defense spellbreaker overperforming unacceptably

[Terrorhuz.4695]

13 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Standard enemy models. Also ditto what Lan said. after doing some more sparring, the twirl is dagger 2, the burst is a leap like heartseeker. 

Azure don't insult me, it's not readable even when standard enemy models are applied. I couldn't tell them apart reliably even when I was the one using those skills with a charr warrior I made for testing. Be serious for a moment, in a real engagement I see "character with dagger => they jump with hands in the air => dagger hits me". Adding some different audio queue or some particle effects on the unblockable one would be as a good way to fix this as any other.

You want a readable skill? Maul is readable because nothing has a big kittening bear, Arcing Slice is readable because nothing spins a huge kitten GS in place, Confusing Images is readable because it's some 1.5s windup, True Shot is readable because you see a guardian storing up light for 0.75s, Phantom Onslaught is readable because it's the only skill throwing yourself forward (ok, Nomad's Advance works pretty much the same but, truth be told, they're both skills you should block; they don't have similar skills one of which bypasses half of the defenses).

You know what's not readable? Two leaps on the same weapon, with similar range, similar cast time, similar cooldown, no discernible audio queue nor different particle effects, both bringing the kittening dagger on top of your head in the middle of a jump. PLEASE. These things drive me kittening mad, you guys choose the worst kittening hill to die on even when you're dead wrong.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Now you got me curious, which are the 3 annoying builds for engineer? I guess tools holo is one of them, so 2 more to go. 😜

Tools holo, Explosives Holo, Signet Mechanist and Grenade Scrapper. 

All annoying. mostly fine fairness wise. 

Quote

Be serious for a moment.

I cant we're in a thread about defense spellbreaker. 

I will not insult you though~

Quote

 even when I was the one using those skills with a charr warrior I made for testing.

Standard enemy makes all the enemies human male/female though.

Also no way. I don't believe you.

Look, I don't care if you put a different sound cue or a blue little glow on it or something as long as you're not making the skill slower or anything. I can't buy you can't tell the difference on a charr war though. Normally charr anims are funky but for Dagger 2 and F1 Anet was very careful to make sure the skill anims resembled the other races. It's not any harder than dodging mirror blade. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

32 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Standard enemy models. Also ditto what Lan said. after doing some more sparring, the twirl is dagger 2, the burst is a leap like heartseeker. 

Yeah, it really is only the beginning that they are similar, but at the end, where dodging matter, they are different and distinct animations.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

41 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

things

I never asked to make it slower. I don't think it should be slower. I want it to be clear on the receiving end which one is being used, because regardless of what you say it is not, and I specifically talked to Roy in-game about adding sound queues or particle effects to either of the two, so that those among us that seemingly lack your superwarrior perception actually have a chance to tell those two apart. I gave you examples of what is readable and what is not readable, explaining why some things are readable (either it's a telegraphed animation or it's the only animation of its kind in a given situation) and why dagger leaps on warrior are not (similar animation, similar cast time, similar range, similar cooldown, in the same weapon... but one of them can drop 8k through a block). You can't just say "but it's readable!"; it's not. I'm in the heat of the battle, with good reflexes I have 0.25s to realize something is happening, in the next 0.5s I need to decide whether I dodge or block; to do that, what's coming must be clear. Take Mirror Blade and Phantasmal Berserker; both are throwing projectiles on the same weapon, but you can still tell them apart because of different cooldowns, because of different animation (gs goes up-to-down for the first, left-to-right for the latter), because of different timings. That is readable. Jumping with a slightly different angle on your dagger is NOT. I'd even go as far as to say you can even buff the blockable one for all I care, so it's faster; it's would be better than this.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Just now, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I never asked to make it slower. I don't think it should be slower. I want it to be clear which one is being used, and I specifically talked to Roy in-game about adding sound queues or particle effects.

 

Absolutely fine. 

I don't believe the anim thing though that's a hard sell.

 

The leaps DO look similar though.  If you're not looking for it I can see misjudging.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

6 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Since it is a GAME it should not have anything annoying. For me, this should be an actual metric

This is quite literally impossible because it's an entirely subjective metric. Clones are unbelievably annoying to me and mesmer often makes my head hurt from all the shatter flashing, but that's not something Anet has to consider in the slightest when it comes to class balance. 

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Listen you have 19k HP and heavy armor and mending; even if you eat a burst you really have all the tools to make do. Stop acting like you're an elementalist, you're not.

As I already said, before the recent reworks you had to run shield, endure pain and energy sigil (to not mention MMR and tether) to have enough sustain for a side node fight. And any thief that +1ed you was real bad news.

[Spellhunter.9675]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Name one competitive game that doesn't have annoying mechanics, or any competitive interactions that are devoid of annoyance. You can't.

They shouldn't be the -focus- of competitive games, but even if a thousand developers pore over balance to make sure interactions are fair and frustration-free, the moment it goes live it will take seconds for someone to be obnoxious in those interactions.

That is why balancing is a process and not a state. Usually devs nerf what comes to be annoying or obnoxious as soon as possible.

