Please fix warrior

[Cait Sith.4650]

14 hours ago, Zagerus.8675 said:

No one really cared about Spellbreaker until they buffed traits in the Defense traitline to try and help Berserker have more viable options for sidenoding. Spellbreaker uses those traits more effectively, so target/retailor the newly changed traits instead of gimping Strength Spellbreaker - which is completely in line and has plenty of holes that can be used to kill someone who is careless with their resources.

I'm deeply sorry about this.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

19 hours ago, Zagerus.8675 said:

No one really cared about Spellbreaker until they buffed traits in the Defense traitline to try and help Berserker have more viable options for sidenoding. Spellbreaker uses those traits more effectively, so target/retailor the newly changed traits instead of gimping Strength Spellbreaker - which is completely in line and has plenty of holes that can be used to kill someone who is careless with their resources.

Do. Not. Nerf. Core. Traits. To. Target. One. E-Spec.

 

No other Warrior spec running Defense is overperforming, so nerfing Defense makes no sense.  The trait line is not the problem.

 

Strength SpB was the best Warrior spec prior to EOD and the Defense reworks (besides the brief time when Bladesworn was OP), so it is no surprise that SpB is again the best Warrior spec when it is using the better tools provided by Defense.  This speaks to the overall strength of the Spellbreaker kit compared to the rest of warrior.  

 

The goal here should be to bring other builds up to the same level of viability as SpB.  Nerfing Defense will not do that.  

 

Moreover, Strength SpB was a B-tier pick even before EOD, and it has only become more irrelevant since with the general power creep of the game.  It makes no sense to tank the entire Warrior profession in favor of preserving a build/playstyle that wasn't very competitive to begin with.

 

If you want Str SpB to be better (or any SpB build for that matter), the way to do it is to buff Strength itself and/or other aspects of Core/SpB so that SpB can excel without relying on the bloated value it gets from FC.  Making meditations relevant, re-working useless warrior weapons (including OH dagger), etc, would be good places to start.  Strength, for instance, has lots of useless traits like brave stride, restorative strength, and body blow.  Creating alternatives to the Discipline traitline so that one could run something like Strength/Defense/SpB would be ideal.  Obviously, such changes are at least a balance patch (or 2 or 3) away, but that's the direction we should be heading in.

 

Do. Not. Nerf. Core. Traits. To. Target. One. E-Spec.

 

 

[Hotride.2187]

35 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Moreover, Strength SpB was a B-tier pick even before EOD, and it has only become more irrelevant since with the general power creep of the game.  It makes no sense to tank the entire Warrior profession in favor of preserving a build/playstyle that wasn't very competitive to begin with.

Ah yes, break something subpar that is enjoyable to play, so that the rest of war remains garbage. Of course.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Ah yes, break something subpar that is enjoyable to play, so that the rest of war remains garbage. Of course.

Definitely not what I said.

 

But you are defending something subpar and screwing the rest of the warrior profession to do so. I'm sure that feels good for you, but it's not good design and it's not good for warrior as a whole.

[Hotride.2187]

11 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Definitely not what I said.

But you are defending something subpar and screwing the rest of the warrior profession to do so. I'm sure that feels good for you, but it's not good design and it's not good for warrior as a whole.

If getting resistance on dodge, an extra heal as a passive, frequent weakness applications, adrenaline on getting hit, and a choice between extra cleansing, barrier or stab on cc, is not enough to prop up "the rest of warrior" then maybe its time to fix its weapons instead of relying on bloated traits?

And warrior is not the only profession that has only 1 viable spec as a  pvp option.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

17 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

If getting resistance on dodge, an extra heal as a passive, frequent weakness applications, adrenaline on getting hit, and a choice between extra cleansing, barrier or stab on cc, is not enough to prop up "the rest of warrior" then maybe its time to fix its weapons instead of relying on bloated traits?

I believe reworking weapons is exactly what I said in my initial post (one of several concrete recommendations, actually). Maybe give it another read.

