Celestial gear in WvW thoughts

[Sereath.1428]

Either remove the concentration or the toughness/vitality. Staying alive forever while dealing so much damage is wack.

Edited January 11, 2023 by XxsdgxX.8109

[Dawdler.8521]

13 minutes ago, XxsdgxX.8109 said:

Either remove the concentration or the toughness/vitality. 

Removing either part of celestial is just a halfarsed way for the real solution - the gear system was built for 3 stat gear because you are meant to sacrifice stats for your builds.

Even 4 stats is stretching it but Anet figured it out for sPvP (3 and 4 mostly has the same total). 

WvW will never see it fixed, it would displease Anets PvE overlords if their numbers are less than before.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Its always going to be OP on classes that have 10k base health especially because those classes are balanced around that health, at least in PvP and WvW. In PvE the devs forgot classes have a different health pools entirely.

 

This is also why Marauder's was way more common than Berserker's, plus it crit caps easier.

 

Celestial is an insanely useful set and removing it from PvP caused a major problem for many builds. Simply removing it from WvW will do nothing but lower build desparity there, too. The best bet is to place a debuff on the player that halves the Concentration and Expertise (so max 20% to both) when entering a WvW map.

 

The rest of the stats are fine on the set, it just provides too much condition and boon duration. Maybe reduce the Toughness, Vitality and Healing Power a bit too since they're exponential to each other.

 

We could see something like:

Main stat: Power, Precision, Ferocity, Condition damage (think super-Grieving), 100% of now.

Secondary stat: Toughness, Vitality, Healing Power, 75% of now.

Tertiary stat: Concentration, Expertise, 50% of now.

 

This would result in an overall reduction of 20% in stat points as well, bring it more in line with three-stat and four-stat mixes that players tend to wear on non-Celestial builds.

 

Just don't change it in PvE, please. It already sees very limited use in this game mode and its weakness there is why Concentration and Expertise were added to begin with. If anything it needs to be even stronger there than it is now, since its still not used by very many builds.

 

In fact, maybe even adopt this same tri-tier system in PvE and increase the overall stats to compensate, while keeping the reduced values for WvW.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Mariyuuna.6508

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Come on now Grimm, you know where that will lead. Makes no sense they've been constantly nerfing strips for more than a year (even in the same patch they made that statement lmao), then suddenly do a review and think they went too far? They'll probably end up taking 5secs off the 30sec boon cap and call it day. 🤭

 

ikr, but one can hope. One boon ball to rule them all. 

[Zyreva.1078]

19 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

I think you've demonstrated that you didn't understand the point.

No, i get it. Different classes have different base stats, traits and skills and synergise differently with various (gear) stats. But nothing of that justifies the current state of cele.

19 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

So, moving from eg., Cele on a Guard to Mara to Zerk moves you further into a niche, a one dimensional glass cannon.

Yea, because full glass gimmick has been the only choice ever for guard pre cele buffs ...

You are talking as if there is nothing besides bloated cele and full zerk. But it's not that there are no alternatives, they are just rendered useless by how op cele is. And that's why cele itself is the problem and why it needs to be adressed directly.

18 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Nah, something like warrior rifle would really shine with that kind of stat set. Reaper would too.

Garbage + garbage doesn't result in something other than garbage.

Edited January 11, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

12 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

 

Garbage + garbage doesn't result in something other than garbage.

Or is it that some things are garbage because the right stat combo doesn't exist.

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Or is it that some things are garbage because the right stat combo doesn't exist.

No, just no.

There's stat combination to cover pretty much anything needed.

You could just go zerk + few bringer's pieces + condi duration rune/food to get a glass power build with extra condi duration, if you think that's what's needed to make your rifle war shine.

Edited January 11, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Sahne.6950]

On 1/10/2023 at 5:30 PM, thechief.3609 said:

Hey guys i made this little video with my 2 cents on the use of cele gear in wvw and i think i needs a look at would love to know peoples suggestions and thoughts on the matter

 

https://youtu.be/XUWuS2aGltQ

If Might would give a flat +1% bonus to the stats, so in a way behave like Vulnerability, instead of the 30+30, the cele problem wouldnt exist in wvw.

Celebuilds wouldnt reach close the levels of power/condidamage they do now. a stack might would only give between 6 and 13 power/condidamage.

Conditionbuilds would also reach lower numbers, as they averagly have 2000 condiD, so a stack would give round about 20 each.

