WvW Large scale combat feels broken

[Rezzet.3614]

mass pvp seems to rely on who has the most mechanics exploiting/negating professions in their group,  as a result blob fights are all about who has the most anti projectile fields+ non projectile ranged AoE spam 

4 professions dictate the fate of WvW combat pretty much , some professions dont even have access to non projectile ranged alternatives 

 

the worst part is i see no way of balancing the mess, its not as simple as x and y  needs a nerf and everything is fixed 

[Xenesis.6389]

That's what happens when you design the system for 5 targets, 5 player groups, hand one class the best stability, hand a bunch of the best support/utility tools to a couple specs, make projectiles and conditions useless against those groups, that narrows it down to carrying the best 4 meta support/ground aoe group specs and 1 throwaway dps/utility spec. You want a 50 squad take the 5meta copied x10.

 

[Custodio.6134]

which is basically the same in any game where players fight each other. 

name me one game, where everything is equally strong in every type of play, level of play, in any combination. 

Lemme get a few popular examples (regardless of what you think of the games/genres):

Example 1: League of Legends. 
LoL at this moment has 162 champions, with each one having at least one intended role (many can fit multiple). Is every champion equally strong? NO! is every champion playable in every position? NO! Is one champion the sole best in the game? in 99% of cases: NO! (the only exception here being newly released champions, because riot games releases them stronger than average to push up the playrates). 
Does it matter? also: no. because player-skill and interactions between players dictate the outcome of the game (aka "teamwork")

Example 2: Counter Strike.
CS:GO has a lot of weapon- and utility-choices (ranging from pistols, over SMG's , Sniper Rifles up to the AWP that is limited to 1 per team). 
Is every weapon equally strong? hell no (that´s why the AWP is limited). Does it really matter? Not really (to some extent), as the strategy of the team puts different choices into favor. It is a skill-difference (which includes individual skill with specific weapons, as well as teamwork to make the choices work) that in the end is the deciding factor. 

Is it a disadvantage to have single classes/speccs dominate in a large-scale-PvP-mode? 
Absolutely NO. It´s the other way around. 

If you give a specific specc a specific purpose, it makes the job easier to balance everything out. Not everything will work in every aspect of the game, just because of how different classes work naturally. 
Of course you can try your best to bring every specc as close as possible to the others, but reaching an equilibrium in balance is literally impossible as you have to account for different styles of play (roaming/dueling, smallscale, mid-/large-scale, siege, combat etc). all these styles have different needs, and in order to balance stuff out you need to make compromises

[Dawdler.8521]

Anet has essentially balanced themselves into a corner. Nerfing boons, AoE, bubbles etc would cause an absolute outrage across the board because the amount of nerf needed is... apocalyptic. And even if all the other classes gets nerfed thieves would still complain they are the worst duelists and the worst roamers with no mobility.

[Riba.3271]

Actually amount of reflects is much lower now since the recent firebrand nerf.

 

My advice tho would be to stay far away from any Longbow, Shortbow, Rifle or Pistol builds. I know most people have long range pewpew dream, but it just doesn't work. Even if there weren't reflects, the damage would be bad. If you wanna do long range bursts, play greatsword mesmer, staff ele or hammer rev builds.

[Rezzet.3614]

5 hours ago, Custodio.6134 said:

which is basically the same in any game where players fight each other. 

name me one game, where everything is equally strong in every type of play, level of play, in any combination. 

Lemme get a few popular examples (regardless of what you think of the games/genres):

Example 1: League of Legends. 
LoL at this moment has 162 champions, with each one having at least one intended role (many can fit multiple). Is every champion equally strong? NO! is every champion playable in every position? NO! Is one champion the sole best in the game? in 99% of cases: NO! (the only exception here being newly released champions, because riot games releases them stronger than average to push up the playrates). 
Does it matter? also: no. because player-skill and interactions between players dictate the outcome of the game (aka "teamwork")

Example 2: Counter Strike.
CS:GO has a lot of weapon- and utility-choices (ranging from pistols, over SMG's , Sniper Rifles up to the AWP that is limited to 1 per team). 
Is every weapon equally strong? hell no (that´s why the AWP is limited). Does it really matter? Not really (to some extent), as the strategy of the team puts different choices into favor. It is a skill-difference (which includes individual skill with specific weapons, as well as teamwork to make the choices work) that in the end is the deciding factor. 

Is it a disadvantage to have single classes/speccs dominate in a large-scale-PvP-mode? 
Absolutely NO. It´s the other way around. 

