Yearly/Semi-Yearly Expansions Sounds a lot like Icebrood Saga we pay for.

[Vayne.8563]

12 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

     They already make enough money from the gem store. This is more a move of greed than anything else.

 How do you know?  I'm curious about that.  How much they make is different from how much profit they make. Do you know how much profit they make? Do you know how much rent they're paying, what the salaries are, what insurance costs are? Equiptment costs? Electrical costs. Server costs.  Seems to me, people assume that people make enough money as if inflation affects them but doesn't affect companies at all... which is not the case.

 

At the end of the day, it would be hard to define "enough money." Enough money for what? To fund this game indefinitely? To fund this game and some other game?

People say stuff like this and it always blows my mind. I'd like to see a definition of what you think is enough money and how you came to that conclusion.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

18 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

 How do you know?  I'm curious about that.  How much they make is different from how much profit they make. Do you know how much profit they make? Do you know how much rent they're paying, what the salaries are, what insurance costs are? Equiptment costs? Electrical costs. Server costs.  Seems to me, people assume that people make enough money as if inflation affects them but doesn't affect companies at all... which is not the case.

 

At the end of the day, it would be hard to define "enough money." Enough money for what? To fund this game indefinitely? To fund this game and some other game?

People say stuff like this and it always blows my mind. I'd like to see a definition of what you think is enough money and how you came to that conclusion.

     Look at the quarterly report which was posted about a week ago or so. They make more then enough for server costs and such. The problem is people have gotten accustomed to greed, so they don't bat an eye when a company does something based purely on greed. It was fine the way it was with LW. If you were loyal and logged in on time, you got it for free. Now, it is more nickel and diming for same quality LW content. IBS is enough of an example to show what their idea of it is. The only thing is now we have to pay for it.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Doctor Hide.6345

[Cyninja.2954]

57 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

     Look at the quarterly report which was posted about a week ago or so. They make more then enough for server costs and such. The problem is people have gotten accustomed to greed, so they don't bat an eye when a company does something based purely on greed. It was fine the way it was with LW. If you were loyal and logged in on time, you got it for free. Now, it is more nickel and diming for same quality LW content. IBS is enough of an example to show what their idea of it is. The only thing is now we have to pay for it.

 

True, what you are leaving out is the recent inflation which has nearly all sectors either increase prices by 10-20% (in most western countries, lets not even talk about other places, say Turkey and the 50-70% there), or do massive layoffs. Most often both.

I didn't see players complain about revenue of the company while it was in decline post PoF, well actually there was the cosntant doomer crowd which used the quarterly reports to predict the games end.

 

Me personally, if I had to choose between a studio having a high revenue stream and a low revenue stream, if my interest is in the continuation of the prodict they provide, I'd take high revenue any day. 

 

I'd then decide if the product is worth it to me on a day to day basis, instead of screaming beforehand about a company trying to make money. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Doctor Hide.6345]

2 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

True, what you are leaving out is the recent inflation which has nearly all sectors either increase prices by 10-20%, or do massive layoffs. Most often both.

 

I didn't see players complain about revenue of the company while it was in decline post PoF, well actually there was the cosntant doomer crowd which used the quarterly reports to predict the games end.

 

Me personally, if I had to choose between a studio having a high revenue stream and a low revenue stream, if my interest is in the continuation of the prodict they provide, I'd take high revenue any day. 

 

I'd then decide if the product is worth it to me on a day to day basis, instead of screaming beforehand about a company trying to make money. 

     That is true. There is the recent crisis at hand which could be a factor in this. And of course there is always the constant doomer crowd which I am not part of by the way. I am just weary of companies going  full greed mode betraying loyal customers all for the sake of profit. I am just tired of it.

     My issue really is not the cost because it is cheap. I spend money all the time on the game, so $10-$25 for a year(hopefully. not every 6 months) won't break the bank for me. It is more I feel betrayed because they are now treating every player like they are new to the game. Before, you were rewarded with loyalty by logging in on time and getting it for free. Now, it doesn't matter because you are just a new player in their eyes. That is what is pissing me off the most.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

     Look at the quarterly report which was posted about a week ago or so. They make more then enough for server costs and such. The problem is people have gotten accustomed to greed, so they don't bat an eye when a company does something based purely on greed. It was fine the way it was with LW. If you were loyal and logged in on time, you got it for free. Now, it is more nickel and diming for same quality LW content. IBS is enough of an example to show what their idea of it is. The only thing is now we have to pay for it.

