Condition damage in smal scale

[Eudaimonia.8695]

28 minutes ago, Sansar.1302 said:

About 2 years ago they nerfed power damage alot , way more than the condi damage nerf 😞

 

Okay, your point? Power builds have been meta for years.

[Dawdler.8521]

6 hours ago, Sansar.1302 said:

About 2 years ago they nerfed power damage alot , way more than the condi damage nerf 😞

Condi damage dps was nerfed by 50% across the board (and in some cases 70%+ like say engineer due to double whammys in the traitlines).

How much was power damage dps nerfed across the board?

Just wondering.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Every other thread is either damage is too high or defense is too high. Here's a tip, if they're both too high, then they're balanced and the devs got exactly what they were after. Examples in history of when they weren't balanced was the 1shot meta when defense was too low, and the bunker meta when damage was too low.

 

Part of the problem is Celestial and it should be reworked in WvW (not PvE), but alot of it is that you don't want damage and defense be balanced and for fights to be a 50./50 win/lose, you want people to just die.

 

I also don't know why players bring Trailblazer up so much as Expertise is a DPS loss in WvW due to cleanses. Most of the hardcore condition builds run Dire, which has far higher damage on average as it packs the most damage over time into the least amount of time. Even Cele is taken for Concentration, not Expertise.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Part of the problem is Celestial and it should be reworked in WvW (not PvE), but alot of it is that you don't want damage and defense be balanced and for fights to be a 50./50 win/lose, you want people to just die.

 

I also don't know why players bring Trailblazer up so much as Expertise is a DPS loss in WvW due to cleanses. Most of the hardcore condition builds run Dire, which has far higher damage on average as it packs the most damage over time into the least amount of time. Even Cele is taken for Concentration, not Expertise.

😵

Most hardcorecondition builds are straight up garbage. Real Chads run Cele.

Expertise = damageloss is debatable, and highy dependent on the build you play.  Ele sceptre fire AA is 1 and 2 second durations every % Extraduration is basicly a flat % damage increase, because even with 100% extra duration you are looking at 2 and 4 second durations. Extra duration also works for cripple/slow/chilled/vuln... its basicly adds alot of strength to the cover conditions aswell. Running with 0 Concentration is hardcore useless.

How will you know why people pick celestial!?  I pick it because its overpowered and just overshadows all the other statcombinations by a mile.

[MysteryDude.1572]

11 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

every group that is below 8ish people is at maximum strength like this:

1 or 2 minstrelTempests and then fill up with Cele.

But thats not because conditions are overpowered. Its because Cele has WAY WAY WAY to many stats. Now you add might ontop and suddenly you have a raidboss build.

Well tbf some run 1-2 trailblazer dps/minstrel support cause it makes sense to be tanky when heavily outnumbered.

  

Also 20-25 man guilds used to have the cele spelbreakers and chronos , cause immob duration . Now druid can pump immob so I guess they can afford more zergy builds.

[Telgum.6071]

Great experience roaming this morning a condi warrior, a condi necro, a condi guardian and a condi druid 😄 makes you really enjoy playing WvW.

I swear the only ones that do not run away when alone are playing condition builds 90% of the time. I wonder why, if conditions are perfectly balanced?

To be fair I will agree that the condition/celestial problem would be better addresed by looking into the synergy with certain classes/builds, but that is not going to happen. If Anet ever decides to nerf them it will be done through stack duration or stats or damage reduction.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Telgum.6071

[Dawdler.8521]

43 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

To be fair I will agree that the condition/celestial problem would be better addresed by looking into the synergy with certain classes/builds, but that is not going to happen. If Anet ever decides to nerf them it will be done through stack duration or stats or damage reduction.

That would reduce their PvE dps. Cant have that. It must only go up.

But if you really are thinking about such nerfs... they havent even nerfed the thief after 10 years of it being able to indefinetly combo its own fields.

