Why is this game so antagonistic towards organized group content?

[Gatzy.1043]

The party/squad and LFG features are worse than what other games have had for a decade. Why is there no party leader? Why does everyone in a party have full control over it? Why do you need to pay 300 gold for the privilege of sorting people into subgroups, or placing markers on the ground? Why is there no way to mark or self-mark as quick/alac/heal to facilitate party organization?

and the big one: Why is there no inspect?

If the answer is so that people are not kicked for having bad gear or trait selection, the natural conclusion is that the developers intend for us to unwittingly carry players who are unable to contribute adequately to the party due to their poor gear and traits.

This is why we're forced to resort to imperfect proxies like kp and titles to try to filter out some of the chaff. This has the side effect of filtering players who have done the research and properly set up their class, but haven't met the X amount of kills sought.

Is this really any less "toxic" or "elitist" than if we could inspect gear?

[Linken.6345]

We used to have party leaders back at release but it was abused.

One example party leader went in first worked up to first boss then went afk.

- I have to go for such and such reason, but you can keep going or wait for me.

So your choice was finish the dungeon and let him leech or start over from scrach since instance was tied to said person.

[Nephalem.8921]

Like Linken explained the party leader system created lots of issues at launch. The leader leaving the group resulted in everyone getting kicked out of the dungeon.

Your second point: There is no inspect because toxic casuals claimed this game ages ago and are allergic to common sense. They are afraid of toxic raiders using it to kick them out of raids. The content they are not doing in the first place... They also try their best to get arcdps banned.

It wont get added for another reason though. Requires an ui designer and probably other resources for a feature that is nice to have while not required while anet is understaffed on the programmer side.

The entire lfg needs a redesign with players being able to mark themselves as quick/tank/alac etc visible in the ui. As active and 2nd role etc and commanders placing them on squad roles like quick/dps etc. That would be a massive qol upgrade for open world and pug commanders.

Even statics struggle with keeping track of that with players swapping roles between encounters.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Nephalem.8921

[Winston Lycan.5729]

I never go with the groups asking for KP or LI. I already played WoW and FF14, so there are many more raids that harder than what we have in GW2. 1000KP just to do IBS5? Pffft. My guild leader can lead a non-experienced people who only has Rare equipment to clear the strike.

The problem is not the Inspect. We need the Fractals / Raid / Strike finder. WIth it, you have to be forced to play with strangers, and everybody knows their responsibility to explain the mech or watch others action carefully to not mess up the mech. LFG can stay, but they can throw the "Training" section out. Nobody ever LFG in that section and it just creates a feeling that people should be "trained" to do the raids.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Winston Lycan.5729

[Biziut.3594]

7 minutes ago, Winston Lycan.5729 said:

I never go with the groups asking for KP or LI. I already played WoW and FF14, so there are many more raids that harder than what we have in GW2. 1000KP just to do IBS5? Pffft. My guild leader can lead a non-experienced people who only has Rare equipment to clear the strike.

But you do realise that not everyone want to spend 3 hours clearing silly strikes?

9 minutes ago, Winston Lycan.5729 said:

The problem is not the Inspect. We need the Fractals / Raid / Strike finder. WIth it, you have to be forced to play with strangers, and everybody knows their responsibility to explain the mech or watch others action carefully to not mess up the mech. LFG can stay, but they can throw the "Training" section out. Nobody ever LFG in that section and it just creates a feeling that people should be "trained" to do the raids.

Yeah, imagine raid finder, 10 mixed ppls, half of them dont know the mechanic, only one can heal, no one can alac or quick, no one can do special role. Who do you kick and why? All have right to be there and yet you have 0 chance to clear the wing.

So I'll stick to kp. Slow time of a clear is one thing but what you are proposing just won't work, unless you have some miracle up your sleeve.

[Winston Lycan.5729]

Just like most other MMOs, you can queue as alac DPS or quickness Healer. Raid finder does not mean that it will queue 10 healers in the raid and hope it will work.

Edit: Lost Ark queue actually did that, and everyone fking hate it.

Edit 2: spending 3 hours clearing silly strikes? How? In all normal IBS strikes only Boneskinner and Jormag have mech that you have to do there. Fallen is just "please follow my target ping" and Dragonstorm is just "We split into 2 teams". How doing all of these take you up to 3 hours? 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Winston Lycan.5729

[Biziut.3594]

 

11 minutes ago, Winston Lycan.5729 said:

Just like most other MMOs, you can queue as alac DPS or quickness Healer. Raid finder does not mean that it will queue 10 healers in the raid and hope it will work.

Edit: Lost Ark queue actually did that, and everyone fking hate it.