How much is their rent. How much are the salaries. We know what they made. We don't know their operational expensive. We don't know the profit. You are jumping to a conclusion based on a single piece of data.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

2 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

How much is their rent. How much are the salaries. We know what they made. We don't know their operational expensive. We don't know the profit. You are jumping to a conclusion based on a single piece of data.

Maybe I am,  but I already answered a lot of that below on why I feel the way I do.  

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

     That is true. There is the recent crisis at hand which could be a factor in this. And of course there is always the constant doomer crowd which I am not part of by the way. I am just weary of companies going  full greed mode betraying loyal customers all for the sake of profit. I am just tired of it.

     My issue really is not the cost because it is cheap. I spend money all the time on the game, so $10-$25 for a year(hopefully. not every 6 months) won't break the bank for me. It is more I feel betrayed because they are now treating every player like they are new to the game. Before, you were rewarded with loyalty by logging in on time and getting it for free. Now, it doesn't matter because you are just a new player in their eyes. That is what is pissing me off the most.

True, that is one way of looking at things. I see it differently though (which doesn't mean your view is wrong, we are talking subjecte perceptions here).

In my eyes they are trying, for the first time in years, to find a business model which allows them to continue development of the game (still less than I would personally like, but that is beside the point) without going to heavy in a direction I disagree with (gem store and pay to win for example) or eventually dropping the game completely.

The Living World (or focusing only on open world) model did not work. It hasn't worked in years. The studio likely never adapted because their focus was on other projects in the past (in my opinion).

What did work was creating buzz and delivering an expansion, focusing on more than just open world and fixing issues which held back new players and bothered veteran players. My guess is the current approach is a middle ground between what they think they can produce (in scope and time-frame) and what they think they have to produce (expansion to create buzz. I would have preferred regular episodes in-between and major expansions myself, but I guess that's just not in the current developer budget).

What I have never associated with Anet though was player gouging or nickel and diming. Even when templates came out, regular new over-shiny gem store skins or the recent 1,600 gem jade bot skins, compared to industry alternatives, this game has been a tremendous value for money. The pricing of past expansions, DLC content (living world), even skins, has been below industry standards ALWAYS. I don't believe that is about to change.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Vayne.8563]

41 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

Maybe I am,  but I already answered a lot of that below on why I feel the way I do.  

Yep, I get how you feel. Feelings are not facts. Feelings often work against facts. Without evidence, making declarative statements is pointless.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

10 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

True, that is one way of looking at things. I see it differently though (which doesn't mean your view is wrong, we are talking subjecte perceptions here).

In my eyes they are trying, for the first time in years, to find a business model which allows them to continue development of the game (still less than I would personally like, but that is beside the point) without going to heavy in a direction I disagree with (gem store and pay to win for example) or eventually dropping the game completely.

The Living World (or focusing only on open world) model did not work. It hasn't worked in years. The studio likely never adapted because their focus was on other projects in the past (in my opinion).

What did work was creating buzz and delivering an expansion, focusing on more than just open world and fixing issues which held back new players and bothered veteran players. My guess is the current approach is a middle ground between what they think they can produce (in scope and time-frame) and what they think they have to produce (expansion to create buzz. I would have preferred regular episodes in-between and major expansions myself, but I guess that's just not in the current developer budget).

What I have never associated with Anet though was player gouging or nickel and diming. Even when templates came out, regular new over-shiny gem store skins or the recent 1,600 gem jade bot skins, compared to industry alternatives, this game has been a tremendous value for money. The pricing of past expansions, DLC content (living world), even skins, has been below industry standards ALWAYS. I don't believe that is about to change.

     I can see what you mean, and of course each one of our opinions is subjective which I can respect.  As you know, I kind of preferred the old way doing things over this because it does remind me too much of ESO which I don't like that style if I am to be frank even there. I will go over that part later in this response, but overall it just makes me feel not safe or trusting with them.

     I kind of like the OW focus because I am primarily an OW player, so the new direction on strikes and fractals does not interest me in the slightest. Even if it was not making as much money, they could have tried something different in my opinion without going the current route. I don't have any ideas on hand, but I think they could have attempted to save the LW at least while keeping it free without going straight mini expansions.