[TheGrimm.5624]

11 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Condi damage dps was nerfed by 50% across the board (and in some cases 70%+ like say engineer due to double whammys in the traitlines).

How much was power damage dps nerfed across the board?

Just wondering.

Would have to go back and look but when at the time memory is saying it was something like 30% across the board. Which is why in guild we were calling it the nerf patch. Didn't see a good way to calc the condi cuts but they were there across the board as well even while the power side of the forum was saying there weren't any. Everyone joined the noodle club that day.

[TheGrimm.5624]

10 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Every other thread is either damage is too high or defense is too high. Here's a tip, if they're both too high, then they're balanced and the devs got exactly what they were after. Examples in history of when they weren't balanced was the 1shot meta when defense was too low, and the bunker meta when damage was too low.

 

Part of the problem is Celestial and it should be reworked in WvW (not PvE), but alot of it is that you don't want damage and defense be balanced and for fights to be a 50./50 win/lose, you want people to just die.

 

I also don't know why players bring Trailblazer up so much as Expertise is a DPS loss in WvW due to cleanses. Most of the hardcore condition builds run Dire, which has far higher damage on average as it packs the most damage over time into the least amount of time. Even Cele is taken for Concentration, not Expertise.

Not sure I would agree here. Run 32 toons though I play some a lot less than others. In the top 10 that I play more often they are a mix of power, condi and cele, close to a 33% mix. I don't have any full tanks. My Celes are more hybird sustain builds but that doesn't mean they dominate, they are just better at getting hit by more and have more of a chance to get back out of the fight. To me its seems ANet has made hybrid a grouping and each class is getting one over the various expansions. Power builds can still burst them and full condi builds can melt them over time. Again if there are some skills outperforming others that might be the better place to address them.

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

I swear the only ones that do not run away when alone are playing condition builds 90% of the time. I wonder why, if conditions are perfectly balanced?

To be fair, when a power builds uses up their rotation they can get a quick feel on how the fight will go depending on where their opponent's health is at. On the condi builds you have to bait out the cleanses and then apply the damage and then see if you counted the cleansing right or re-apply and then wait for ticks and that's in a 1v1, in more group settings its longer. To me that's why you might see condi's hanging around longer since they don't know if time will do it. But I agree I will quite often see a power build disengage and try and get out there earlier than I do hybrids or condis. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

6 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

That would reduce their PvE dps. Cant have that. It must only go up.

But if you really are thinking about such nerfs... they havent even nerfed the thief after 10 years of it being able to indefinetly combo its own fields.

 

Combos are different. As I said in another thread I do still have and like the bruiser staff DD. But yes it is quite nerfed from where it once was. You used to be able to face tank a zerg with it. It was also hit by the nerf patch and then additional changes afterwards. Wasn't as bad as the Vinid was for that short bit but it is no longer the ping pong ball of death it once was.

[Thomas.2564]

On 1/19/2023 at 5:46 AM, Sansar.1302 said:

Condition damage is way to powerful in smal scale, it needs be be atleast half of what it is now.

To powerful? How? Im sorry if ur dying to condis in small scale fights it's cause ur not doing anything to counter it. There is so much cleansing around atm that playing condi is basically meaningless. 

Countering condi groups is the easiest thing in this game tbh. 

Just think about all the skills that share cleansing for team mates, and u dont even need to run specific stat types to utilise these traits or skills. U also have cleansing sigil which is a must in wvw, so if ur not running a minimum of 1 of this sigil, then dont complain about condis. One good cleansing tempest will make a world of difference for ur party too. Even FB after the changes has some pretty good cleansing now. Also a marauder reaper with blood magic and unholy martyr dos a ton of cleansing. 

So if u and ur friends are dying to condis, it's cause ur not doing enough to counter them, and that's just a fact. 

If ur all playing roaming bullds with only ur own survivability in mind, then yes condi groups will most likely run u over. But put in a little effort to counter them, and they basically cant touch u. 

