Some suggestions and discussion with Thief mains on a Specter wishlist

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Since Specter seems to suffer in WvW rn, outside the occasional condi roamer I was wodnering a coule of things that could maybe give it a role in largescale at least:

Siphon becomes a 900 range AoE skill (like scavenger burst from Vindi) which applies all steal effects on enemies and grants barrier to allies when targeted on them (the AoE should prioritize enemies over allies if it can only choose 5 targets, unless it can be split for 5 + 5 for an effective 10-man interaction). 

I think this would make for an interesting concept and since Siphon is not a mobility skill anyway, it would not take away from it, unlike Steal or Swipe. 

Shadow Shroud skill 2 should get 900 range and become a larger AoE that rips a boon from each enemy affected (akin to a scourge shade, albeit not stationary).

Wells should become ranged except for the boon and Heal wells. I know many specters use them for mobility, but I'm sure this would benefit the spec more.

Power Well should strip a boon while doing damage.

Shadow Shroud could use it's current vit values only if you gain some of the lost initiative back, if not remove the penalty.

What is the main idea? Well, I thought and still think that Specter could very well become a contender with Scourge in the grand scheme of things, giving us a viable alternative and potent thief spec that could fullfil a hybrid role.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAUtrlhyUZrsUWLeqWnxfA-w this could be how a hybrid heal/strip build could look 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAUtrlhyUZrsUWLOsXnxdA-w something like this could be a more offensive dmg/strip build

Increasing the damage output for both offensive well utilities would def benefit the spec more.

But that's just my ideas and thoughts, what shape/form did you want specter to take in WvW (or the other modes, I'm just more knowledgable in wvw)?

Edited December 31, 2022 by Grand Marshal.4098

[kash.9213]

I feel like Specter is mostly alright in WvW. I could maybe use a little more group barrier up time for what I have to budget for it. 

I need those wells to move me around.

Siphon can be pretty surgical if you tag whoever is boosting the driver. An AOE with the modifiers could be wild. I could see that getting nerfed pretty quick and maybe we'd wish we had the original anyway, but then it would still be pretty light in some encounters where we just can't match other's frequency of output so I don't know.

Agree, that Grasping Shadows could use a better radius considering everything else being thrown down. It doesn't cause enough apprehension right now. 

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by kash.9213

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Im gonna be watching this thread, one thing related to thief but not primarily specter is that i want Scorpion wire to not only have a velocity increase to match Spear of Justice, but to also allow Basilisk Venom to proc AFTER the pull effect. Would make the skills synergize better

[Doggie.3184]

Nyaaan, this will all be a big dumb waste of time posting any of this since it's already been said

I tried pretty hard to make Specter work for WvW zergs in a multitude of ways and in the end just went back to bonk staff Daredevil and Engi if support when playing in squad. Thief is still generally unwanted for big fights and will get tossed into the dunce subgroup and receive no boon support because of it, which is sad since Daredevil can be pretty spectacular if given stability but oh well. No one will notice or care if your Specter single target heals them if you can even find them since party UI doesnt tell us who's in/out of range. The only real benefit it has is the laser ignoring anti-projectile walls allowing easy bag farm tagging.

Sc/p 3 Measured Shot shadowstep is still ultra annoying and prevents both offensive and defensive play at the same time and literally acts as a handicap on ourselves. Using it to it's full effectiveness requires me to very rapidly switch between allies, enemies and no-target constantly to go in the direction I want to (or rather avoid going in the direction I don't want to that will lead to death), which isn't fun or helpful. Making use of marking/calling target on an ally allows swapping quickly with tab targeting/focus target buttons but that means other teammates can't use the function without interfering with how I'm using it. The shadowstep backwards can be okay (till they flee) in 1 v 1 but honestly I don't need it with all the CC I can do, if I wanna move I'll WASD/dodge. We're also designed to stand in our Wells but can't use this attack inside the Boon well or we'll exit it before pulses finish.

So I still wish they'd just delete the shadowstep on Measured Shot and scrap heal on shadowstep for something better like... making Scepter 2 AoE or something on Scepter circle AoE and effect ourself. Single target healing, shadowstep spam healing and sacrificing shroud bar for healing... it's all just unnessasarily clunky mechanics for a payoff others achieve easier by just looking in your direction and holding button down like Med Kit 1... if people wanna bounce backwards annoyingly they can do it on Pistol/Dagger 3; which not many ever use anyways cuz it's annoying~ So it's annoying on Measured Shot too. Firebrand now has a choice to dump "initiative" into either healing or doing damage so why isn't that an option for our ini for group heals too?