 

That said, Defense isn't over performing, and nerfing it will only make the rest of warrior weaker. Good design doesn't screw over one thing when trying to balance another.

[Jagdtiger.2517]

As a former warrior main and former #2 best warrior in North America I have absolutely no problem with gutting spellbreaker and buffing core/berserker. 

[Fueki.4753]

7 hours ago, Jagdtiger.2517 said:

As a former warrior main and former #2 best warrior in North America I have absolutely no problem with gutting spellbreaker and buffing core/berserker. 

In an ideal world, Core and Berserker would be brought in line without neutering Spellbreaker.

Fixing the bugged CD on Full Counter should be enough to solve the Spellbreaker "issue".

Edited January 5, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Sansar.1302]

Spellbreaker is to oppressive rigth now , full conter does way to much.

[Myror.7521]

@Sansar.1302 litterly all it actually do is what it should do, counter your attacks. So how about idk do not hit into it?! Idk why peops keep saying fullcounter is too good. Its just not! Like for Real you could counter play it with blinds, dodge, stabi, boonstrip, stay in range or simply not hit into it. Thats more than enough counter play though an e-spec mechanic if you ask me^^. Okay I get that it actually is buggy and it need to be fixed so it have ots regular cd (12 secs) and not the shorter one (8secs)

[Sahne.6950]

24 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Sansar.1302 litterly all it actually do is what it should do, counter your attacks. So how about idk do not hit into it?! Idk why peops keep saying fullcounter is too good. Its just not! Like for Real you could counter play it with blinds, dodge, stabi, boonstrip, stay in range or simply not hit into it. Thats more than enough counter play though an e-spec mechanic if you ask me^^. Okay I get that it actually is buggy and it need to be fixed so it have ots regular cd (12 secs) and not the shorter one (8secs)

holy bias.

"just dont hit into it" But what if the SPB has a brain and uses FC to.. idk man.... actually counter a attack?

"just blind"....  you remember that the current defensebreaker is sitting almost permanently on resistance right?

A mechanic that gives you stabi, makes you immune to dmg, transfers conditions,is unblockable,  conditions the enemy to either dodge, burn stabi, or stunbreak, or hold attacks, ..... all that currently on a 8 second CD..... (i know its bugged)

Yeah thats not bloated at all. /s   Imagine Ele having a skill that does this...... 🔥The Forum would be burning. 🔥

Edited January 5, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Kodama.6453]

21 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

while the spellbreaker can still freely attack.....

Tbf, this is not true as far as I know. It is a channeled ability, it doesn't allow you to freely attack during it. And warrior has basically no access to instant cast damage skills to use during it.

[Sahne.6950]

Yeah its a channel. 100%

Had a brainfart. For some reason my brain went oongaboonga and mixed it with mesmer invuln xD Noticed it few seconds after hitting Enter, but the internet never forgets 😛
Theres 2 people still typing... they are gonna say the same, and rightfully so.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Myror.7521]

@Sahne.6950 but kitten. Thats just more or less the traitlines not just FC that gain warrior "perma" resistance. ("perma" cause its not even close permanent its more like 3 secs by fullcounter traitline + 3 seconds per dodge + some seconds per Light aura field comb) so technicaly it actually COULD be permanent but it will not be and most of it is also per defence things soo idk. 

 

To be fair it is a mechanic that gain ya stabi and is unblockable. That is just the true Part of fullcounter^^. And yes a warrior could use it with "brain" but also you could just fake you skills to let him waste the full counter for nothing so idk. Lets say yes it actually is a strong mechanic no lie here. But it is also pretty fair balance cause it gain some good counter play. While most e-spec mechanic like for example mirage dodge get nothing as counterplay (okay it now get only one dodge buuut thats fair enough i gues)

[Hotride.2187]

44 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

A mechanic that gives you stabi, makes you immune to dmg, transfers conditions,is unblockable,  conditions the enemy to either dodge, burn stabi, or stunbreak, or hold attacks, while the spellbreaker can still freely attack..... all that while currently on a 8 second CD.....