We stopped using condi bullds all together cause they are SO easy to counter, not only cleansing wise, but u even have resolution now. 

 

 

[Jski.6180]

The issues is always going to be classes who can apply all of the condis in one skill set. No amount of balancing will ever fix that.

[solemn.9670]

In this thread/tldr version:

Veterans/people who actually have experience playing WvW: "yeah condi is op, does anyone actually think otherwise? Isn't that well known by now?"

Forum mains: "well, you see, power builds can be overpowered too, which means that condi builds being inherently op due to requiring a separate cleanse mechanic and the fact that you can just overload someone with so many condis they can't possibly cleanse, is fine... I will use a smug attitude and the fact that power builds are subject to the same balance issues as condi to prove my point..."

[Xenesis.6389]

Just bring a boon blob to insta clear your conditions, it's how wvw is meant to be played anyways. 🤭

[solemn.9670]

17 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Just bring a boon blob to insta clear your conditions, it's how wvw is meant to be played anyways. 🤭

I realize this is satire but it's as if people saying condi is fine really expect you to do this xd

Or play antitoxin rune 100% of the time with cleansing+generosity sigils and all cleanse synergies possible with a weaponset that has cleanses. Which just means you'll have a ridiculous build that can fight condi and dies in silly ways fighting anything meta.

(Inb4 "bro~~~ I don't play full cleanse builds and I can kill condi players just fine, get good" --- yes I kill bad condi players all the time as well, until I meet a good condi player and then I have no chance because it's condi lol)

Alternative to running full cleanse build 100% of the time: get for sure smacked by condi mirage/harbinger and most probably smacked by fire catalyst/weaver (as an ele main I find this a good time to say that I would love to see a fire nerf and air buff, condi nerf/slight power buff for ele pls)

Inb4 rock paper scissors as if anyone thinks that's a fun way to interact with other roamers. Uh oh he's a rock and I'm a scissor guess I'll just die. Fun lmao

 

[Dawdler.8521]

37 minutes ago, solemn.9670 said:

I realize this is satire but it's as if people saying condi is fine really expect you to do this xd

Or play antitoxin rune 100% of the time with cleansing+generosity sigils and all cleanse synergies possible with a weaponset that has cleanses. Which just means you'll have a ridiculous build that can fight condi and dies in silly ways fighting anything meta.

(Inb4 "bro~~~ I don't play full cleanse builds and I can kill condi players just fine, get good" --- yes I kill bad condi players all the time as well, until I meet a good condi player and then I have no chance because it's condi lol)

Alternative to running full cleanse build 100% of the time: get for sure smacked by condi mirage/harbinger and most probably smacked by fire catalyst/weaver (as an ele main I find this a good time to say that I would love to see a fire nerf and air buff, condi nerf/slight power buff for ele pls)

Inb4 rock paper scissors as if anyone thinks that's a fun way to interact with other roamers. Uh oh he's a rock and I'm a scissor guess I'll just die. Fun lmao

 

Condi and power is interchangeable in exactly everything you just said, lol.

[Silinsar.6298]

42 minutes ago, solemn.9670 said:

I realize this is satire but it's as if people saying condi is fine really expect you to do this xd

Or play antitoxin rune 100% of the time with cleansing+generosity sigils and all cleanse synergies possible with a weaponset that has cleanses. Which just means you'll have a ridiculous build that can fight condi and dies in silly ways fighting anything meta.

(Inb4 "bro~~~ I don't play full cleanse builds and I can kill condi players just fine, get good" --- yes I kill bad condi players all the time as well, until I meet a good condi player and then I have no chance because it's condi lol)

Alternative to running full cleanse build 100% of the time: get for sure smacked by condi mirage/harbinger and most probably smacked by fire catalyst/weaver (as an ele main I find this a good time to say that I would love to see a fire nerf and air buff, condi nerf/slight power buff for ele pls)

Inb4 rock paper scissors as if anyone thinks that's a fun way to interact with other roamers. Uh oh he's a rock and I'm a scissor guess I'll just die. Fun lmao

 

Antitoxin might be overkill but cleansing sigil is strong in general, you should consider using it. You don't have to run a full cleanse build, but figure out a compromise between options that that help you vs power and ones that help you vs. conditions.

