Celestial gear in WvW thoughts

[Gotejjeken.1267]

9 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Personally I don't know why people think we might ever have what is termed as balanced when there are so many variables out there. Largescale or smallscale. How could you ever balance this mode when the fight might a 50v50 or a 50v5. Just not realistic. All you can hope for are outliers being addressed, those both over and those under performing. The reason I myself am against the amulet style system for WvW is because I want to be able to create builds that fit roles I see need for. ANet removed stats from sPvP for a number of reasons and one of those was because people were too tanky and it slowed the action. I run tanky in WvW because of a slow internet connection and as a Roamer/Havoc player I need to plan to get jumped by a warband or zerg and may need to get in and get out and plan on getting hit a lot along the way. I admit I am one of those that go by 'dead deeps do no deeps', so plan on taking hits. One person's bad build might be a good build for what role they might be running. We don't need more limits to builds when numbers are always an unknown already. 

 

True, I don't really long for an amulet style in WvW, more of a devil's advocate point for how any semblance of balance could be achieved.  

 

1 hour ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

The problem is you just can't have good PvP when the name of the game is the PvE anime-power-fantasy where people scream if numbers don't go up, if the skills aren't stronger, and the VFX more intense.

The game's competitive modes are doomed, and they have been for years.

 

Pretty much, GW2 balance is like chess if every piece was a Queen.  

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

I wonder, would Celestial like it is today, be considered a balanced Stat back when the damage was super high like PvE??

Or maybe it would exacerbate the problem, and Celestial would be even more required to survive than it is today.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

20 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Judging by activity, the only reason I can see WvW player time would rank higher is due to the ease of rewards compared to sPvP.  That is, for WvW you don't need to actually fight any players 90% of the time unless you go out of your way and actually want to.  

For amulet, I don't think it's a failure I think that WvW will never accept it just as they never accept WvW is a subset of PvE.  Everyone wants to keep all the PvE things like armor stats, runes, sigils, etc. and then complains when it isn't balanced.

Part of that problem is that they are keeping the PvE gear but trying to force PvP balancing on top of it.

20 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

There should just be two balances, one for PvE and one for competitive.

They did that in Feb2020, turns out it wasn't very good. Now we have PvE tanks and have PvP skills to deal with them (CC dealing no damage anyone?)

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:

I wonder, would Celestial like it is today, be considered a balanced Stat back when the damage was super high like PvE??

Or maybe it would exacerbate the problem, and Celestial would be even more required to survive than it is today.

I don't think we needed the mass nerf we got. I admit I run more on the tank side because of a slower internet connection so I can't count on reaction time as much so have to build for that. I think they were rating combat using Glass versus Glass numbers. Same as they did with the siege nerfs. People running more defensive could already stand in some siege fire before. Same with Cele, it became even more tanky after the nerf patch, but I don't think builds using it were calling for the damage/wet noodle approach to the fights. To be fair on the other side, I didn't see people asking for the changes to concentration or expertise either so I don't know where that came from either. I may have made a kitten of me but I assumed it was from ANet running numbers and builds and saw that Cele was low in the build equations, but I can't say that for sure. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

They did that in Feb2020, turns out it wasn't very good. Now we have PvE tanks and have PvP skills to deal with them (CC dealing no damage anyone?)

 

Yeah, the nerf to CC damage was ill thought out as it disproportionally affects Warrior; but I don't know why CC ever did damage to begin with.  It just seems cleaner to have CC set up a burst skill which does damage, but that's a whole different discussion (that I know has been around since said 2020 patch).

The point about PvE gear with PvP balance is a good one as that is what WvW is, and without fully making it a PvP system through amulet or something I don't think it's a fixable issue.  

Guess WvW at this point is just 'embrace the chaos'.  

[Reborn.2934]

On 1/10/2023 at 6:30 PM, thechief.3609 said:

Hey guys i made this little video with my 2 cents on the use of cele gear in wvw and i think i needs a look at would love to know peoples suggestions and thoughts on the matter

 

https://youtu.be/XUWuS2aGltQ

 

since you want our opinions  and thoughts i will start with what you total ignored on your video,

 

CONDITION DAMAGE 

 

condition damage is not a side source of damage as you said and this is why you total ignored in your video. 