I'm ready to fight gs/dagger shield spb as it was pre feb 20, but not that kitten we have now. I don't remember what exactly brings it to a poor state, but I guess it was dmg nerf and might makes right nerf

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

47 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

As I already said, before the recent reworks you had to run shield, endure pain and energy sigil (to not mention MMR and tether) to have enough sustain for a side node fight. And any thief that +1ed you was real bad news.

Not to mention that 19k HP and heavy armor doesn't go as far as people think it does. It really isn't comparable to block/distortion/evade/blind spam.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

13 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Not to mention that 19k HP and heavy armor doesn't go as far as people think it does. It really isn't comparable to block/distortion/evade/blind spam.

Avoiding damage is worth 3x more than any amount of health, armor, and healing. 

 

There will always be enough damage to kill anything, but not if nobody can land it.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

Avoiding damage is worth 3x more than any amount of health, armor, and healing. 

 

There will always be enough damage to kill anything, but not if nobody can land it.

Exactly, which is why FC props up Spellbreaker so much while the rest of warrior doesn't operate at the same level. If 19k HP and heavy armor were so great at mitigating damage you'd see more Berserkers and Core warriors around in competitive play.

[aymnad.9023]

I think the n°1 change would be decreasing full counter daze or increasing the cd. I wish that FC effects were tied to traits to be less overloaded but it does not look like it will get reworked at any point. The long unblockable daze means you have to use dodges, stunbreaks (both are resources you cannot afford to waste right now) or just not able to do any basic counterplay (like being able to use a skill [most have a cast time] to interrupt a heal, block, use a skill with an evade).

Then they could take look at the boon durations / icds on and / or the damage buffs in the defense traitline.

Edited December 21, 2022 by aymnad.9023

[Myror.7521]

@Spellhunter.9675 not gonna lie..... and don't laugh at me for this comment. But i actually love to Duell Hammer spellbraker. Tho could come with the fact im play gs Ham warr as my first tryhard build for years back then xd.

[oscuro.9720]

7 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Azure don't insult me, it's not readable even when standard enemy models are applied. I couldn't tell them apart reliably even when I was the one using those skills with a charr warrior I made for testing. Be serious for a moment, in a real engagement I see "character with dagger => they jump with hands in the air => dagger hits me". Adding some different audio queue or some particle effects on the unblockable one would be as a good way to fix this as any other.

You want a readable skill? Maul is readable because nothing has a big kittening bear, Arcing Slice is readable because nothing spins a huge kitten GS in place, Confusing Images is readable because it's some 1.5s windup, True Shot is readable because you see a guardian storing up light for 0.75s, Phantom Onslaught is readable because it's the only skill throwing yourself forward (ok, Nomad's Advance works pretty much the same but, truth be told, they're both skills you should block; they don't have similar skills one of which bypasses half of the defenses).

You know what's not readable? Two leaps on the same weapon, with similar range, similar cast time, similar cooldown, no discernible audio queue nor different particle effects, both bringing the kittening dagger on top of your head in the middle of a jump. PLEASE. These things drive me kittening mad, you guys choose the worst kittening hill to die on even when you're dead wrong.

I agree with you, the animations should be more distinct, though I believe the functions of the skills should remain, they are in a pretty good spot imo, and they are readable imo (and I know other people who can and do read them). 

I think what would work well is removing the particle effects from dagger 2, and keeping them on F1. That way one is a back spin leap with no particle effect, the other is a direct leap with gold particle effects. Do you think that would provide sufficient differentiation between the two?

[Terrorhuz.4695]

1 hour ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I agree with you, the animations should be more distinct, though I believe the functions of the skills should remain, they are in a pretty good spot imo, and they are readable imo (and I know other people who can and do read them). 

I think what would work well is removing the particle effects from dagger 2, and keeping them on F1. That way one is a back spin leap with no particle effect, the other is a direct leap with gold particle effects. Do you think that would provide sufficient differentiation between the two?

In a vacuum, maybe, but devs tend to hide some effects in 3rd person (vault, for example, has a white flash visible only on your character)

[Hederrain.9207]

Yet another round of mental gymnastics from warior mains.

Two animations that almost identical but they are so good that they can tell them apart even if you wake them up at the middle of the night !

[Sahne.6950]

i always did sympathize with those poor warriormains that stuck with their profession for years even tho it was garbage... 

 

what i dont like is, that the same people that were speaking alot of sense back then.. are now the ones that are heavily biased when it comes to anything warrior related.... 

"just bring boonrip and your fine"

okey... the only specs with reasonable boonrip/strip are mesmer, thief, necro, and spellbreaker         

necro gets stunlocked by defensebreakerr.....  

memesmer..... looses the sidenodebattle against condibreaker any day.....        

Thief...... yeah...... let me just sidenode against  defensbreaker with thief.....  

The only real answer here... is warrior itself..... The solution to defensebreaker is..... another warrior.....

The wicked thing is, that the classes that have wide access to boonrip... still get hardcountered by warrior so they will loose. The only answer would be thief with boonrip and blindspam and another warrior.

