The iterative process ruins this game potential

[Gibson.4036]

25 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 

'lurch' is a subjective evaluation of change, the discussion didn't miss it because its your personal opinion and  adaptability and vision are not mutually exclusive.

Of course it's subjective. It's my opinion. Like pretty much everything everyone writes in these forums.

I wasn't saying the discussion missed my personal viewpoint that it has lurched.

I'm saying, from what I saw of it, the discussion missed the distinction between adapting to meet your goals, and changing your goals. When people said they felt like the goals were shifting, they were responded to as if they didn't understand the concept of adapting to changing circumstances. So there was a lot of talking past each other.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Bladestrom.6425]

4 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Of course it's subjective. It's my opinion. Like pretty much everything everyone writes in these forums.

I wasn't saying the discussion missed my personal viewpoint that it has lurched.

I'm saying, from what I saw of it, the discussion missed the distinction between adapting to meet your goals, and changing your goals. When people said they felt like the goals were shifting, they were responded to as if they didn't understand the concept of adapting to changing circumstances. So there was a lot of talking past each other.

Thats true.  People often view change as a negative by looking at the change in isolation and correlating it with a negative.  Change in software is always planned and weighed up for cost v benefit to the customer.  What fights against this is greedy companies who put profit over quality and i don't think Anet is one of those companies. 

 

As with everything you need to assess the change against intent - is the dev house trying to do a good thing or a bad thing.

[The Boz.2038]

16 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

is the dev house trying to do a good thing or a bad thing

I think you'll find that very few dev houses get up in the morning, make themselves a cup of coffee, hold a morning scrum, and proclaim "let's go do a bad thing today".

[Artyport.2084]

Like how do we not have a blog post or a release page already. This seems bare minimum.

ffxiv releases a release page like months before its content and updates it as they progress. 
 

its not that this game isn’t doing well it’s just annoying how they waste the potential that they have by being continually sloppy with how they release content.  
 

its honestly bizarre. Like no one at the top was like let’s take a few photos of the new content and make a release page? 
 

there is honestly just not an excuse for this that I can possibly think of. 
 

do they not have interns? 

[Bladestrom.6425]

5 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I think you'll find that very few dev houses get up in the morning, make themselves a cup of coffee, hold a morning scrum, and proclaim "let's go do a bad thing today".

no but some are given no choice by management and have to heavily compromise for the sake of profit which was the point..

[TheQuickFox.3826]

You're absolutely right, but these things happen in large business. There have been quite some changes in leadership, ArenaNet has tried innovative new directions like the true Living World of Season 1 and found out that it has quite some drawbacks. Also, ArenaNet has to get revenue from sales alone while keeping existing players engaged to their products. There are no subscription fees so ArenaNet might have experimented a bit in what is the best way to achieve a reliable revenue stream.

[Bladestrom.6425]

18 minutes ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

You're absolutely right, but these things happen in large business. There have been quite some changes in leadership, ArenaNet has tried innovative new directions like the true Living World of Season 1 and found out that it has quite some drawbacks. Also, ArenaNet has to get revenue from sales alone while keeping existing players engaged to their products. There are no subscription fees so ArenaNet might have experimented a bit in what is the best way to achieve a reliable revenue stream.

I agree

[DarcShriek.5829]

I think the OP and I have different opinion on what the iterative process is.  I personally don't know how you could design any game without it.  I don't understand claim that hurt GW2.

[Bladestrom.6425]

The OP hasn't really posted since it was pointed out to him that he himself was regularly asking for change so this thread seemed to be I don't want change unless i ask for it lol

[Dasein.5987]

imagine paying for "mini expansions"

[Linken.6345]

22 minutes ago, vicky.9751 said:

Honestly 'm kinda surprised this 2013 game still exists. I think it's doing fine for how tiny the company is. Hell, even wow copied the skyscale.

I do really wish we got more pve content, or more ways to play pve. That's been my issue with the game over the years. i've done enough t4 fractals to be exhausted of them. at this point i'd only run them for money, and we haven't gotten a new one since 2020.

so much of the dev time seems to go into crazy world bosses like drakkar where it's a visual mess where mesmers glitch half the mechanics porting through walls anyways.

Well it was released Aug 2012 but you were pretty close mate.

Edit

And we get new pve content all the time what we dont get is group instanced content at a good enough rate.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Linken.6345

[vicky.9751]

On 2/25/2023 at 6:39 PM, Linken.6345 said:

Well it was released Aug 2012 but you were pretty close mate.

Edit

And we get new pve content all the time what we dont get is group instanced content at a good enough rate.

sorry man. before 2020, time is a blur for me at this point lol. 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by vicky.9751

[Leger.3724]

I don't have too much of a problem with content being labelled different but it would be nice for consistency. 

And while it would take effort it might be worth renaming Living World stuff into something more coherent and consistent especially since they gave Ice Brood Saga a name. Give the other ones names and give brackets (LWS1, LWS2, etc...) to explain what they were.

The major PVE content I'm okay with:

Dungeons

Fractals

Raids

Strikes

If I am missing anything it should be made a meta event or turned into one of the above four.