Not participating in the OP or not discussion (like any skill, it highly depends on what else your build brings; if your build is average, like before, there is only so much a single skill will carry you; if your build is strong, FC will make it over the top, like now with defense). But some semantics, since the listing is overall not correct:

How can you freely attack during FC? During the guard you are animation locked (you can move, but you cannot stow... you can weapon swap though to cancel the guard, stab remains). I think during the retaliation you can attack since you are not animation locked? Not 100% sure.

For the stab, its the same with the bladesworn gunsaber charge. Without stab it doesn't work since any CC stops the animation (e.g. steal into FC, or ele gale into FC). Its 1 stack for 2 seconds, where the FC animation lock is 1.5 seconds. So yeah, if you are mashing when fighting the spb (or you dropped aoes like some professions do), it is actually a stab source that can cover your heal. Otherwise the window for interrupting the heal is 0.5 sec (assuming no slow or chill, or you have resistance). Which again is better than nothing.

You are not immune to dmg, you still take condi dmg. Unblockables go through FC (and I think, don't trigger the retaliation, at least breaching strike doesn't).

It copies conditions, doesn't transfer them. Uses up a GM trait for this. And 3 conditions? Woah thats a lot given the condi vomit that condi builds do.

CD is 8.75 sec assuming you run discipline (AFAIK the condi spb does not, CD is 12 sec there; I might be wrong though, maybe I was checking out the wrong build). It is kinda low, cant argue that.

You forgot the daze, which is arguably the actually OP part. Since it triggers a bunch of spb things (boon removal, immob with no escape, attackers insight).

And you forgot the range, which is 450 and kinda abnormal for war. I think the range really does it, since you can't just walk away from the counterattack like you can from most war abilities.

And last, you can actually get hit by FC. Its not the end of the world. If your build is glassy, then you probably cannot get hit more than once since there will be follow-up dmg (though as glass, what are you doing in melee?). But a tanky build can face tank FCs for a long while.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[Sahne.6950]

Hey guys! you two are totally right^^

 

i just cant stand when someone says " just dont hit it"  or   " just use blind"   Thats the same as me saying  " just dodge the Dragonstooth/Watertrident bro".

playing around FC is harder than "just dont hit it lol".

i have a little "biased warriormain trauma" im sowwy ._.

I think Warrior needs a overhaul... because right now, every new build thats spawning out of the warrior, since EOD release are builds that are good because their sustain is.... lets say.... on the higher side. 😉

Edited January 5, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

45 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I think Warrior needs a overhaul... because right now, every new build thats spawning out of the warrior, since EOD release are builds that are good because their sustain is.... lets say.... on the higher side. 😉

It does need an overhaul. Several of its weapons and traitlines are still outdated, and Adrenaline as a mechanics is as well. BSW is still a clunky mess.

FC is what props up Spellbreaker for sure, but that has as much to do with it giving it an accessible evade/stab source than anything else. The main thing that needs to be addressed with it is the CD reduction bug. That alone would nerf it's effectiveness by 15%. After that what Anet can do is move it's activation of traits from the activation of FC to having hit with FC like other bursts.

[Myror.7521]

@Sansar.1302 @Sahne.6950

Well your just right dragontooth is easiliy dodge able. Also it is high telegraphed so who ever cry about it should first learn to dodge right. Only thing that might actually be a Problem when it comes to ele is. Its perma swiftness in comb with ranged blinds hard ranged dmg and some decent defence skills. ^^ 

 

So actually all i would maybe cry about when it comes to ele might be its ranged blinds but that is litterly everything cause it need the rest for self defence use ^^

[Sahne.6950]

8 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Sansar.1302 @Sahne.6950

Well your just right dragontooth is easiliy dodge able. Also it is high telegraphed so who ever cry about it should first learn to dodge right. Only thing that might actually be a Problem when it comes to ele is. Its perma swiftness in comb with ranged blinds hard ranged dmg and some decent defence skills. ^^ 

 

So actually all i would maybe cry about when it comes to ele might be its ranged blinds but that is litterly everything cause it need the rest for self defence use ^^

Dtooth is a tiny bit overtuned.... i wont sugarcoat it. They will probably increase the CD a bit....