Shroud is still easily blown up in WvW so it's not a reliable way to AoE heal your team, which is all we got other than what you told us not to do, which is spam Sword 2, which provides a heal others can do easier without being rubberbanded. Condi cleanse is lacking too since it's also... single target... ironically Daredevil DPS does a better job at condi cleanse support than Specter just by spamming combos.

Sc/D 3 Twilight Combo is still blocked by every player and AI it touches (pets, minions, npcs, etc) on the way to your targeted ally. Why has it been this way for a year? I absolutely can not use it for support in groups because of this flaw. You mine as well make it explode into an AoE if you can't fix it to only hit your targeted ally.

Specter is built for range overall. I still believe Wells should be ranged and flip over to a skill that teleports you into them if you choose to press it again~ like Shadow Flare except the teleport doesn't move the Well. Thief has too much forced movement spam, let us choose how to position ourselves with our skills. This still extends to things like Leaping Death Blossom too after 10 years of it's forced movement being annoying. Just unlock the forced movement and give Death Blossom WASD controls while using it. Weakening Charge as well, which even bugs out and no-clips through enemy players and does no damage during animation locked forced movement.

33% damage reduction would be better done through Protection for ourselves and allies instead of shroud only so we can actually play healer support. Healing Specter honestly feels like the worst thrown together class design I ever experienced in any MMO, and I've played a ton of them. It seems only designed with Spvp in mind, which I retired from after earning everything I needed and don't play anymore so I don't even wanna know how it performs there. Is it supposed to be Alacrity support only? Because it truly doesn't feel like it was ever intended to play healer.

Not being able to Steal without a target for Swiftness sucks, which is why it was a rollbacked patch a long time ago for Core/Daredevil when someone decided to make it require target and caused outrage. But then it became baseline for both Deadeye and Specter. Siphon on allies doesn't give Swiftness and can't be used without target. Siphon on... minipet does though and has for a year. I have to obtain it that way for ooc situations and it hasn't been nerfed unless you're planning on doing that now because I mentioned it. So why not just allow it to Thrill of the Crime solo/on allies with Siphon? 

A Quickness Support option is non existant for Thief.

Acrobatics still has no value on Specter, nor any other Specs.

Scepter sound effect is very loud to everyone.

Bonus wish: Make Daredevil Bound's AoE a bit bigger ;u Vindicator's is so massive and has the extra feature of being useable near cliffs and needing no enemy AoE awareness since full WASD movement. Bound doesn't need to be 'that' much bigger, just a small extension so that dodging from enemy position doesn't miss so easily. There's much forced movement on our frequently used attacks across all Elite Specs and Core~ really needs some QoL polish for it.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Doggie.3184

[Sarako Mindweaver.2786]

Really , all I want is for one of the wells to have a stun break and at least one of the wells to be a smoke field. It doesn't have to be all 5 wells but at least one so you can stealth is needed in my opinion.

[Valisha.8650]

Remove ally targeting. Yes, I know Specter was supposed to be designed around it, but it simply is not the case in reality.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

I have played some power Specter lately to see how it feels. Sure it can do some dmg on a Lord, but otherwise its (as expected) very disappointing.

The power well even with full zerk gear and Deadly arts mods hits like a noodle with no secondary effect unlike ALL necro wells.

Elite well is lackluster with no damage and the danger you enter to drop it. I think this should really be ranged if not the flipover skill with the port option Doggie mentioned. 

Daze well could also gain some higher damage, since interuption potential in zergs is minimum, let alone dropping yourself in the middle of a boonball to strip a boon (thank you anet for the sigil of absorption nerf, you clearly love boons).

Shadow Shroud is mid asf, you literally use it for the stab offcd, do a barrier jump and that's about it, better exit to gain some barrier since it doesn't even defend you, it actually locks you.

If Sc/Ps 3 could be changed, I'd say just make it an AoE style attack that tethers through numerous enemies for power dmg, some cripple/weakness and a boon removal. 

I forgot to mention how Shadowstep is actually an important component of a specter build since the double instant port is a great "heal"/cleanse option, less so repositioning ability.