 

You still need to know whos going to do special mechanics as well as if all roles actually know how to play their class. Also it would be nice to actually know who have knowledge of the encounter so some kp system would be a must.

Imo, if a-net would even consider to put resources into auto lfg that would need to be expended like this, than effect would be worse/similar to what we already have, so I would really prefere to put resources elswhere or to improve LFG system we have now.

[Winston Lycan.5729]

18 minutes ago, Biziut.3594 said:

 

You still need to know whos going to do special mechanics as well as if all roles actually know how to play their class. Also it would be nice to actually know who have knowledge of the encounter so some kp system would be a must.

Imo, if a-net would even consider to put resources into auto lfg that would need to be expended like this, than effect would be worse/similar to what we already have, so I would really prefere to put resources elswhere or to improve LFG system we have now.

 

You can assign people to do special mechanics by telling them before going in. And you can know who know the mechanic beforehand by asking "Any first time / not knowing the mech?" These things should be a norm.

And trust me, it will not be worse. I played most of the MMOs out there, and in the one having good raids with party finder always like that. First, you ask if anyone not know the mech. If there is, you tell them mech, and lay down the markers. Second, you split roles. Third, ready check and thats it. It only costs you 3 minutes instead of sitting half an hour in LFG.

And like, what is GW2 mech, again? Running around clockwise for a whole strike, or break bar of the bosse on order? Or burst the mirror when you tp-ing out? In fractals, some can be interesting, like you have to hide behind meteorite THEN split the stacks THEN high jump, but that's easy to laughable state. In FF14, and lvl16 dungeon boss can have a wipe-out attack THEN a DPS check in 1. And I do not think I have to say anything about Lost Ark raids cuz it's on another level.

And as you can see I do not include Raids here cuz I do not have the "10k KP" required to even know where the heck they are..

Edited December 19, 2022 by Winston Lycan.5729

[The Boz.2038]

"I played other games, other game content is harder."
"...no, I did not play this game's hard content."
"Let me educate you on what this game's hard content needs changed."

[Biziut.3594]

10 minutes ago, Winston Lycan.5729 said:

And as you can see I do not include Raids here cuz I do not have the "10k KP" required to even know where the heck they are..

You already included them.

1 hour ago, Winston Lycan.5729 said:

 We need the Fractals / Raid / Strike finder. 

 

12 minutes ago, Winston Lycan.5729 said:

You can assign people to do special mechanics by telling them before going in. And you can know who know the mechanic beforehand by asking "Any first time / not knowing the mech?" These things should be a norm.

Nope, when I go into instanced content I want to play and clear it in the time I expect. I am not there to explain mechanic to first timers, thats what training runs are for.

16 minutes ago, Winston Lycan.5729 said:

First, you ask if anyone not know the mech. If there is, you tell them mech, and lay down the markers. Second, you split roles. Third, ready check and thats it. It only costs you 3 minutes instead of sitting half an hour in LFG.

So sorry but I really prefere waiting this over exagarated half hour on lfg than teach every newcomer mechanic and endure wipes they cause, coz this will certainly take way longer than 3 minutes.

22 minutes ago, Winston Lycan.5729 said:

And like, what is GW2 mech, again?

And here I was thinking I am writing with someone that actually knows the game enough to create such ideas. Not surprised tho. Well answering tour question there are quite plenty mechanics... Pylons, tanks, pillars, wisps, lamp, kite, ano, greens, golem, off-tank, orb, hk, black kiter, claim, dispel, mortar, reflect, cannon... ect ect. But as you said you didn't even knew that, than what we are even talking about.

[Biziut.3594]

15 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

"I played other games, other game content is harder."
"...no, I did not play this game's hard content."
"Let me educate you on what this game's hard content needs changed."

Thats why I have never met a raider that comes out with this silly idea of auto LFG. Like seriously, every single person that comes out with this idea eighter confirms he did not know about raid mechs or after some discussion sporadicly says that they don't want those raids included in auto LFG anyways coz toxicity/dead content. (Take your pick, just do not include third option which is "you were just right and raids wouldn't work with auto LFG" this one is a no no xd).

[Winston Lycan.5729]

18 minutes ago, Biziut.3594 said:

You already included them.

 

Nope, when I go into instanced content I want to play and clear it in the time I expect. I am not there to explain mechanic to first timers, thats what training runs are for.

So sorry but I really prefere waiting this over exagarated half hour on lfg than teach every newcomer mechanic and endure wipes they cause, coz this will certainly take way longer than 3 minutes.