 

Also condition damage has a factor that makes it more powerful and this is the Expertise because makes the D.O.T.s hit longer time while power's factor is the concentration because makes the boons (like might & fury) last longer and this is why power builds roamers and the zergs invest on concentration. Generally speaking these are the 2 rules for the meta builds.

 

1. Power Build = Concentration.
2. Condition Build = Expertise.

 

if you want to understand why Traiblazer is better armor than celestial in specific CONDITION GODS builds watch the video  (that is not my video and not my words that said that with Traiblazer he had better DPS than celestial) on this blog post where i say in the title... During 2022 WvW Roamers are still Blaming the Armor Stats instead of... Skills and Traits! and it seems this blame on celestial will continue during 2023... 

 

for the last i will say what i have said many times. Celestial is a time consuming investement in this game and it should reward the players that invest on it and the reward is not the surpermacy of the gear against other gears but the fact that the player who has celestial can do zerging with the guild and roaming with it without someone say him/her that it is a bad choise. not the best choise for the roles that should play but not bad too!

 

p.s. if i haven't convinced you with what i already said go roaming with celestial and with a legacy build (not a expansion build)  and tell us  after what happened if celestial is OP as you say :p 

 

i am sure you will not kill anyone with a legacy build on Celestial as roamer because the OP is not coming from celestial but from the skills and traits!

 

 

[Zyreva.1078]

14 minutes ago, Reborn.2934 said:

Celestial is a time consuming investement in this game and it should reward the players that invest on it

Ah yes, the huge time consuming act of ... using a lvl 80 boost, free stat selectable armor or the trading post.

Edited January 14, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Reborn.2934]

2 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Ah yes, the huge time consuming act of ... using a lvl 80 boost, free stat selectable armor or the trading post.

 

ONE CHARACTER...

what about the rest 4 characters or more?

 

p.s. on my GW2 times there weren't CHARACTER BOOSTs ... sorry for your loss dude

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Reborn.2934

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

4 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Celestial is a time consuming investement in this game and it should reward the players that invest on it

If Anet worked like that, Legendary Gear would be 50% stronger than Ascended in WvW lol.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Brandon Uzumaki.1524

[Xenesis.6389]

7 minutes ago, Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:

If Anet worked like that, Legendary Gear would be 50% stronger than Ascended in WvW lol.

More than double the stats considering the amount of time and mats and tickets you need to sink into it after ascended pre. 🤭

[Telgum.6071]

8 hours ago, Reborn.2934 said:

 

since you want our opinions  and thoughts i will start with what you total ignored on your video,

 

CONDITION DAMAGE 

 

condition damage is not a side source of damage as you said and this is why you total ignored in your video. 

 

Also condition damage has a factor that makes it more powerful and this is the Expertise because makes the D.O.T.s hit longer time while power's factor is the concentration because makes the boons (like might & fury) last longer and this is why power builds roamers and the zergs invest on concentration. Generally speaking these are the 2 rules for the meta builds.

 

1. Power Build = Concentration.
2. Condition Build = Expertise.

 

if you want to understand why Traiblazer is better armor than celestial in specific CONDITION GODS builds watch the video  (that is not my video and not my words that said that with Traiblazer he had better DPS than celestial) on this blog post where i say in the title... During 2022 WvW Roamers are still Blaming the Armor Stats instead of... Skills and Traits! and it seems this blame on celestial will continue during 2023... 

 

for the last i will say what i have said many times. Celestial is a time consuming investement in this game and it should reward the players that invest on it and the reward is not the surpermacy of the gear against other gears but the fact that the player who has celestial can do zerging with the guild and roaming with it without someone say him/her that it is a bad choise. not the best choise for the roles that should play but not bad too!

 

p.s. if i haven't convinced you with what i already said go roaming with celestial and with a legacy build (not a expansion build)  and tell us  after what happened if celestial is OP as you say 😛

 

i am sure you will not kill anyone with a legacy build on Celestial as roamer because the OP is not coming from celestial but from the skills and traits!

 

 

It really amazes what people is capable to say to defend playing in easy mode.

[Reborn.2934]

On 1/15/2023 at 2:42 AM, Telgum.6071 said:

It really amazes what people is capable to say to defend playing in easy mode.