As for the AoE steal, I think it would be fine. You can increase it's CD a bit, but realistically a 30 sec (if AoE) skill with 900 range that removes 10 boons (if it hits 5 enemies), dazes them, grants some offensive boons to allies and some small barrier with like a stack of poison and some blind on the enemies sounds strong, but really is very miniscule and can easily be tanked.

Not to mention it would make Specter important since it would be the only capable spec in removing stab/aegis on demand with this ability. 

 

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I have played some power Specter lately to see how it feels. Sure it can do some dmg on a Lord, but otherwise its (as expected) very disappointing.

The power well even with full zerk gear and Deadly arts mods hits like a noodle with no secondary effect unlike ALL necro wells.

Elite well is lackluster with no damage and the danger you enter to drop it. I think this should really be ranged if not the flipover skill with the port option Doggie mentioned. 

Daze well could also gain some higher damage, since interuption potential in zergs is minimum, let alone dropping yourself in the middle of a boonball to strip a boon (thank you anet for the sigil of absorption nerf, you clearly love boons).

Shadow Shroud is mid asf, you literally use it for the stab offcd, do a barrier jump and that's about it, better exit to gain some barrier since it doesn't even defend you, it actually locks you.

If Sc/Ps 3 could be changed, I'd say just make it an AoE style attack that tethers through numerous enemies for power dmg, some cripple/weakness and a boon removal. 

I forgot to mention how Shadowstep is actually an important component of a specter build since the double instant port is a great "heal"/cleanse option, less so repositioning ability.

As for the AoE steal, I think it would be fine. You can increase it's CD a bit, but realistically a 30 sec (if AoE) skill with 900 range that removes 10 boons (if it hits 5 enemies), dazes them, grants some offensive boons to allies and some small barrier with like a stack of poison and some blind on the enemies sounds strong, but really is very miniscule and can easily be tanked.

Not to mention it would make Specter important since it would be the only capable spec in removing stab/aegis on demand with this ability. 

 

I use Wells a lot but almost never dive right into a zerg. That's more for dropping on a lane where you know friends or enemies are about to be around zergs.

I like all the shroud skills and use them all consistently. Grasping Shadows and Dawn's Repose could use better radius though. 

There is some splash or bleed through from Endless Night but that should extend and maybe be effective depending on how many splashes, similar to Dancing Dagger bounce. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

17 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

I use Wells a lot but almost never dive right into a zerg. That's more for dropping on a lane where you know friends or enemies are about to be around zergs.

I like all the shroud skills and use them all consistently. Grasping Shadows and Dawn's Repose could use better radius though. 

There is some splash or bleed through from Endless Night but that should extend and maybe be effective depending on how many splashes, similar to Dancing Dagger bounce. 

Yeah targeting the fringes of the enemy squad is def an option and the safe route. 

But really, you basically get 30% or less value from your skills. You need to be able to face a zerg head-on temporarily to truly be useful in that role (as in drop dmg on enemy, dodge through type of thing). 

Shroud skills are fun in smaller scale but feel too unimpactful the more enemies appear. 

As I said, skill 2 bigger aoe and range with a boon corrupted per foe, skill 5 a 5 pulse skill that grants stab each second and deal dmg to enemies around you while granting some barrier to you and allies (cd can be tweaked) would make it even better. 

Skill 4 could use a quicker animation since it's meant to do the big dmg. 

Cover condies can be whatever, bleed, poison, cripple all work decently. 

Major lost chance on anet's part to making specter a powerful utility teamfighter/strip spec as opposed to the mega dps/soft utility that daredevil offers. 

[Chips.7968]

On 1/1/2023 at 4:19 AM, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Im gonna be watching this thread, one thing related to thief but not primarily specter is that i want Scorpion wire to not only have a velocity increase to match Spear of Justice, but to also allow Basilisk Venom to proc AFTER the pull effect. Would make the skills synergize better

With basi does it currently work as a pull against players with aegis? Or 1 stack of stability? How about when you've got it applying basi venom *after* the attempted pull.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

2 hours ago, Chips.7968 said:

With basi does it currently work as a pull against players with aegis? Or 1 stack of stability? How about when you've got it applying basi venom *after* the attempted pull.

it stuns and doesnt pull right now.. its unblockable so the aegis would probably be removed or ignored, 1 stability would be removed, if more remain then no stun because it triggers same time as the hit

[Doggie.3184]

Can also add to the wishlist for our Shroud to use legendary effects like Necro's does. 🙂

[Wesuteru.9132]

Not a WvW player, but I think for specter to be considered a viable support (in PvE), we really need more team boon application. The other supports (druid, mechanist, firebrand, tempest) get like 5 or-so boons to apply and keep up 100% of the time, and we only get 1 (alacrity, which they all have too). 