And here I was thinking I am writing with someone that actually knows the game enough to create such ideas. Not surprised tho. Well answering tour question there are quite plenty mechanics... Pylons, tanks, pillars, wisps, lamp, kite, ano, greens, golem, off-tank, orb, hk, black kiter, claim, dispel, mortar, reflect, cannon... ect ect. But as you said you didn't even knew that, than what we are even talking about.

 

See, that's your problem. You want to perfect the clear at any cost. You do not want to teach or communicate with each other and willing to kick others because their gear is not up to your expectation. So that's the "toxicity" that you question about, and yes, "no Inspect" will limit that. It helps people not getting kicked just because they only have 1 accessory not ascended. Besides, if you 100% organized by partying only with people you know, you do not even need to inspect anyone. 

 

And about the mechs you said, yeah I know about them. I know the mech to "grab the wisp at the same time then deposit it". I just do not group it into one word to create confusion. Of course, I still use "tank" as "aggro the boss" and "off-tank" as "aggro the adds" because they are frequently needed.

 

[Biziut.3594]

9 minutes ago, Winston Lycan.5729 said:

 

See, that's your problem. You want to perfect the clear at any cost. You do not want to teach or communicate with each other and willing to kick others because their gear is not up to your expectation.

 

Hey, hey, hey. I do not put words into your mouth. Don't you dare do it to me nor do not try calling me toxic. I spent my fair share of time on teaining runs to get where I am, and I am also leading training runs WHEN I FEEL LIKE IT.

What is more toxic, wanting to do fast clear or expecting someone to teach you becouse your somehow entitled to it. I do not owe you a training, no one owes you a thing. Not to mention I didn't even gave an opinion on gear "inspect" so your assumptions are wrong, sorry.

19 minutes ago, Winston Lycan.5729 said:

And about the mechs you said, yeah I know about them. I know the mech to "grab the wisp at the same time then deposit it". I just do not group it into one word to create confusion. Of course, I still use "tank" as "aggro the boss" and "off-tank" as "aggro the adds" because they are frequently needed.

 

Great, you managed to pick the easiest of the mechanics, as for tanks i need to disappoint you but it's not just stand in place and let boss smash your face. In gw2 you need to make sure that boss stands in correct place, make him place his skills in place that will not endanger other player and many other things.

Auto LFG will not have the plasure of "not grouping it all into one word". It must include every possible mechanic, and most of them are not so easly defined.

[Sigmoid.7082]

My problem with the auto LFG idea has always been people say it would enable them to get in and get some clears, but how does the game quantify your your ability to perform the role you have signed up for short of removing the flexibility this games build system provides and doing the things people often complain about: suggesting / telling you what build to play and gear to use? 

 

At that point the game is telling you how to play and by the definition of those that ,incorrectly, quite the play how you want line would label Anet as toxic and elitist. 

 

Also how it's apparently toxic and elitist to teach when you want, your own time, but somehow not toxic or entitled to demand to be taught when you want , someone else's time. 

 

[Mell.4873]

I would love a better LFG panel, the current one is a nightmare. 

I would like a queuing system but maybe it could be a soft que like PvP or WvW where you don't have to accept it if it pops.

You could even push it further with a quick party chat interview before you start the instance. The only real difference over what we currently have is simply you could que for a selection of activities like all raids or all strikes rather than waiting in the LFG panel. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Obtena.7952]

It should be obvious at this point why inspect feature doesn't exist: because the game doesn't need it for people to play together with people they want and complete content. It's not even a QoL feature. It's simply a tool people will use to abuse others. 

Again, inspecting someone's gear does not tell you anything about their ability to play the game or their knowledge of the encounter ... the only two things you really need to complete the majority of the content in this game. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Quirin.1076]

Any LFG will be abused, I joined a group the other day because they were looking for Alac Healer.  We did the first strike,  the leaders called out and kicked all the low DPS, 4 players. Then started the next strike, then they kicked the lower 2 DPS. Then we did all the rest of the strikes.  I mean that kind of worked like an inspect system, they simply kicked the low DPS until they got what they considered a good group.  DPS is always easy to find in LFG.

 

I mean it was impressive, the fastest set of strikes I have been in.   A bit abusive to the DPS, I mean the first two strikes did succeed and way before the enrage timer. 

[Gatzy.1043]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It should be obvious at this point why inspect feature doesn't exist: because the game doesn't need it for people to play together with people they want and complete content. It's not even a QoL feature. It's simply a tool people will use to abuse others. 

I want to play with people who have correct (or close enough) gear, and correct builds. I can't access (most) of this information without being able to inspect their character. 
 

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, inspecting someone's gear does not tell you anything about their ability to play the game or their knowledge of the encounter ... the only two things you really need to complete the majority of the content in this game. 