But powerbuilds that are close to 3000 power wouldnt feel a difference at all.

 

This simple change could potentially fix the roaming meta.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[coro.3176]

On 1/10/2023 at 9:24 AM, subversiontwo.7501 said:

On top of everything you have the boon- and condition systems that need overhaul too and much of what may be OP on Celestal stats generally comes from that boons and conditions that used to be dedicated and part of certain classes core design has been spread out and made more accessible over the years (mostly due to raid-balance profileration until splits).

There are many ways to skin this cat, but most people voicing concerns on the forum tend to just want Celestial nerfed because they play things that are equally good without it (while still being higher profilerated eg., roamers, themselves; ie., Thieves and Rangers unhappy with having to contend with both natural condition- [eg., Mesmers] and hybrid-classes [eg., Eles] in the roaming space).

I think this is basically right.

At present, some builds both can use and need to use more stats than others in order to "work". Some builds are glass cannons that want to end fights without taking any hits. Others are bruisers that expect to soak a ton of damage in the course of their play. Obviously, the former can safely minmax away defensive stats and focus on pure offence, since if they're getting hit, they've probably already lost. A bruiser needs both defense and offense.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

46 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

No, just no.

There's stat combination to cover pretty much anything needed.

You could just go zerk + few bringer's pieces + condi duration rune/food to get a glass power build with extra condi duration, if you think that's what's needed to make your rifle war shine.

Or, we can give it a proper stat set. Soft CCs, and debuffs like Vuln are important to power builds too. Take a Bringer's piece or two won't cut it like taking a dual Power/Expertise main stat set would.

[Zyreva.1078]

13 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Or, we can give it a proper stat set. Soft CCs, and debuffs like Vuln are important to power builds too. Take a Bringer's piece or two won't cut it like taking a dual Power/Expertise main stat set would.

Not worth the huge stat loss. You are giving up like 1k+ stats against anything that cleanses your stuff.

Just think about it: A full cele rifle war would deal about the same dmg to your "glass condi duration" rifle war as the latter would deal to the cele war before factoring in any boons, because the difference in power gets countered by the difference in armor. Which means the cele war would flat out win any 1vs1 due to higher hp and healing. Again, before factoring in any boons or condi dmg, which would tip the favour even further towards cele. More condi duration will never make up for the difference in sustain and we are looking at a worst case scenario for cele here, with zero damage condis or boons.

Edited January 11, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Not worth the huge stat loss. You are giving up like 1k+ stats against anything that cleanses your stuff.

Just think about it: A full cele rifle war would deal about the same dmg to your "glass condi duration" rifle war as the latter would deal to the cele war before factoring in any boons, because the difference in power gets countered by the difference in armor. Which means the cele war would flat out win any 1vs1 due to higher hp and healing. Again, before factoring in any boons or condi dmg, which would tip the favour even further towards cele. More condi duration will never make up for the difference in sustain and we are looking at a worse case scenario for cele here, with zero damage condis or boons.

There is about 2k of wasted stats in the cele build, it doesn't need the concentration, healing power, or condition damage. Cleanses aren't an issue when you have ammo and a skill to recharge them. Rifle played in that way is extremely good in locking down a target and setting up a spike for a teammate but lacks in damage itself. Having a P|E/Pr|F set or some other variant of that would let it do better damage.

[Zyreva.1078]

8 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

There is about 2k of wasted stats in the cele build,

And cele would still be better ...

But ofc if you are relying on teammates to carry you against outnumbered targets, it doesn't matter what gear you use ...

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

And cele would still be better ...

But ofc if you are relying on teammates to carry you against outnumbered targets, it doesn't matter what gear you use ...

No. A build that doesn't rely on boons or conditions for damage is a waste of cele. Rifle lacks in damage overall, but it has lots of useful condis that help those with damage to take out a target, but it needs expertise to leverage that, and expertise/condition duration is not easy to get with power stats without condition damage coming along with it.

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Celebuilds wouldnt reach close the levels of power/condidamage they do now. a stack might would only give between 6 and 13 power/condidamage.

Cele builds have a minimum of 1,6k power.

Also global changes like that, which affect everything regardless of how op or not it is, rarely result in better balance and it certainly wouldn't fix cele, would just make cele vs cele duels even more stale, but won't help non cele builds that still get outsustained and outpressured.