Also echoing the sentiment that we need more AoE to begin with. Scepter 2 would be a great target for that because currently it's a bit of a dead skill.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Wesuteru.9132

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Agreed. 

14 hours ago, Wesuteru.9132 said:

Not a WvW player, but I think for specter to be considered a viable support (in PvE), we really need more team boon application. The other supports (druid, mechanist, firebrand, tempest) get like 5 or-so boons to apply and keep up 100% of the time, and we only get 1 (alacrity, which they all have too). 

Also echoing the sentiment that we need more AoE to begin with. Scepter 2 would be a great target for that because currently it's a bit of a dead skill.

Scepter 2 could use a ranged AoE indicator, or function as a targeted AoE (either a Guard/Necro Scepter approach or a "cause burst of dmg/heal around enemy target).

Both Scepter 3 combinations need to become tether-like and pierce through numerous enemies and imo should not need to target an enemy. 

And ofc Shorud skills need bigger AoEs, especially 2 and 4, with 5 gaining a pulsing boon/dmg approach to it.

[Zacchary.6183]

I just want Greatsword next xpac. And its going to be the last time I mess with it or shill it. Personally think it's pretty dumb lore-wise that a lightweight spellcaster (Mesmer) can wield it just fine but anet can't justify thief using it.

EDIT: Oh and ele with hammer.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Zacchary.6183

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

1 hour ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

I just want Greatsword next xpac. And its going to be the last time I mess with it or shill it. Personally think it's pretty dumb lore-wise that a lightweight spellcaster (Mesmer) can wield it just fine but anet can't justify thief using it.

EDIT: Oh and ele with hammer.

Ele has a hammer!

[Doggie.3184]

The problem with Greatsword is I don't want another Deadeye situation where our elite spec weapon does the same thing a weapon we already have does instead of just buffing our previous weapon. Pistol/Pistol and Rifle are literally the same exact single-target ranged weapon concept with a few tweaks like it just having more range.

Bola/Spotter shot: Immobalizes!

Unload/Three Round: Rapid fire that gives might!

Black Powder/Sniper Cover: Both skills are Black powder but ones a circle and others a line!

Both weapons have no AoE. Pierce is meant for bows. Cones, bounce and explosions work better on bullets, which is why everyone else has it.

Headshot and Retreat are the only things different. The creativity is lacking a lot.

Kneel is just a self inflicted handicap to weaken the weapon, just like the Shadowstep on Scepter/Pistol 3's Measured Shot.

I never found it worth an entire new weapon without adding more and I spent the last several years ignoring Deadeye as my most hated spec. I gave it another shot for a while after buff but still don't like using the Rifle enough. Everything unique about Pistols was deleted for the sake of giving us a Rifle too (Ricochet and range nerf) and I'll forever wish to have my old Pistols back.

They may not have the creativity to make Greatsword different enough from Staff and it'll all be the same animations for most of it I'm sure too.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Doggie.3184

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

1 hour ago, Doggie.3184 said:

The problem with Greatsword is I don't want another Deadeye situation where our elite spec weapon does the same thing a weapon we already have does instead of just buffing our previous weapon. Pistol/Pistol and Rifle are literally the same exact single-target ranged weapon concept with a few tweaks like it just having more range.

Bola/Spotter shot: Immobalizes!

Unload/Three Round: Rapid fire that gives might!

Black Powder/Sniper Cover: Both skills are Black powder but ones a circle and others a line!

Both weapons have no AoE. Pierce is meant for bows. Cones, bounce and explosions work better on bullets, which is why everyone else has it.

Headshot and Retreat are the only things different. The creativity is lacking a lot.

Kneel is just a self inflicted handicap to weaken the weapon, just like the Shadowstep on Scepter/Pistol 3's Measured Shot.

I never found it worth an entire new weapon without adding more and I spent the last several years ignoring Deadeye as my most hated spec. I gave it another shot for a while after buff but still don't like using the Rifle enough. Everything unique about Pistols was deleted for the sake of giving us a Rifle too (Ricochet and range nerf) and I'll forever wish to have my old Pistols back.