In terms of this game - I think the big thing it could have used since launch is simplified currency, more inventory space and bank space. You get way too much gear too quickly and you are given barely any storage to work it. And then you quickly find out you can buy more space for real money and then it doesn't quite feel like an epic adventure or social game.

If I could recommend one or two things to Arena Net for the future or next MMO whether it is Guild Wars or something else:

Simplify currencies to the point where you have a handful and don't start with a dozen and added dozens more with expansions.

Give people ample storage space and reduce the drop rates a bit. Sell extra space if you want like say Runescape does with membership but turn it into something more for collectors or hoarders than something limiting your average player getting started.

And then a third one: combat is too complex because there are too many abilities. One of the things New World was successful at initially was in bringing in lots of player with a very simple combat system. New World blew up for many other reasons but few were criticizing it for having too few abilities. Simple combat allows for player skill to differentiate between themselves in pvp and among groups and group content in pve. Guild Wars 2 feels like memorizing a rotation and sticking to it for max DPS.

Oh and as someone who came from GW1 - please bring back the monks. They were so much better than healers in other games. They made content fun and interesting. The fact they're gone still makes me a little sad over a decade later.

That's my rant over. This game does a lot right but the complexities and the volume of different things whether it's skills or currencies or whatever... it makes the game less approachable. And the lack of space also makes it less approachable as new players manage inventory instead of simply enjoying the game.

[Artyport.2084]

10 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

The OP hasn't really posted since it was pointed out to him that he himself was regularly asking for change so this thread seemed to be I don't want change unless i ask for it lol

I just posted like 5 post above this… 

again your opinion and you trying to control how communicate. 
 

asking for relatively small changes and about combat and visuals isn’t what I’m complaining about anyway which is why I just chose to ignore you. 
 

I’m complaining about a company that has not has 2 consistent years since its inception when it comes to the way they deliver and advertise for their content. 
 

which is fundamentally different than asking for balance updates or giving an alternative to that kitten ugly green mech. 
 

Anyway I’ll continue to ignore you as your only role on these forums seems to be to police people. 
 

your opinion is invalid to me. Speak to the abyss 

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Artyport.2084 said:

I just posted like 5 post above this… 

again your opinion and you trying to control how communicate. 
 

asking for relatively small changes and about combat and visuals isn’t what I’m complaining about anyway which is why I just chose to ignore you. 
 

I’m complaining about a company that has not has 2 consistent years since its inception when it comes to the way they deliver and advertise for their content. 
 

which is fundamentally different than asking for balance updates or giving an alternative to that kitten ugly green mech. 
 

Anyway I’ll continue to ignore you as your only role on these forums seems to be to police people. 
 

your opinion is invalid to me. Speak to the abyss 

I'd say they did have a consistent period in which they provided content.

Heart of Thorns/Season 3/PoF/Season 4

 

2 expansions that delivered zones and elite specs and story with new mastery lines.  2 Living World Seasons that delivered story, expanded mastery lines and didn't have elite specs. Both Seasons offer ascended trinkets and back pieces for people to buy with zone currencies. There's even a progression of the currency from unbound magic to volatile magic.

 

The scheduled may have changed, but there were a lot of changes Anet didn't have control over. The biggest besides covid which probably happened later, was that amazon opened a studio down the block from them and started hiring away top guys. Only the most disingenuous person would expect a schedule to stay stable with that sort of instability.  But the format was the same.  It's just things took longer.

 

When things don't work, companies change them up. And they have the data to know what works and doesn't work. We don't.

[DarcShriek.5829]

I wouldn't consider HoT to be part of the consistent error.  It was 9 months between HoT and season 3.

[Bladestrom.6425]

6 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I'd say they did have a consistent period in which they provided content.

Heart of Thorns/Season 3/PoF/Season 4

 

2 expansions that delivered zones and elite specs and story with new mastery lines.  2 Living World Seasons that delivered story, expanded mastery lines and didn't have elite specs. Both Seasons offer ascended trinkets and back pieces for people to buy with zone currencies. There's even a progression of the currency from unbound magic to volatile magic.

 

The scheduled may have changed, but there were a lot of changes Anet didn't have control over. The biggest besides covid which probably happened later, was that amazon opened a studio down the block from them and started hiring away top guys. Only the most disingenuous person would expect a schedule to stay stable with that sort of instability.  But the format was the same.  It's just things took longer.

 

When things don't work, companies change them up. And they have the data to know what works and doesn't work. We don't.

I agree.  They key aspect of healthy change is intent and from what I can tell Anet is a company that cares about the quality of its product and are prepared to learn and pivot from content that proves less popular.  They also evidently try to maximise the resources they have in the given economic and skill market.

Edited February 26, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Vayne.8563]

6 hours ago, DarcShriek.5829 said:

I wouldn't consider HoT to be part of the consistent error.  It was 9 months between HoT and season 3.

Consistent as in the format didn't change. Nothing changed in the way content was delivered.  The person I was responding too, didn't mention time it took, he mentioned how things kept changing. Things didn't change, it just took more time.