And since we have once already been in a state where cele was much more balanced than it is right now, there is no need for experiments.

Edited January 11, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Xenesis.6389]

19 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Celestial is an insanely useful set and removing it from PvP caused a major problem for many builds. Simply removing it from WvW will do nothing but lower build desparity there, too. The best bet is to place a debuff on the player that halves the Concentration and Expertise (so max 20% to both) when entering a WvW map.

 

The rest of the stats are fine on the set, it just provides too much condition and boon duration. Maybe reduce the Toughness, Vitality and Healing Power a bit too since they're exponential to each other.

We have 40+ stat sets and like 80+ rune sets in the game, they'll survive. No reason to have access to a high level of all stats at once, you want to do power damage then take power stat sets, you want condition damage then take condition stat sets, you want in between take like glass grievers, you want healing then take support stat sets. But you should not have access to all of the above AND extra stats on top of it, even worse when classes that can pump out 25 might and defensive boons easily, so there's no actual disadvantage compared to a 3 or 4 stat set.

The only reason for the addition was to raise the ground floor on stats for newb/bad players, even their level 80 boost puts you in celestial gear now. But it doesn't matter how you try to raise the ground floor on gear or skills(low intensity builds), the better players will just as well get better from the changes and the gaps will still be there.

Concentration and expertise should have never ever been added to celestial, or at the very least the rest of the stats should have ben adjusted down for the addition. End of story.

[Dagger.2035]

I feel like everything has tradeoffs and removing celestial seems to be a drastic solution.  Maybe buffing power damage coefficients and condition damage scaling is a better option to improve non-hybrid builds.  This will also lessen the impact of running with defensive stats.

Just to provide a different perspective in this thread, I usually roam with a S/D thief.  This tends to have an easy match up against celestial bruiser builds.  They provide me with an endless supply of boons to steal and I out sustain them by evading most of their damage.  Since these builds have low damage, I can also choose to disengage and reset the fight if I make too many mistakes.

[Riba.3271]

Cele and minstrel need to be tuned down from 15 concentration for 1% boon duration to 25 concentration for 1% boon duration.

If you want small amounts of boon duration, you can easily get it from runes, but when you start reaching 40%+, permaboons become bit brainless. Especially in groups but even in roaming you should have to apply boons when you need them rather than having them up always.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Answer is a large-scale version of the sPvP amulet system.  No food, no enhancements, and limited sigil and rune selection.

Perfect balance scenario for them and no diversity for us.

Is this good or bad? Guess you have to choose unmitigated build diversity vs. balance.  

[Sahne.6950]

4 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Especially in groups but even in roaming you should have to apply boons when you need them rather than having them up always.

thats so 2014.

[TheGrimm.5624]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Answer is a large-scale version of the sPvP amulet system.  No food, no enhancements, and limited sigil and rune selection.

Perfect balance scenario for them and no diversity for us.

Is this good or bad? Guess you have to choose unmitigated build diversity vs. balance.  

 

Hot topic there. Short answer is no. sPvP amulet is a failure. In WvW it would be even worse. Anet has the numbers for player  investments don't need to go further there.

[Riba.3271]

13 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Answer is a large-scale version of the sPvP amulet system.  No food, no enhancements, and limited sigil and rune selection.

There is no reason to have only 1 amulet giving 100% of the stats as it only hurts build diversity.

 

For example if you had 4 amulets with each having 25% total stats, you could add extra limitations to some more cheesy stats like celestial, trailblazer or minstrel to 25% or 50% of total stats.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

12 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Hot topic there. Short answer is no. sPvP amulet is a failure. In WvW it would be even worse. Anet has the numbers for player  investments don't need to go further there.

 

Judging by activity, the only reason I can see WvW player time would rank higher is due to the ease of rewards compared to sPvP.  That is, for WvW you don't need to actually fight any players 90% of the time unless you go out of your way and actually want to.  

For amulet, I don't think it's a failure I think that WvW will never accept it just as they never accept WvW is a subset of PvE.  Everyone wants to keep all the PvE things like armor stats, runes, sigils, etc. and then complains when it isn't balanced.

This is the mistake to me on anet's part, trying to straddle the line betwteen PvE balance and 'almost PvE but with some pvp features' balance.  There should just be two balances, one for PvE and one for competitive.

