon....  Warrior appears designed from the ground up to be a CC heavy (and CC-reliant) profession.  As a consequence, whenever Warrior is buffed to a point where it is viable, it is also buffed to a point where it can seriously impair other player's ability to play the game.  And people don't like that.

 

I don't think there's an easy answer to this problem, not without reworking significant chunks of warrior to emphasize different playstyles that don't rely on CC.  In a perfect world, I think non-CC weapons like sword, longbow, rifle, OH dagger, etc, could use some significant attention to create alternative playstyles to encourage people to move away from "endless CC builds."

 

On the other hand, I do think that a lot of players simply need to learn how to react to Warrior's extremely telegraphed attacks.  It's actually pretty frustrating to play as a hammer warrior against anyone who knows what they're doing, because all of your attacks scream "Here I come!" and provide ample opportunity to dodge, block, blind, apply stab, etc.  So it's probably a bit of both reworks to Warrior and the community needing to learn how to play around Warrior that is  needed.

 

 

[Zuko.7132]

On 12/30/2022 at 6:41 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

Tbh, I've been playing a fair bit of hammer spell breaker lately. 

I remembered back to to when they gave Hammer it's damage on CC back, hopped on my warrior. Looked at the traits, and all I could think was "Holy synergies".

Just by CCing people I can do all of the following:

Gain Quickness 

Gain Stability

rip boons (no prot 4 u)

apply weakness and bleeding 

gain adrenaline

Gain stacking power, precision, and ferocity buff

Empower Fierce Blow to crit for 7-10k

 

It's very fun to play. Being permenantly immune to CC in the same way that the old flamethrower scrapper was while deleting anyone once they run out of stunbreaks.

Plus the funny hammer bonk sounds just cause me to bust out laughing every time I 100-0 someone in a stunlock. 

 

Just like the FT scrapper of old, It gets a lot of value out of very few actions. It's permentantly CC immune, and it has the perfect toolset to bully people who are new to the game. Rifle Mech algo got nerfed for far less. 

 

That said, I would like to stop nerfing builds just because new players get bullied by them. Vindicating as it might be as an engi seeing another class get the the complaint treatment for a change, we should let people learn how to deal with this stuff eventually.

We live in a world where virtuosos have more aegis than a guardian plus distortion and catalyst is... everything that calatyst is. The tools to deal with this build are out there. 

You can only do all of the following if you run defense, strength, spellbreaker. That’s not a viable build due to losing discipline.

[Dr Meta.3158]

17 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Ok but they're wrong.

Once again, the problem has never been the damage IMHO, nor the setups to land said damage. The problem comes when your build gives tool where some classes are just mechanically unable to damage back.

- That was the problem with thief (oh yeah you spam blind and stealth there's literally no counterplay to this, I guess you're just that kittening good)
- That was the problem with mirage (15s evade\invuln in a row, sure why not)
- That was the problem with vindicator (15 minutes of evades into blocks into evades into blocks into more evades)
- That is the problem with current scepter ele (a gazillion ranged blinds and superspeed)
- That was the problem with old dragontrapper (perma superspeed and perma stealth, some classes just CAN'T do anything to hit back)
- That was the problem with bladesworn (ok, it DID take damage but it didn't matter anyway because the bugged stab prevented any retaliation)
- That was and is the problem with hammer cata (fortified earth into earth shield into hammer block into shocking aura into magnetic aura into fortified earth again)
- That will also be the problem with virtuoso, should the unblockable shatter ever be fixed (distortion into block into distortion into block), and will be the problem on chronobunker as soon as catalyst and warrior will become less bloated (block into evade into block into evade into weakness into more weakness into prot into block into block into GRAVITY WELL).

Spellbreaker currently has that with full counter. And we do know full counter IS the problem because I don't see any hammering bladesworn or berserker or whatever; hammer is good, but those specs do not have full counter and thus they're not currently problematic.
Free stab + resistance on dodge + evades on GS\bull charge\sigil of energy proccing every 4s, that's the starting point: give it full counter, you effectively create a very airtight defensive rotation (with extreme damage and half of that is unblockable), on top of that, mending will deny any damage you somehow manage to get through. It is currently meaningless to try facing a spellbreaker rn; it's not as broken as (say) vindicator on release, but it's obscenely overperforming.

For spellbreaker, those are the things I'd do
1) Fix the bugged cd reduction on burst skills; it's some 30% instead of the intended 15%.
2) Full counter needs the fattest nerf, I will die on this on this hill. Something like doubling the cooldown if it doesn't proc; a spellbreaker that uses full counter recklessly needs a big window to get punished, just like a ranger whose pet gets killed has a big window to get punished, just like a mesmer using their distortion recklessly now has some 50s to wait before it's up again.
3) A particle effect to better differentiate dagger2 from dagger burst.

