Squads (Suggestion)

[SunsetGuardian.5921]

Private squads are absolute hell for people who don't have a WvW guild but still want to enjoy the game mode. Many guilds believe they deserve to run private, scorning any and all pugs even when they have a squad full of 50. Other tags run private just because they believe it's impossible for people to play the game without being in a voice chat- which is rather bad discrimination against deaf players. There are some squads that run private because it's just a small group of friends, but that case is beside the point.

 

That said, I believe it would be beneficial to the game mode if squads could only be private when there are 10/15 or fewer players in the squad. This would enable groups of friends to run together privately without making pugs feel left out.

 

Other than that, there could be an actual system for squads; possibly similar to the dungeon/raid LFG que system that other games have. A selectable or pop-up option can be: "Do you want to join a squad?" Click Yes and you're placed into an available squad. To prevent grief from guilds, there can be an option for a guild-only squad where you can not join the squad unless you are in the same guild.

[Ronin.4501]

My guild runs private for one reason only (and we're usually anywhere from 10-20 in number): being hunted by enemy guilds that typically outnumber us by 20-30 and follow us from map to map. Yes, they can continue to figure out which map we might have moved to, but short of having someone who follows us around on the map, running tagless allows us to keep our exact whereabouts somewhat secret.

And the reality of it is, even without the option to run a private tag, it will always be possible to have the commander drop squad and rejoin to run a "tagless" squad, so it's really a moot point anyways.

[Hesione.9412]

When I'm running in a private squad, we're comp'd and balanced, with people being asked to switch characters or builds so that the comp is met. Utilities get swapped around as necessary. We're expected, not unreasonably, to be on tag at all times. We're getting instructions from the comm on the upcoming strategy.

Adding in pugs or people not in comms means that people just run whatever they want, run around wherever they want (comm only wants the sentry taken by one person, no worries, 10 pugs will go and cap; comm wants people to move with them, watch the 15 pugs chase down 1 or 2 players on the opposing team, moving away from the comm). 

Pugmanders know this will happen, and accept it as part of running an open squad. Even then, a pugmander can push and watch 1/3 to 1/2 the squad stay behind because.... reasons.

 

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, SunsetGuardian.5921 said:

Private squads are absolute hell for people who don't have a WvW guild but still want to enjoy the game mode. Many guilds believe they deserve to run private, scorning any and all pugs even when they have a squad full of 50.

Lolwat? Guilds aint gonna run 50 man hidden squads unless its a massive community guild, the "fight commanders" do. They will have the demand you're on discord (likely to be server discord) and bring a meta zergling build. Your guild is completely irrelevant.

Actual hidden guild runs is only gonna be around 10-25 people.

And also WvW has an LFG function its just that no one uses it because you either queue the borders that got people on hence obvious commanders or you're free to check the border yourself.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Xenesis.6389]

So why not create your own squad?

Everyone has a right to play the game the way they want, with whomever they want.

If you want to join "their" private group, logically you need to follow "their" rules.

Or make your own groups with your own rules and advertise it openly.

If you really need hand holding then wait for a pug commander to show up.

[blp.3489]

What might be nice is a commander-like tag that identifies you as a regular player that just wants a way for fellow players to gather together without any implication that you are a "qualified commander" who knows how to "command" a squad and wants everyone to stay on tag at all times.

[TheGrimm.5624]

13 hours ago, SunsetGuardian.5921 said:

Private squads are absolute hell for people who don't have a WvW guild but still want to enjoy the game mode. Many guilds believe they deserve to run private, scorning any and all pugs even when they have a squad full of 50. Other tags run private just because they believe it's impossible for people to play the game without being in a voice chat- which is rather bad discrimination against deaf players. There are some squads that run private because it's just a small group of friends, but that case is beside the point.

 

That said, I believe it would be beneficial to the game mode if squads could only be private when there are 10/15 or fewer players in the squad. This would enable groups of friends to run together privately without making pugs feel left out.

 

Other than that, there could be an actual system for squads; possibly similar to the dungeon/raid LFG que system that other games have. A selectable or pop-up option can be: "Do you want to join a squad?" Click Yes and you're placed into an available squad. To prevent grief from guilds, there can be an option for a guild-only squad where you can not join the squad unless you are in the same guild.

Pugmanders are a thing already. People run public tags without guildmates all the time. If you have a large number of private tags, get a tag and tag up and encourage others to do so. You might also need to counter balance those that are calling out your public tags or ask people to get on tag if the culture has become one that avoids the public tags. It took a long time to get private tags so smaller groups and groups that wanted more structure could act without a negative impact on their groups or the public tags, so no -1 here for removing private tags.

[Chips.7968]

On 3/18/2023 at 3:06 AM, SunsetGuardian.5921 said:

Private squads are absolute hell for people who don't have a WvW guild but still want to enjoy the game mode. Many guilds believe they deserve to run private, scorning any and all pugs even when they have a squad full of 50. Other tags run private just because they believe it's impossible for people to play the game without being in a voice chat- which is rather bad discrimination against deaf players. There are some squads that run private because it's just a small group of friends, but that case is beside the point.

 

That said, I believe it would be beneficial to the game mode if squads could only be private when there are 10/15 or fewer players in the squad. This would enable groups of friends to run together privately without making pugs feel left out.