But yes, I will get a lot of disagreement with this, mostly by people that won't ever step into PvP but insist on 'dueling' in WvW like it's a sport.  As sure, there are macro problems here, but you don't ever seem to see complaints about blob vs blob balance, only random topics about smallscale when those would be better off just going into sPvP for that.  

So the tldr; is, community wants PvE stats then they get PvE style balance.  They should not nerf anything specifically for WvW, should just adapt using the build diversity you so long for.  

[TheGrimm.5624]

4 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Judging by activity, the only reason I can see WvW player time would rank higher is due to the ease of rewards compared to sPvP.  That is, for WvW you don't need to actually fight any players 90% of the time unless you go out of your way and actually want to.  

For amulet, I don't think it's a failure I think that WvW will never accept it just as they never accept WvW is a subset of PvE.  Everyone wants to keep all the PvE things like armor stats, runes, sigils, etc. and then complains when it isn't balanced.

This is the mistake to me on anet's part, trying to straddle the line betwteen PvE balance and 'almost PvE but with some pvp features' balance.  There should just be two balances, one for PvE and one for competitive.

But yes, I will get a lot of disagreement with this, mostly by people that won't ever step into PvP but insist on 'dueling' in WvW like it's a sport.  As sure, there are macro problems here, but you don't ever seem to see complaints about blob vs blob balance, only random topics about smallscale when those would be better off just going into sPvP for that.  

So the tldr; is, community wants PvE stats then they get PvE style balance.  They should not nerf anything specifically for WvW, should just adapt using the build diversity you so long for.  

Personally I don't know why people think we might ever have what is termed as balanced when there are so many variables out there. Largescale or smallscale. How could you ever balance this mode when the fight might a 50v50 or a 50v5. Just not realistic. All you can hope for are outliers being addressed, those both over and those under performing. The reason I myself am against the amulet style system for WvW is because I want to be able to create builds that fit roles I see need for. ANet removed stats from sPvP for a number of reasons and one of those was because people were too tanky and it slowed the action. I run tanky in WvW because of a slow internet connection and as a Roamer/Havoc player I need to plan to get jumped by a warband or zerg and may need to get in and get out and plan on getting hit a lot along the way. I admit I am one of those that go by 'dead deeps do no deeps', so plan on taking hits. One person's bad build might be a good build for what role they might be running. We don't need more limits to builds when numbers are always an unknown already. 

[DeceiverX.8361]

8 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Personally I don't know why people think we might ever have what is termed as balanced when there are so many variables out there. Largescale or smallscale. How could you ever balance this mode when the fight might a 50v50 or a 50v5. Just not realistic. All you can hope for are outliers being addressed, those both over and those under performing. The reason I myself am against the amulet style system for WvW is because I want to be able to create builds that fit roles I see need for. ANet removed stats from sPvP for a number of reasons and one of those was because people were too tanky and it slowed the action. I run tanky in WvW because of a slow internet connection and as a Roamer/Havoc player I need to plan to get jumped by a warband or zerg and may need to get in and get out and plan on getting hit a lot along the way. I admit I am one of those that go by 'dead deeps do no deeps', so plan on taking hits. One person's bad build might be a good build for what role they might be running. We don't need more limits to builds when numbers are always an unknown already. 

I mean, it used to be that if you had an omniblob you were really slow to traverse the map and those groups of 5 would choke you out of all your supply and minor objectives enough to flip the map faster than you could.

Problem is mobility creep via everyone having so much superspeed and warclaw means small groups don't actually get to influence the map and are more or less forced to fight the omniblob to do anything.  Or "cloud" with a metric ton of players and just run away while conquering/hiding in PvE objectives like roaches.

Let's not pretend like boons aren't breaking the game in smallscale and organized play, either.  When was the last time you blasted a water field for healing?  It used to be that coordinated efforts to blast one field would let players eat a significant amount of raw skills from an enemy group.  With direct support so potent, there's significant strength in pugs just spamming heals and boons rather than actually coordinating in an organized fashion to save skills for group utility like blasting or creating said fields.  Stat-side power creep from expansion stat combos and perma-boons has also largely offset this purpose, too.

The problem is you just can't have good PvP when the name of the game is the PvE anime-power-fantasy where people scream if numbers don't go up, if the skills aren't stronger, and the VFX more intense.

The game's competitive modes are doomed, and they have been for years.

Edited January 13, 2023 by DeceiverX.8361