Yep this is it entirely.

All summed down to incessant need, not desire, need to create anti counterplay in this game. With this trend that has been ever present with this company along with the trend of taking something underperforming, buffing it into absurdity, waiting until people grow a large attachment to it and then nerfing it into complete unviability to be left forgotten from then on.

All of that along with the idea of mechanist. Some class designed for the "disabled" with the same notion of getting a bunch of people attached to it and then nerfing it into being one of if not the clunkiest mess in the game...

It really makes me wonder if sadism is a big thing here. I'm really quite curious.

[Razor.6392]

On 12/30/2022 at 8:37 PM, Crab Fear.8623 said:

And no teleports or stealth.

Honestly, the level of skill for players in this game has dropped to the depths of hell.

There is no way it can recover.

Why do people think teleports and stealth are must haves for classes to be broken? Have historically only thief and mesmer been broken? Lmfao (yes genius I know more classes might have situational access to stealth or blinks).

Defending such a brainless class with short cc / nuke / mitigation cooldowns while it has the highest defense and health is hilarious.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Razor.6392

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

On 12/31/2022 at 11:51 PM, Crab Fear.8623 said:

Nha, the only problem with war is that players are suddenly having to use 3 braincells instead of 2 now

This. People need to relearn how to fight against hammer and/or change their builds.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

On 1/1/2023 at 1:41 PM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 @Terrorhuz.4695

Just wanted to toss my 2 cents in here:

 

I think there's actually 2 different "pain points" that people are hitting on in this thread.

 

1.) Spellbreaker is really strong right now.

Terrorhuz, you're right; it is because of FC--but it's more nuanced than that.  It's not the skill itself, but the skill itself PLUS everything that's attached to it.  I wrote this in a separate thread:

 

In short, Spellbreaker optimizes Warrior's trait lines and burst mechanics--in addition to FC being a strong evade/counter mechanic in its own right.  Unfortunately, other warrior specs aren't able to maximize the benefits of their own traitlines and mechanics, which is why we have the current situation of Spellbreaker being A/S tier and everything else being B tier or below.  

 

Because of all of the benefits/"power budget" that runs through FC, even a relatively small nerf to its CD will be significant.  If they decide to nerf SpB, that's what they should do.  Otherwise, they will nuke it into the ground like they did with Bladesworn.  That's not balance; that's overkill.

 

2.) People don't like being stunlocked, and Warrior is fundamentally built around CC.

I'd go so far as to say that Warrior's main theme as a profession is to prevent opponents  from playing the game.  See: Hammer, Mace, Shield, every physical skill (except mending), Full Counter, Headbutt, Unyielding Dragon....  Warrior appears designed from the ground up to be a CC heavy (and CC-reliant) profession.  As a consequence, whenever Warrior is buffed to a point where it is viable, it is also buffed to a point where it can seriously impair other player's ability to play the game.  And people don't like that.

 

I don't think there's an easy answer to this problem, not without reworking significant chunks of warrior to emphasize different playstyles that don't rely on CC.  In a perfect world, I think non-CC weapons like sword, longbow, rifle, OH dagger, etc, could use some significant attention to create alternative playstyles to encourage people to move away from "endless CC builds."

 

On the other hand, I do think that a lot of players simply need to learn how to react to Warrior's extremely telegraphed attacks.  It's actually pretty frustrating to play as a hammer warrior against anyone who knows what they're doing, because all of your attacks scream "Here I come!" and provide ample opportunity to dodge, block, blind, apply stab, etc.  So it's probably a bit of both reworks to Warrior and the community needing to learn how to play around Warrior that is  needed.

 

 

^ This ^

Fixing the CD reduction bug on FC is enough to balance it. Beyond that what warrior needs is for Anet to make it so that warrior no longer needs to rely on CCs to land its damage. You'd see less hard CC as a result or could even reduce it some without crippling the profession that was only recently buffed back into relevance. 

[Zagerus.8675]

No one really cared about Spellbreaker until they buffed traits in the Defense traitline to try and help Berserker have more viable options for sidenoding. Spellbreaker uses those traits more effectively, so target/retailor the newly changed traits instead of gimping Strength Spellbreaker - which is completely in line and has plenty of holes that can be used to kill someone who is careless with their resources.

[Crab Fear.8623]

On 1/1/2023 at 9:05 AM, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

O\

2) Full counter needs the fattest nerf, I will die on this on this hill. 

<pve

[Hotride.2187]

6 hours ago, Zagerus.8675 said:

so target/retailor the newly changed traits instead of gimping Strength Spellbreaker - which is completely in line and has plenty of holes that can be used to kill someone who is careless with their resources.

I really hope they do that, instead of messing with spb itself. I dont want to be forced to switch to defense.

I'm sure just ICDs for spb will be enough on the defense burst CC and dodge traits.