     That is part of my core reason I don't like it. I don't like hype or buzz because it blinds people to the real truths behind stuff. Look at games that got overhyped and just fall flat causing more harm than good to the community. I do get the time requirement argument, but I don't like the whole psychological manipulation tactics of the buzz and excitement just to grab people when the actual mini expansion could just be the old LW quality. I am not saying that all will be that way, but I don't have high faith that they will be top quality. Time will tell there. Which is why I don't care for ESO level of buying expansions. It is too much psychological manipulation which I already hate in general for stuff. I prefer more honest approaches which companies seems to dislike. I also would have preferred regular episodes in between and major expansions, but it is what it is. /shrug

     Well, I would consider the templates nickel and diming. The skin stuff not so much because fashion. The main reason I accepted the template one is because it is not needed to actually play the game. I have only bought gear templates once, but all my characters use the standard free 2 for gear and 3 for specs. I was fine with that because I saw it more as QOL . This is different for me because I see it as required. You want to be where everyone else is which means the new expansion and maps. Feeling left out feels bad, so you kind of have to pay for it just not to feel that way. It is psychological manipulation again through them having it not be free anymore and more nickel and diming which is why I say that from my perspective. It still has tremendous value for the money when it comes to costs and buying, and it may not change. But my fear is still there on the reasons why it is changing because I don't know what else they will change if this proves to be successful if the mini expansions are all low quality.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

10 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Yep, I get how you feel. Feelings are not facts. Feelings often work against facts. Without evidence, making declarative statements is pointless.

That is all you will get from me then. I am bored of this conversation anyways, so I will drop it with you. I will make all the pointless statements I want because I can. Goodbye.

[Kozumi.5816]

6 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

True, what you are leaving out is the recent inflation which has nearly all sectors either increase prices by 10-20% (in most western countries, lets not even talk about other places, say Turkey and the 50-70% there), or do massive layoffs. Most often both.

I didn't see players complain about revenue of the company while it was in decline post PoF, well actually there was the cosntant doomer crowd which used the quarterly reports to predict the games end.

 

Me personally, if I had to choose between a studio having a high revenue stream and a low revenue stream, if my interest is in the continuation of the prodict they provide, I'd take high revenue any day. 

 

I'd then decide if the product is worth it to me on a day to day basis, instead of screaming beforehand about a company trying to make money. 

Anet is isn't investing 100% of profits back into GW2. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Kozumi.5816

[Kozumi.5816]

On 2/14/2023 at 1:24 AM, Gladiotor.7561 said:

Atleast there wont be a content drought like now. I like a higher cadence. Releases might be more consistent too. 

This is a joke, right? There will be the same amount of content at the same pace we get now, but now you'll have to pay for it.

[Blazing Rathalos.1904]

7 hours ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

 

     My issue really is not the cost because it is cheap. I spend money all the time on the game, so $10-$25 for a year(hopefully. not every 6 months) won't break the bank for me. It is more I feel betrayed because they are now treating every player like they are new to the game. Before, you were rewarded with loyalty by logging in on time and getting it for free. Now, it doesn't matter because you are just a new player in their eyes. That is what is pissing me off the most.

Unfortunately however, this model was terrible for new players, which is not good for the game's health. Because, as loyal players who got all the episodes for free, we are mostly blind to the ballooning costs associated with the game.

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

Maybe I am,  but I already answered a lot of that below on why I feel the way I do.  

Not maybe ... you absolutely are, then accuse Anet of the standard 'greed corporation' line we've all heard before. How you feel is not relevant to what is reality. 

The bottomline here is: Do you like the service Anet is providing? If so, you pay. If not, you don't. Paying shouldn't make you 'feel' like a new player. It should make you feel like you have a reason to give your money for the content you are accessing ... because you enjoy it. 

And in case there is any confusion ... there was never a time when content was free. We paid for all the expansions and LS that came with them. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

This is a joke, right? There will be the same amount of content at the same pace we get now, but now you'll have to pay for it.

You always DID pay for it. The idea we didn't pay for content is false. 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

I'm expecting the smaller expansion model to be the LW model and still have $20 mount, $8.75 individual armor, and $7.50 glider skins in the gem store for sale instead of anything focusing on things earned in-game.

[Linken.6345]

1 minute ago, Andifulated.3482 said:

I'm expecting the smaller expansion model to be the LW model and still have $20 mount, $8.75 individual armor, and $7.50 glider skins in the gem store for sale instead of anything focusing on things earned in-game.

Ofcourse but you will get boots, helm and shoulder skins earned in game so its all ok right?