With 99% certainty, if someone has gear worse than exotics, pointlessly mismatched or useless stat combinations, or an significantly off-meta build, I know that player will not be able to perform to the standards that I expect. This is not only for me, but to respect the time and effort of other players in the group. Doing less dps than the healbrand because you're on a special snowflake toughness open world build during a raid is not acceptable.

The likelihood of someone failing this basic criteria while also being experienced at the game is astronomically tiny, and even if they perform perfectly, their contribution will be severely hampered by the poor gear/build.

And then there's masteries that are sometimes requires to complete a raid. I have had people join my group that's listed in the experienced section with low mastery points and refuse to answer questions about if they have a specific mastery, or even lie.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Gatzy.1043 said:

I want to play with people who have correct (or close enough) gear, and correct builds. I can't access (most) of this information without being able to inspect their character. 

OK, that just means the responsibility is on you to do that WITHOUT an inspect feature. I like playing with certain people that the game doesn't give me a 'check' function for either. I've figured it out how to deal with that ... so can you. 

I mean, the fact is that nothing I said was incorrect ... an inspect feature simply will not tell you if someone knows how to play the game, their build or the encounter. In fact, it's probably the WORST measure of those things because someone that knows all those things is probably MORE capable to play an off-meta build than someone who isn't. 

The REAL issue that people don't want to talk about here is that they want to play with the convenience of the LFG function but NOT with the risk it has for teaming with unknown players. Somehow they convinced themselves that an inspect function reduces massive risk for them. 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Gatzy.1043]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

an inspect feature simply will not tell you if someone knows how to play the game, their build or the encounter. In fact, it's probably the WORST measure of those things because someone that knows all those things is probably MORE capable to play an off-meta build than someone who isn't. 

The correlation between bad stats and bad build and not knowing how to play the game is extremely high. not all players with correct setups are good, but virtually all players with bad setups are bad.
 

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Somehow they convinced themselves that an inspect function reduces massive risk for them. 

How can you say this? Filtering obviously inexperienced or lazy players by being able to inspect would absolutely reduce risk.

[The Boz.2038]

3 hours ago, Gatzy.1043 said:

The correlation between bad stats and bad build and not knowing how to play the game is extremely high. not all players with correct setups are good, but virtually all players with bad setups are bad.
 

How can you say this? Filtering obviously inexperienced or lazy players by being able to inspect would absolutely reduce risk.

You will find that one is much better off ignoring mud. Playing with it is not worth the wash that will be needed afterwards.

[maxwelgm.4315]

Yes, Anet is not holding the hand of players who enjoy organized instanced content...your option, go figure, is to organize for the instanced content. As in, find your static and have fun exactly the way you want - works pretty well too.

 

They have not acted towards streamlining instances for 10 years, and there's no reason for them to change especially now that the game is experiencing a revival of sorts and the current path they're threading (which involves letting players organize themselves out for instanced content) seems to be successful.

[Krzysztof.5973]

21 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

"I played other games, other game content is harder."
"...no, I did not play this game's hard content."
"Let me educate you on what this game's hard content needs changed."

GW2 forums, 2022 circa, colorized. 

[Cyninja.2954]

23 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

"I played other games, other game content is harder."
"...no, I did not play this game's hard content."
"Let me educate you on what this game's hard content needs changed."

 

This made me giggle and almost cry at the same time. Unfortunately so true. 😔

[Nash.2681]

On 12/19/2022 at 1:06 PM, Winston Lycan.5729 said:

 

You can assign people to do special mechanics by telling them before going in. And you can know who know the mechanic beforehand by asking "Any first time / not knowing the mech?" These things should be a norm.

[...]

This right there. I wonder why no came to this conclusion before? It's totally clear that with an auto-lfg all problems would be gone over night! Things like

- "daily EoD strike, know mechs" 9 ppl waiting in the instance the 10th sits in EotN until getting called out, responding "what is EoD?" or "I don't have the add-on" or

- "daily HT" --> Commander asks "any first timers in here? everyone knows the mechanics?" *silence* ....random guy places fat red AoE right under the boss

and so on, absolutely won't happen, right? Right?? Oh wait...

I mean, if you'd regulary do raids or strike CMs with pugs, you'd knew that the average squad consinsts of at least 6-7 ppl that are dead set on one class/role and unable to do something else. Even worse when it comes to special roles like HK or push/kite G2. To expect some auto-lfg would magically solve this, is beyond me.

Oh, I forgot... "But ppl could pick their role before queing!" Well, I can already see the forum complaints of mono role players sitting in queue forever or commanders being fed up with ppl not performing their chosen role.