They may not have the creativity to make Greatsword different enough from Staff and it'll all be the same animations for most of it I'm sure too.

would be nice to be able to jump shot to NOT port away or toward targets like on sword and stuff

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

It would be nice if the specter elite well did some sort of aoe boon steal for every pulse that a enemy is in it. It could lead to some pretty interesting gameplay.

[Lightsbane.9012]

aoe heals. dps buff on endless night so it can compete with twilight combo.

[Doggie.3184]

Thief is really dependant on Shortbow for AoE but Specter can't really make good use of Shortbow without Torment on it and it's not too great at dumping ini fast for shroud generation (plus it's never been a viable main weapon.) So I'm surprised they didn't make Shroud replace it by having it's AA have a decent radius to compete with Trick Shot and a Cluster Bomb sized radius on the Shroud 2. So that'd be a nice alternative to Scepter being boring single target only and give us more reason to use the Shroud Bar instead of dump it all on a heal. Still want legendary effects to work with Shroud though. A caster class without AoE is so fooooo.

[Phewlm.3148]

Specter is my favourite elite specialization even though it feels unpolished. There are so many suggestions here that would make it way smoother and more fun. Here are a couple more suggestions:

 

Well of gloom to give regen instead of cripple.

 

Change Shadowsquall into an attack/heal similar to chain lightning/chain heal from WoW/Warcraft. This would improve Specter's aoe dmg, as well as healing, and increase the usefulness of personal stealth in group combat. Now it feels like a silly mirage scepter copy pasta.

 

Turn Shadow Sap into a ground targeted aoe like necro's Grasping Dead and give it a damaging condition. Adjust initiative cost and potency for balance.

 

Give us a trait to increase the number of tethered targets for more support.

 

Move alac application to damaging wells or something else. Let us be able to use utility wells reactively and not off cooldown.

 

Reduce aftercast/improve animation speed on scepter dual skills to improve smoothness. Thief feels reactive and fast. Dual skills and some wells on Specter does imo not match the feel of the thief class.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

At the moment the class fails hard as a support as a lot of the heals/barrier/cleanse etc is from shadow arts which requires stealth access, and there's no room on the bar for stealth utilities if we have to take three wells plus spider venom to keep up alacrity. Change alacrity to be a pulsing boon while the specter is in shroud and keep the trait requirement to make it a build choice. That gives you a reason to stay in shroud, takes away the forced utility choices, makes it easier to actually land alac on your allies and frankly would be a lot more fun to play all round. Right now the class just feels awkward to play, think about how it can be fun but also strong like how mechanist plays. 

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

On 2/24/2023 at 4:30 AM, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

At the moment the class fails hard as a support as a lot of the heals/barrier/cleanse etc is from shadow arts which requires stealth access, and there's no room on the bar for stealth utilities if we have to take three wells plus spider venom to keep up alacrity. Change alacrity to be a pulsing boon while the specter is in shroud and keep the trait requirement to make it a build choice. That gives you a reason to stay in shroud, takes away the forced utility choices, makes it easier to actually land alac on your allies and frankly would be a lot more fun to play all round. Right now the class just feels awkward to play, think about how it can be fun but also strong like how mechanist plays. 

100% agree. I always found it weird that SA was zeroed in on for specter in previous patches.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

How would you guys feel about having tradeoffs in support traits for specter?

At present ANet are nerfing support options like shroud health, consume shadows etc to keep a handle on DPS/PvP builds while trying to encourage supportive play by incentivising SA over dps lines, and frankly it's not working well.

I don't like the idea of tradeoff traits in general like berserker had, but frankly that might be a good idea in this case. For instance, consume shadows could have that insane multiplier again so you can use it as an area res, give it a bonus to shroud health so you have as much shroud as you used to, but have it come with a penalty of reducing all damage by 50%.

That way you could stop nerfing the hell out of the support aspects of specter, keep DPS traits as they are, and basically make it so if you choose to be a support you'll be a stupidly powerful support but your dps will be close to zero.

This would obviously coincide with some solution to the alac being paired to wells problem, like making it so that when you apply torment you pulse alac or something like that. That way minors like rottweiler venom still make sense for DPS builds but if you build support you still prioritise spreading the venom, but the payoff is area wide alac plus maybe might instead of condition damage. 

Edit: the only drawback would be for tagging mobs in PvE I guess. You'd either have to have enough damage to make sure you get credit for kills or figure out another way to get participation in events. I might make this into a separate thread actually. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Jugglemonkey.8741