If you give a specific specc a specific purpose, it makes the job easier to balance everything out. Not everything will work in every aspect of the game, just because of how different classes work naturally. 
Of course you can try your best to bring every specc as close as possible to the others, but reaching an equilibrium in balance is literally impossible as you have to account for different styles of play (roaming/dueling, smallscale, mid-/large-scale, siege, combat etc). all these styles have different needs, and in order to balance stuff out you need to make compromises

 LoL is a moba with a rock paper scissor style system through the dps/tank/support  roles , in this case its as if  you flat out discarded 1 of the roles from the opposing team, sure not all characters are equally powerful but  you  pretty much create a 80 character wide crater hole in the menu  when you got the ability to deny so much from the game ,  actually thats something that happened early on in the game there was a weapon that negated tanks as a whole as it stole hp and did percentage damage so dps/carry would wipe them out with that weapon and any other attack speed weapon

 

CS:GO's case is a whole diferent thing , its a 1 shot kill weapon with pin point precision , the game would reduce to everyone camping and cheesy exploits  instead of tactical and skill play if they were allowed the weapon, not to mention it has a very high cost to deploy, wich you have to earn using non AWPs and you can lose it

 

Single classes/Specs dominating the Free for all mode is a problem , its the whole point of the mode, pretty much the game's true end game 

 

yes we expect single professions/specs to dominate in certain aspects but when they flat out invalidate the Existance as a whole of half the game , something aint quite right , the original issue mentioned applies to all forms of group combat  except for roaming/dueling and small scale (5x5)  

 

im wrong in some aspects but right on some , hence why i havent openly called for nerfing of anything , just saying WvW is in a bit of a mess , i need more data but i cant afford  weekly server transfers yet , dunno if those are a thing or they are locked to monthly to not mess matchups

[Rezzet.3614]

4 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Actually amount of reflects is much lower now since the recent firebrand nerf.

 

My advice tho would be to stay far away from any Longbow, Shortbow, Rifle or Pistol builds. I know most people have long range pewpew dream, but it just doesn't work. Even if there weren't reflects, the damage would be bad. If you wanna do long range bursts, play greatsword mesmer, staff ele or hammer rev builds.

  all the professions you mentioned have not just reflect but also non reflect anti projectile AoE while having non projectile ranged AoE 

 

"counter not being able to play  4 professions by not playing said professions and playing the ones that cancel them " cant be the only option , specially when some players have over 10,000 hours into their character

[Rezzet.3614]

eh in the end im just a dumb nobody and this is a pointless thread  as i cant offer solutions to what i perceived as a problem 

[misfired.8403]

12 hours ago, Rezzet.3614 said:

the worst part is i see no way of balancing the mess, its not as simple as x and y  needs a nerf and everything is fixed 

Guild Wars 2 is a PvE game with PvP bolted on. There is no way to balance the PvP portion of the game unless they go back 10+ years and design it as a primary PvP game. We already had that game and that is the first Guild Wars.

 

I agree with your statements and the other replies that large scale PvP feels broken.

[subversiontwo.7501]

19 hours ago, Rezzet.3614 said:

mass pvp seems to rely on who has the most mechanics exploiting/negating professions in their group,  as a result blob fights are all about who has the most anti projectile fields+ non projectile ranged AoE spam 

4 professions dictate the fate of WvW combat pretty much , some professions dont even have access to non projectile ranged alternatives 

 

the worst part is i see no way of balancing the mess, its not as simple as x and y  needs a nerf and everything is fixed 

It is true that the game is designed around a party of five and that the meta is defined by the five most popular roles (or curated as such by a generalised "view of commanders").

However, what is amiss in your observation and most discussion on the forums is that every class does have role. The meta isn't defined by what dictates, dominates, is the best or anything like that. It is defined by simplicity: What is easy to herd and what is easy to learn or be decent enough on with limited experience.

The things people tend to believe not to have a role do have roles but in most cases they are more difficult to run and require a greater deal of self-governance from the people who play them. They're still meant to be played in parties, as that is how the game is designed, but those parties would need to be more autonymous from the squad/tag. Tags prefer simple because they are usually low on help or other players to rely on for more complex options.

The people you see complaining about this on forums tend not to have ability to form and compose their own parties. They are people playing by themselves, looking to join a larger squad or who simply lack the knowledge and experience to make something different useful. Creating your own party was the norm before squads, today it is becomming a lost art.

At the same time, alot of the people complaining have always been cut from the same cloth: They want to join the content but not be told what to do. For example, they want to join the tag but not be told what to do by the tag. They want the one class they play be made into the other class that the squad seem to favour, and so on.

What I've warned about for some time is that once everything is cut closer to a 4-5 mold of roles, the players who curate that in order to shape a simple baseline are going to get bored and quit. The people who create "metas" to help others tend to want the game far more complex than just the meta. They create the meta, but not for themselves. The people who run- or curate for places like Mists know how to play things like Thieves and Rangers in large-scale themselves. They make the mold to help others, others who often do not want to be told what to do.

Somehow, I feel like I have said this before 😇.

Ed.

Quote

eh in the end im just a dumb nobody and this is a pointless thread  as i cant offer solutions to what i perceived as a problem 

Actually you can, it is all about learning and going beyond the most obvious. There are just few people left to help as most people are either new, comfortable, no longer care, without effort or unsociable (to all, or outside existing friend groups).

Edited December 10, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Junkpile.7439]

Funny try to play dps guardian or something. You die if you touch red and every frigging place is full of red if you plan to try hit somebody. Such a moronic combat system.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

welcome to wvw!