 

It really amazes what people is capable to say to defend trolling in easy mode.

[Strider.7849]

On 1/10/2023 at 3:21 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Nah, something like warrior rifle would really shine with that kind of stat set. Reaper would too.

What are your thoughts in regards to that stat distribution for rifle warrior? If you're okay with sharing.

[Gorani.7205]

I look at Cele from a kind of "what came first, chicken or egg perspective"
When Cele became avaibale, boons required field + combo placements. Commanders wanted me to play staff Ele in a large squad, because you needed static field + blasts for speed boosts (out of fights) or water fields via geyser for healing (in fights) and lava font & blasts to get 20+ might (right before fights) . Boons were created during a fight most of the time by skill, combos and a few traits.
Expansions started to hand out boons pretty much on demand without combos and out of combat (Herald comes to mind, having permanent might, fury & swiftness via Facets). Eles started to get Tempest with multiple boons via overloads (and gave them to others as well) and Weavers kind of got many "selfish boons". This escalation of power added on top of Cele stats, who were mediocre for many professions and then made them viable. The trend to add even more boons and "featuring the new elite professions" (in PoF & EoD) to be strong brought us to the current status quo, where Cele has elevated way too many builds and professions from doing "OK" (compared to power / condi / support stat set ups) to doing "pretty good" for a casual player and "OP" for skilled players (who can still dial up damage / boons / evasion etc., because they time skills and combo).
I have no solution for the problem, but I'd rather see a cut on permanent boon availability via skills & traits then a severe nerf on celestial stats to be a start to cull the weeds.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Strider.7849 said:

What are your thoughts in regards to that stat distribution for rifle warrior? If you're okay with sharing.

Warrior rifle is already poor damage wise, with the exception of F1 and volley. What it does have is a medium length cripple, large amounts of medium length vuln stacks, and an immobilize. I've played it on a Viper+bringer build to test out the condition duration increase on it, and the high criple, vuln, and immob uptime is enough to lock someone down for your team to spike down. The only downside is that you're totting around a wasted stat in condition damage and are lacking in critical damage.

Having a Power|Expertise/Precision|Ferocity or Power|Precision/Expertise|Ferocity stat set would enable warrior rifle to have that condition uptime on those valuable non damaging conditions while still have some damage potential on its own. You wouldn't have Memeflame levels of damage, but you would be able to put 24 vuln on a target, cripple them, and immob them long enough for a Killshot+Volley follow up. Such stat combos would actually play into what strengths Rilfe does have.

[Thomas.2564]

Say what u want, but the fact is is celestial gear is totally ridicolous, and should never EVER have been changed. And even anet knows how bull it is, how do we know this? Cause they removed it from pvp ages ago. But yet again, cause its wvw, it doesnt matter how bullshitty it is. 

[RaveOnYou.2819]

cele is the reason light classes survive and exist in wvw. we dont argue why heavy and medium armor classes have too much armor, health, boon generation, mobility still have too much dps comparing to light classes. gw2 is largley in favour of heavy armor classes. we have to discuss also this aspect.

 

ie. look at the wvw roaming list in metabattle.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW_Roaming

if you delete celestial builds you will see no light armor class.

Edited January 22, 2023 by RaveOnYou.2819
link added

[Xenesis.6389]

39 minutes ago, RaveOnYou.2819 said:

cele is the reason light classes survive and exist in wvw. we dont argue why heavy and medium armor classes have too much armor, health, boon generation, mobility still have too much dps comparing to light classes. gw2 is largley in favour of heavy armor classes. we have to discuss also this aspect.

 

ie. look at the wvw roaming list in metabattle.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW_Roaming

if you delete celestial builds you will see no light armor class.

It's funny the only things they took from the trinity concept(tank/dps/heal) is the light/med/heavy armor types and health levels, but everything else you're suppose to balance with that, like defense/support/movement/offence/availability/limitation of skills to classes, they threw out the window. 🥴

[Silinsar.6298]

11 hours ago, RaveOnYou.2819 said:

cele is the reason light classes survive and exist in wvw. we dont argue why heavy and medium armor classes have too much armor, health, boon generation, mobility still have too much dps comparing to light classes. gw2 is largley in favour of heavy armor classes. we have to discuss also this aspect.