GW2 isn't completely RPS, but to win against a build that has an advantage in that specific 1v1 match-up you'll need to play better than your opponent.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Silinsar.6298

[solemn.9670]

1 hour ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

Antitoxin might be overkill but cleansing sigil is strong in general, you should consider using it. You don't have to run a full cleanse build, but figure out a compromise between options that that help you vs power and ones that help you vs. conditions.

GW2 isn't completely RPS, but to win against a build that has an advantage in that specific 1v1 match-up you'll need to play better than your opponent.

Thank you but not my first rodeo, just making the point that some builds actually require you to run a full cleanse build. Am almost always running cleanse sigil tho

[solemn.9670]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Condi and power is interchangeable in exactly everything you just said, lol.

Of course it is because you don't see the point lol. You don't want to see it so no one will ever be able to make you. I've seen you complaining about power builds so many times I've just given up on trying to change your mind. You're like the only one here who thinks this xd

Not comparing you to a cultist here, but it's like debating with someone who is in a cult, nothing you say will change the fact that they want to believe what they want to believe and no one will ever change their mind because they've made up their mind that they're going to believe in it regardless of anything that goes against it.

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

In the wvw golden age, condi damage was just about useless, both against people, and siege.  A return to that state, would probably improve the game mode over all.

[apharma.3741]

 

On 1/19/2023 at 9:55 PM, Sahne.6950 said:

every group that is below 8ish people is at maximum strength like this:

1 or 2 minstrelTempests and then fill up with Cele.

But thats not because conditions are overpowered. Its because Cele has WAY WAY WAY to many stats. Now you add might ontop and suddenly you have a raidboss build.

Honestly every gank group or roaming group I've come across is power or celestial, I really don't see many pure condition builds. As Dawdler says it's mostly down to poor balancing decisions that have made classes able to utilise a wide range of stats for no reason.

Most of it is down to specific builds too, your daredevil build is really strong but remove the 25 might and it quickly starts to lose strength. If stealing health on stealth attacks didn't trigger multiple times it would be in the "doesn't die but doesn't really help" category of roamer.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, solemn.9670 said:

Of course it is because you don't see the point lol. You don't want to see it so no one will ever be able to make you. I've seen you complaining about power builds so many times I've just given up on trying to change your mind. You're like the only one here who thinks this xd

Not comparing you to a cultist here, but it's like debating with someone who is in a cult, nothing you say will change the fact that they want to believe what they want to believe and no one will ever change their mind because they've made up their mind that they're going to believe in it regardless of anything that goes against it.

Still aint sure what the point being made is.

Every time someone says condi is OP, we can show that the meta is in fact 90% power and celestial. It is demonstrable fact that builds lean away from condi at anything above solo player roamers because of exponential gains of focusing damage on a target.

The other side of the argument is that condi is OP because it can compete with power in 1v1.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[apharma.3741]

1 hour ago, solemn.9670 said:

Of course it is because you don't see the point lol. You don't want to see it so no one will ever be able to make you. I've seen you complaining about power builds so many times I've just given up on trying to change your mind. You're like the only one here who thinks this xd

Not comparing you to a cultist here, but it's like debating with someone who is in a cult, nothing you say will change the fact that they want to believe what they want to believe and no one will ever change their mind because they've made up their mind that they're going to believe in it regardless of anything that goes against it.

Just play ranger, engineer or catalyst and get it all?

[Hotride.2187]

Woah, another condi+cele discussion. Almost like the combination is a problem.