[Sviel.7493]

I am continually mystified that people claim to enjoy large-scale combat precisely because it's so scuffed.  It's fine that they do, but I don't think it's a good selling point for the game.  There's also not really a path to making it good either because there's a whole tower of nonsense built on faulty fundamentals.  Even if the dev team is very good at what they do, there's no way to make it work.

The kicker is that the 5v5 mode isn't popular either and it just gets worse at scale.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Sviel.7493

[Luthan.5236]

Well ... for large scale combat actually the number (of players) should the key factor. Also maybe siege - where the game mode should be improved in a way that it also encourages to suddenly pop up some arrow cars - for example - in a big fight maybe. Also terrain usage - for the advantage. (Defending choke points.)

The (current) playstyle of the "more serious" players of WvW ... I find this boring. To stay all at one place on top of the commander. Using tons of boons and stuff. And then jumping at the enemy. Then like "dancing" ... moving back and forth ... without anyone really trying to accomplish anything besides just repeating this until one group is killed. (Which also happens away from objcetives - the important thing in WvW - sometimes.)

The most boring part in GW2 - out o fall game modes - is in WvW when 2 zergs fight each other and no objective (not defending/attacking a tower/keep/camp or SM) are involved and not even sieges are used.

Looking only at the PvP-related stuff - the best is the conquest game mode in PvP. Mini seasons death match are too random. 5 vs. 5 at least even tries to split the groups (only 5 players ... have to split to try to attack/defend different capture points not only one).

WvW can't even break up the zergs - by implementing something that gives you the win (war score, victory points or other stuff) ... for holding different points. (Only ticking if a certain amount of objectives are held. Not ticking each individual one. Removing points sfrom kills. - that would help. Let's say you have at least to have capped your own corner + Dolyaks moving into the keep without getting killed - to receive points. That would be fun.)

Edited December 11, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[kash.9213]

5 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

Well ... for large scale combat actually the number (of players) should the key factor. Also maybe siege - where the game mode should be improved in a way that it also encourages to suddenly pop up some arrow cars - for example - in a big fight maybe. Also terrain usage - for the advantage. (Defending choke points.)

The (current) playstyle of the "more serious" players of WvW ... I find this boring. To stay all at one place on top of the commander. Using tons of boons and stuff. And then jumping at the enemy. Then like "dancing" ... moving back and forth ... without anyone really trying to accomplish anything besides just repeating this until one group is killed. (Which also happens away from objcetives - the important thing in WvW - sometimes.)

The most boring part in GW2 - out o fall game modes - is in WvW when 2 zergs fight each other and no objective (not defending/attacking a tower/keep/camp or SM) are involved and not even sieges are used.

Looking only at the PvP-related stuff - the best is the conquest game mode in PvP. Mini seasons death match are too random. 5 vs. 5 at least even tries to split the groups (only 5 players ... have to split to try to attack/defend different capture points not only one).

WvW can't even break up the zergs - by implementing something that gives you the win (war score, victory points or other stuff) ... for holding different points. (Only ticking if a certain amount of objectives are held. Not ticking each individual one. Removing points sfrom kills. - that would help. Let's say you have at least to have capped your own corner + Dolyaks moving into the keep without getting killed - to receive points. That would be fun.)

Neither of those large groups can afford to underestimate the other, or a possible third lurking around. They have to expect plotting and probably know that the other side is also thinking about being the one to dominate max range and try to pull the other out of their security for the right moment to be busted up. However fast a fight looks at a glance it's running twice as fast zoomed in to the squad security layer. There's a lot of thinking WvW thoughts going on. There's been countless times where I think I'm slick and about to get at someone only to find out instead.

Everyone is already locked into match times. Once the fight moves onto a Point then everyone has to commit to another timer and that's going to be a huge security loss for everyone, but massively compounded for the side that's not rolling around with a full composition and they can't drag the other side around anymore. Plus, it's harder to connect pulls or whatever if you can't spread and get better angles or goad movement.

Edited December 11, 2022 by kash.9213

[Alsandar.7420]

I miss invisibility. Was so fun. I miss abilities with unlimited targets. The devs of the past made wvw silly and fun and unbalanced. Current anet = fun police. They want eveything to be logical

[Sahne.6950]

On 12/11/2022 at 7:26 PM, Alsandar.7420 said:

I miss abilities with unlimited targets.

A big reason of why this is gone, is that it would cause alot of lags.   Since most skills are targetcapped to 5, the skilldelay has been significantly reduced in largescale fights

Edited December 13, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[aspirine.6852]

Stack on the lord, put up reflects. Spam the boons. If that didnt work, bring more. Rince and repeat.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, aspirine.6852 said:

Stack on the lord, put up reflects. Spam the boons. If that didnt work, bring more. Rince and repeat.

Meanwhile get into hills T3 with 3 people and cap it wondering where enemies are.

Orange swords on bay because every enemy stacks on lord.