I suppose if you want to get technical, raids being added at that time was in fact something different.  In the 9 months we did receive four raid wings.  That remained consistent as well, since we received raid wings with PoF too. But that didn't work out and Anet switched to strikes after that.

[Bladestrom.6425]

if you want to label the game as consistent then you need to identify the factors and variables, and individual pieces of content in isolation is not that.  What are the measures?

 

- Horizontal,

- Free to play,

- Generosity of spirit (i.e not fighting over loot/nodes)

 - Rich builds,

- Not trinity

- Casual friendly

- No significant power creep

- Healthy wvw, pve, pvp

- Collections at the heart of long term objectives

and others.

 

Seems to me all of those at least have been very consistent over the years when you look at the overall game and not tunnel vision onto element X or Y.

 

 

 

 

[Artyport.2084]

They can’t even consistently drop a release page. The argument that this company is consistent is out the window. 
 

again even during hot to path of fire we went with months of silence after hot. I will give it to them tho. Which is frankly frustrating because many people call back to this as a hood era and then they get hit with the iterative bug again and swing to ice brood saga. No more expansion! Did anyone in their player base ask for that? 
 

Whether it’s financial or not whoever is making the top down decisions for this game clearly just sees it as a little game that is profitable but isn’t worth investing proper strategy into. 
 

hopefully they are working on the successor because that’s the only excuse I could give them for this flippant behavior of a great product they keep letting slip under the radar 

[Bladestrom.6425]

Just now, Artyport.2084 said:

They can’t even consistently drop a release page. The argument that this company is consistent is out the window. 
 

again even during hot to path of fire we went with months of silence after hot. I will give it to them tho. Which is frankly frustrating because many people call back to this as a hood era and then they get hit with the iterative bug again and swing to ice brood saga. No more expansion! Did anyone in their player base ask for that? 
 

Whether it’s financial or not whoever is making the top down decisions for this game clearly just sees it as a little game that is profitable but isn’t worth investing proper strategy into. 
 

hopefully they are working on the successor because that’s the only excuse I could give them for this flippant behavior of a great product they keep letting slip under the radar 

 

a release page is not a core factor that defines the consistency of guild wars 2 as a cohesive long lived product either is a map.   

[Astralporing.1957]

On 2/23/2023 at 8:17 PM, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

What fights against this is greedy companies who put profit over quality and i don't think Anet is one of those companies.

Need i mention build templates, that are a very good example of the "profit over quality" approach? Or the original "mountgate", where MO admitted that the first mount select license was designed to be random, because they knew that only some of the skins in it were worth the gem price tag? Or lootboxes in general being an epitome of greedy approach to sales and marketing?

And all that was before restructurizing that made Anet of today not a semi-independent studio as it was before, but just an extension of NCSoft, which is very well known for going for profit over anything else.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Gibson.4036]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

, where MO admitted that the first mount select license was designed to be random, because they knew that only some of the skins in it were worth the gem price tag? 

This is inaccurate.

After reading someone reference this on the forums, I recently went back and found ArenaNet’s statement. What they said is that some mount skins are more niche, while others are hugely popular. The loot box system was an attempt to be able to keep providing the variety, instead of just producing the skins that appeal to the largest number of players.

It wasn’t that they were lumping inferior skins in with better quality ones. Some skins were worth the price to some people, only a smaller number, and therefore not worth producing alone to ArenaNet.

Loot box was a terrible solution, but as someone who likes a lot of entertainment that only finds a niche audience, I can appreciate the thought behind it.

ArenaNet was trying to find a way to not just produce glowing, light-show mounts skins.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Bakeneko.5826]

4 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

- Not trinity

- No significant power creep

Tank/Spank/Support is very much a thing in GW2.

And compare core classes to elites - creep is very clear, PoF was biggest offender.

[Bladestrom.6425]

1 hour ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Tank/Spank/Support is very much a thing in GW2.

And compare core classes to elites - creep is very clear, PoF was biggest offender.

The point stands, GW2 is not a trinity game.  Groups may ofc choose to tank and spank and its evolved to be mandatory in some content, especially raids, but hybrid builds are extremely healthy, for e.g in wvw/pve/most instances that are not tuned - they are everywhere.  As for power creep, relative to every other AAA mmorpg the creep is negligible.

6 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Need i mention build templates, that are a very good example of the "profit over quality" approach? Or the original "mountgate", where MO admitted that the first mount select license was designed to be random, because they knew that only some of the skins in it were worth the gem price tag? Or lootboxes in general being an epitome of greedy approach to sales and marketing?

And all that was before restructurizing that made Anet of today not a semi-independent studio as it was before, but just an extension of NCSoft, which is very well known for going for profit over anything else.

 

Build templates were brilliant for some,  i've bought many for example, its actually really really good that I can invest in something that's not a skin.  Items in the gem shop are meant to  be desirable (tick) and not mandatory (tick) .

As for about lootboxes, perhaps put it into context i.e they are optional and there is no sub in this game.   Anet has to get some investment to cover running costs and give profit they are not a charity, and they equally don't announce obscene profits. That aside, lootboxes is really beyond the scope of this chat, otherwise we are going into the realms of discussing addictive personalities etc etc.

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563