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

54 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Ofcourse but you will get boots, helm and shoulder skins earned in game so its all ok right?

I'm old enough to remember spending $20-$30 on an expansion meant you'd  get what the base game offered and maybe a little more.

If these new expansions give me more things to earn ingame, I won't mind the occasional gemstore skins.  But if I'm paying for what we used to get for free if we were online during the timeframe it was out, nah, I'm gone.

[voltaicbore.8012]

2 hours ago, Andifulated.3482 said:

But if I'm paying for what we used to get for free if we were online during the timeframe it was out, nah, I'm gone.

Unfortunately I think a lot of players feel the same way. I personally don't; as a new player I was amazed to find out LW was free during the login periods, and consider the new model to make more sense (just have everyone pay for that content, regardless of whether or not you're playing during the free launch period). I suspect I'm in the minority though.

The real issue for me is that Anet is again messing around with "expansion" language. I would have much preferred them to have committed to the model they have now, but just said something like "inflation kinda hurts, and we think it's fair that going forward all players pay for LW, instead of just some getting it for free and others having to pay for it. In the meantime we might scale back our ambitions for LW and redirect those efforts into making xpacs faster or better."

Instead they're trying to sell us on the idea that they are radically changing the way they produce content, are capable of making a better expansion this way, and are able to properly deliver that better expansion chopped up into smaller bits.

There's no reason why they can't make good on that promise, but I will remain convinced that they won't until they actually do it.

Edited February 16, 2023 by voltaicbore.8012

[EquinoxPower.4783]

I'm concerned as well, still excited but concerned.

I must say like other already said I don't mind paying for content if its good, look at LSW4 even tho it had ups and downs it was an amazing season(imo).

What I don't understand is how this change will make the development better... I'm going to ignore completely the monetary changes because what I'm more confused is, quoting what Grouch said, "Historically, with few exceptions, Living World seasons have required the focus of nearly the entire Guild Wars 2 development team to deliver them at the size, quality, and cadence that our players expect" how does moving from xpacs to mini xpacs with quarterly updates make the content better? If they struggled in the past during LSW3/LSW4 when almost and sometimes all the dev team was working on it.

I'm trying to comprehend honestly and have no ill intent towards the game or the devs.

Another thing is how vague the blogpost was, I think they could've went a bit more in detail what this new year will bring us but I guess time will tell.

Finishing up my thoughts, at first when I read the post I was really really hyped but after rereading  a couple of times I have put hype in check! One thing I'm excited, but correct me if I'm wrong, we will get a new xpac by the end of the year since we will get an update in 2 weeks and another in June/July which will be the two quarterly updates they mentioned!

[Gibson.4036]

20 hours ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

That is why I am overall bitter to the changes here. I have a dreadful feeling we are now going to be paying for the same level of IBS every year when that level of quality content used to be free. That is why people more or less gave IBS a pass because it was free if you logged in on time. Now they want us to pay for it instead.

Except IBS wasn't free if you logged in. You had to pay for PoF to have access to it.

We just got a crazy long amount of content included with PoF, compared to HoT and EoD.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Doctor Hide.6345]

8 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Except IBS wasn't free if you logged in. You had to pay for PoF to have access to it.

We just got a crazy long amount of content included with PoF, compared to HoT and EoD.

     That may be true, but it doesn't negate the fact IBS was awful which doesn't leave much hope that the new mini expacs will be any better. I don't have much faith that they will be better, but only time will tell there.

[Gibson.4036]

Just now, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

     That may be true, but it doesn't negate the fact IBS was awful which doesn't leave much hope that the new mini expacs will be any better. I don't have much faith that they will be better, but only time will tell there.

Absolutely. That's why I think the wise thing is to wait until all the following updates are added, then decide whether the expansion is worth buying.

[Sobx.1758]

38 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

     That may be true, but it doesn't negate the fact IBS was awful which doesn't leave much hope that the new mini expacs will be any better. I don't have much faith that they will be better, but only time will tell there.

I don't see how ibs was awful. What left the bad impression were DRMs and ending which felt rushed. But that's not even close to being the whole ibs content.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Sobx.1758
missed a word

[Doctor Hide.6345]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I don't see how ibs was awful. What left the impression were DRMs and ending which felt rushed. But that's not even close to being the whole ibs content.

     Sometimes how things end affect how you feel about it even if some of the stuff in it was good. So for you it was ok, but for others like me how they rushed the end and the DRMs were enough for us to not like it a lot and say it is awful.