Edited January 6, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

On 1/6/2023 at 7:14 AM, Pati.2438 said:

@Sansar.1302 @Sahne.6950

Well your just right dragontooth is easiliy dodge able. Also it is high telegraphed so who ever cry about it should first learn to dodge right. Only thing that might actually be a Problem when it comes to ele is. Its perma swiftness in comb with ranged blinds hard ranged dmg and some decent defence skills. ^^ 

 

So actually all i would maybe cry about when it comes to ele might be its ranged blinds but that is litterly everything cause it need the rest for self defence use ^^

Nah, roll spellbreaker and put those cheeky elementalist players back into the downstate meta.

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

On 12/31/2022 at 9:41 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

Tbh, I've been playing a fair bit of hammer spell breaker lately. 

I remembered back to to when they gave Hammer it's damage on CC back, hopped on my warrior. Looked at the traits, and all I could think was "Holy synergies".

Just by CCing people I can do all of the following:

Gain Quickness 

Gain Stability

rip boons (no prot 4 u)

apply weakness and bleeding 

gain adrenaline

Gain stacking power, precision, and ferocity buff

Empower Fierce Blow to crit for 7-10k

 

It's very fun to play. Being permenantly immune to CC in the same way that the old flamethrower scrapper was while deleting anyone once they run out of stunbreaks.

Plus the funny hammer bonk sounds just cause me to bust out laughing every time I 100-0 someone in a stunlock. 

 

Just like the FT scrapper of old, It gets a lot of value out of very few actions. It's permentantly CC immune, and it has the perfect toolset to bully people who are new to the game. Rifle Mech algo got nerfed for far less. 

 

That said, I would like to stop nerfing builds just because new players get bullied by them. Vindicating as it might be as an engi seeing another class get the the complaint treatment for a change, we should let people learn how to deal with this stuff eventually.

We live in a world where virtuosos have more aegis than a guardian plus distortion and catalyst is... everything that calatyst is. The tools to deal with this build are out there. 

 

Engi got nerf coz it's annoying, and warrior annoying too.

A annoying build will be cancel , cancel culture is great !

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

10 hours ago, noneHotBuildTest.7251 said:

 

Engi got nerf coz it's annoying, and warrior annoying too.

A annoying build will be cancel , cancel culture is great !

Shocking Aura is annoying. Let's cancel Tempest.

[ZolracAtrox.2908]

Just remove the full counter stun (when u don't touch him). I mean, what's the point on kite that skill if then an ally pet, ally basic or even an ally grounded aoe actives that skill that you've been avoiding carefully and warrior proceeds to do his full combo.

In teamfights agaisnt banner agains those "bunkers"  is the only issue that I see (maybe their survivality either).

 

Node Warriors are strong too but not at breaking game level; u only have to fight carefully, dodge and kite fullcounter.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

20 minutes ago, ZolracAtrox.2908 said:

Just remove the full counter stun (when u don't touch him). I mean, what's the point on kite that skill if then an ally pet, ally basic or even an ally grounded aoe actives that skill that you've been avoiding carefully and warrior proceeds to do his full combo.

In teamfights agaisnt banner agains those "bunkers"  is the only issue that I see (maybe their survivality either).

Personally, I'd like to see the three GM traits radically change how FC functions. Revenge Counter could lose the daze entirely and give it high damage instead. Enchantment Collapse would rip more boons instead the daze.

20 minutes ago, ZolracAtrox.2908 said:

Node Warriors are strong too but not at breaking game level; u only have to fight carefully, dodge and kite fullcounter.

And since it isn't at a game breaking level does that require any nerfs other than the bug fix that is getting pointed at very heavily?

[Morwath.9817]

What if FC would have 30s CD if enemy avoid dealing damage to Warrior during channel?