 

ie. look at the wvw roaming list in metabattle.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW_Roaming

if you delete celestial builds you will see no light armor class.

There are plenty of non-cele light armor builds. Not only light armor classes would be affected by a cele nerf.

And I don't think people want to delete all cele builds, just shave some that have too much damage for the sustain and/or utility they have (aka use the total amount of stats too well).

[Cyninja.2954]

Simple cele fix:

 

Remove concentration again (in both pve and wvw). Adding concentration and expertise was far over the top in an attempt to give new and less competent PvE players a proper "jack of all" stat type. 

 

It's concentration which completely pushes cele performance over the top due to massive boon stacking. Which in turn pushes its usefulness beyond where it should be im WvW.

 

What about expertise on cele?

Longer duration conditions can still be countere with proper cleanse in wvw, in pve is allows for damage parity between power and condi when running cele. 

It's concentration which messes with the balance far more (not only on cele, but on other stat sets there is at least more specialization happening, which allows counterplay).

Edited January 23, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Telgum.6071]

13 hours ago, RaveOnYou.2819 said:

cele is the reason light classes survive and exist in wvw. we dont argue why heavy and medium armor classes have too much armor, health, boon generation, mobility still have too much dps comparing to light classes. gw2 is largley in favour of heavy armor classes. we have to discuss also this aspect.

 

ie. look at the wvw roaming list in metabattle.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW_Roaming

if you delete celestial builds you will see no light armor class.

?????

Trailblazer Necro? Reaper? Double shadowstep with wurm and spectral walk? Double HP bar? Any doubts that Harbinger would still be OP with Trailblazer if Celestial wasn't a thing?

Mesmer being able to range oneshot in area from stealth? Having a shitshow of stealth + blinks to either escape or chase? Virtuoso spamming aegis+blocks+invulnerability+blind? Mirage being so kitten strong that they need to have one less dodge?

Elementalist oneshotting with scepter even before the rework? Weaver being the top #1 survivalist class in the game while stacking all defensive and offensive boons of the game before the celestial rework?

The fact that the celestial stat was removed from the structured pvp mode?

C'mon man

Edited January 23, 2023 by Telgum.6071

[Amarils.8916]

 

On 1/10/2023 at 1:52 PM, RaveOnYou.2819 said:

light armor classes rely on celestial bcs there is no utility, burst damage or whatever they make equal with heavy armor classes. so its doesnt bother me anymore when eles, mesmers or necromancers use celestial. 

did you just say that ele....the class with 25 spells in their arsenal ....2 elements dedicated to protection and heals, have no utility ? did you just say a mesmer dont have burst damage ?

Edited November 14, 2023 by Amarils.8916

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

56 minutes ago, Amarils.8916 said:

 

did you just say that ele....the class with 25 spells in their arsenal ....2 elements dedicated to protection and heals, have no utility ? did you just say a mesmer dont have burst damage ?

Ele is weak though, try running full berserk and tell us how well that went and how many times you died to Mosquitos sneezes after you left spawn area. Weapon skills are much weaker than other classes and utility skills are average at best. 

[XenesisII.1540]

34 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Ele is weak though, try running full berserk and tell us how well that went and how many times you died to Mosquitos sneezes after you left spawn area. Weapon skills are much weaker than other classes and utility skills are average at best. 

Yet there's tempest that can tank multiple players at once.

Maybe some of you ele's just need to work on your combos and rotations.

Also... don't use berserk to roam in wvw.

🤒

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

10 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Yet there's tempest that can tank multiple players at once.

Maybe some of you ele's just need to work on your combos and rotations.

Also... don't use berserk to roam in wvw.

🤒

If you people want to get rid of Celestial from WvW, go for it, you'll regret it. The reality is, Marauder/Berserker are garbage for Eles since it's skills are garbage(low damage, low sustain). Celestial on Ele just makes it usable against other bs speces that have high defenses and survivability on pure Marauder/Berserker gear, which you people fail to see.
Seen Mirage/Virtuoso/Teef/Vindicator/Soulbeasts/Willyblender/Necros/others tank multiple people at once and some of them were using Marauder gear.
Fix risk vs reward balance then you can remove Celestial. Otherwise lmao.