 

Condibreaker is absurd as a sidenoder and the quote "just bring boonrip"  is a joke to say the least. Because the builds with boonrip will still loose.

80% of builds cant deal with a Condibreaker thats sitting on their node, no matter what they do.

And that isnt a L2P thing either.  Im sorry warriormains... but this needs a nerf.

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Shagie.7612]

i think this guy's forgetting a lot of builds lost to time if this is the most broken thing he's seen in 10 years

[Zekent.3652]

49 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

 necro gets stunlocked by defensebreakerr.....  

memesmer..... looses the sidenodebattle against defensebreaker any day.....        

 

Yeah, necro almost always lost to warrior, except for mesmer, condi staff mesmer bullies warrior, specially if they're using Power Block.

[Hotride.2187]

18 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

You know what's not readable? Two leaps on the same weapon, with similar range, similar cast time, similar cooldown, no discernible audio queue nor different particle effects, both bringing the kittening dagger on top of your head in the middle of a jump. PLEASE. These things drive me kittening mad, you guys choose the worst kittening hill to die on even when you're dead wrong.

It would actually be nice for all unblockables to have some sort of particles or extra animation to warn you of what is coming. Half the time I eat something unblockable I didn't even register what it was. And you can say what you want about the 2 dagger leaps almost sharing an animation, but that animation is at least very visible. Your main problem is really that one is unblockable so its harder to face tank...

Edited December 22, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

32 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

It would actually be nice for all unblockables to have some sort of particles or extra animation to warn you of what is coming. Half the time I eat something unblockable I didn't even register what it was. And you can say what you want about the 2 dagger leaps almost sharing an animation, but that animation is at least very visible. Your main problem is really that one is unblockable so its harder to face tank...

 

You know Anet, they'll just put an icon on the buff bar or a small flash of white light on the character's hand that only they can really see and call it a day.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 hours ago, Hederrain.9207 said:

Yet another round of mental gymnastics from warior mains.

Two animations that almost identical but they are so good that they can tell them apart even if you wake them up at the middle of the night !

Go make one and see for yourself. First rule of learning to fight against something is to go play it yourself.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

2 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

It would actually be nice for all unblockables to have some sort of particles or extra animation to warn you of what is coming.

Want to go down that road, Metroid:Dread did it beautifully. Every attack has a white glimmer to signal if and when it can be parried, having something similar (like a bright aura on the weapon\arms of the character) to signal when a given attack is unblockable would be great. Some visual effects would need a lot of work, but honestly tweaking visual effects is just not hard to do.

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Go make one and see for yourself. First rule of learning to fight against something is to go play it yourself.

He did. On his first day of warrior he could hold some good five minutes against me, sometimes even more, and I've been playing mesmer for 6 years now.  Had he been able to bear playing gw2 for a couple weeks to practice a bit I have no doubts he would win 100% of the times.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Want to go down that road, Metroid:Dread did it beautifully. Every attack has a white glimmer to signal if and when it can be parried, having something similar (like a bright aura on the weapon\arms of the character) to signal when a given attack is unblockable would be great. Some visual effects would need a lot of work, but honestly tweaking visual effects is just not hard to do.

That's kinda what I had been thinking --a glowing, comet-like effect on the dagger when doing Breaching Strike would hopefully make it easier to distinguish from aura slicer.

[Farseer.1349]

On 12/21/2022 at 6:49 AM, Eddie.9143 said:

pretty simple imo, nerf the damage that defense spb can do.  if you go defense you shouldn't be able to kill 100-0 in a 1v1. 

Double. If you are tank, you are not allowed to deal even average damage. At least should not. In my opinion stats must be equalised. More defense - less attack. Of course, there should be be builds 50/50. So 3 radical builds: glasscannon, average, unkillable tank(even 1 vs glasscannon).

At second, all movement skills must be reworked. The most movememnt skills you got, the less damage output you should have. Pay attention that thief in other games deals tons of damage but cannot go invis each 10 seconds and jump away for 2 screens when in damger.

This is THE TRUE BALANCE. For now mesmer and thief are horrible to counter. So it's better to hunt any mesmer/thief as full party. Hunt such foe on whole map, not allowing him/her to "get fun". Yes, I hate such "fun" players. And do not forget about rangers. They must be nerfed too. Too much kiting, roots, roots, roots, knocks, poison. Ah, and yes, ranger can always blink away.

Ranger has too much damage for its survivability.

I will edit this a bit. All of you were glad to see Firebrand nerf. Agree? Should it be nerfed? Yes, definitely. Firebrand had TOO MUCH DAMAGE while being tanky. But can someone tell me, why wasn't the same done with all other build with the same potential? Why damage/tank guardian is no more, while mesmer damage/tank build still exists? is this FAIR to nerf guardian(which was never the top class) while leacing mesmer, thief and ranger untouched?

Just look at warrior and revenant. Are they balanced in term of damage/tankiness? Yes, totally balanced. So tell me, why heavy armor classes are balanced, while mediumand light armor classes are not?

Edited December 22, 2022 by Farseer.1349