 

Other than that, there could be an actual system for squads; possibly similar to the dungeon/raid LFG que system that other games have. A selectable or pop-up option can be: "Do you want to join a squad?" Click Yes and you're placed into an available squad. To prevent grief from guilds, there can be an option for a guild-only squad where you can not join the squad unless you are in the same guild.

The delicious irony that groups wanting to play together and choose to do so should not have the choice to do so, so that YOU may have the choice to join them.

Why is your choice > collectively their choice. The option to play together is available to *all* who choose to do so.

You can, as others have said, create a tag/group, invite people to join. Similarly you can say you're looking for a guild to join (in map or team chat) and other means to get into groups. There are usually (on most servers) community guilds/groups from which to learn, join in with - and often they'll run events (like near reset to do guild missions, a great way to get to know more). Often see people asking if any small scale roaming groups around and so on. 

The problem with what I say above is, of course, you gave no indication if you've tried all that.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Chips.7968

[SunsetGuardian.5921]

Good to know no one knows how to read more than the very first part of anything that's written.

 

On 3/17/2023 at 11:33 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Lolwat? Guilds aint gonna run 50 man hidden squads unless its a massive community guild, the "fight commanders" do. They will have the demand you're on discord (likely to be server discord) and bring a meta zergling build. Your guild is completely irrelevant.

Actual hidden guild runs is only gonna be around 10-25 people.

And also WvW has an LFG function its just that no one uses it because you either queue the borders that got people on hence obvious commanders or you're free to check the border yourself.

 

You obviously haven't played too often, or during peak hours, if you honestly think 50 man guild squads don't run private. Go play more WvW then come back.

 

On 3/17/2023 at 9:44 PM, Ronin.4501 said:

My guild runs private for one reason only (and we're usually anywhere from 10-20 in number): being hunted by enemy guilds that typically outnumber us by 20-30 and follow us from map to map. Yes, they can continue to figure out which map we might have moved to, but short of having someone who follows us around on the map, running tagless allows us to keep our exact whereabouts somewhat secret.

And the reality of it is, even without the option to run a private tag, it will always be possible to have the commander drop squad and rejoin to run a "tagless" squad, so it's really a moot point anyways.

 

One of my suggestions were geared toward what you just said. Go back and properly read my post.

 

10 hours ago, Chips.7968 said:

The delicious irony that groups wanting to play together and choose to do so should not have the choice to do so, so that YOU may have the choice to join them.

Why is your choice > collectively their choice. The option to play together is available to *all* who choose to do so.

You can, as others have said, create a tag/group, invite people to join. Similarly you can say you're looking for a guild to join (in map or team chat) and other means to get into groups. There are usually (on most servers) community guilds/groups from which to learn, join in with - and often they'll run events (like near reset to do guild missions, a great way to get to know more). Often see people asking if any small scale roaming groups around and so on. 

The problem with what I say above is, of course, you gave no indication if you've tried all that.

 

No indication of what I personally have done was given because this is a suggestion post, not a complaint post. Go back and properly read what was written.

 

 

My post wasn't just complaints, it was suggestions.

Again- squads being private just because they think deaf players can't possibly play the game properly is discrimination. Last I checked, discrimination is bad and not something to encourage. Being forced to join a voice chat just to be allowed into a squad is discrimination. I gave a couple suggestions to counter this issue.

[Chaba.5410]

On 3/17/2023 at 8:06 PM, SunsetGuardian.5921 said:

Private squads are absolute hell for people who don't have a WvW guild but still want to enjoy the game mode.

Not really.  If you played at any time between launch and HoT, before the Squad UI was implemented, you'd know that no one joined a commander's squad and it was totally fine and no one had any complaints about not being in a party or squad.  In other words, squads aren't the necessity you seem to think they are.

Also, what's your excuse for not purchasing a tag and creating your own kind of squad that you want to see?  What's actually beneficial to the game mode is when new players are willing to tag up when needed and not always rely on the same old commanders and guilds.  Trying to force others to let you into their private squad uninvited is actually kind of rude.  Now if you wanted to have a feature where you click Yes to joining a squad and are placed into an un-commanded pick-up squad with other players, that's probably better but you'll still be stuck with no one to lead it.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

3 hours ago, SunsetGuardian.5921 said:

squads being private just because they think deaf players can't possibly play the game properly is discrimination

I don't know where you get this from.  I know of a deaf player who is in a fight guild that runs privately.

[kash.9213]

On 3/18/2023 at 9:00 AM, blp.3489 said:

What might be nice is a commander-like tag that identifies you as a regular player that just wants a way for fellow players to gather together without any implication that you are a "qualified commander" who knows how to "command" a squad and wants everyone to stay on tag at all times.

I rep a friends backup guild to the main guild most of the time and it's casually picked up other people who mostly like to vibe and wander around. When we do form a squad, it's mostly to fit a few more people into group to ping the map as a heads up and to help read the maps breathing when we run around. I don't join groups otherwise because I don't want to be a distracting dot on the map for a commander or frustrate people when I use Alert Target. When one of them does unhide tag, it's mostly as a fixer upper to set a tempo someplace real quick or to pull aggro for the map to work off of for a while in the hopes that one of the shift tags or a fully comped guild logs on soon. 

There's a lot of people to cover and a lot of downed to pick up when people are expecting a map driving squad or blob instead and if they don't move or react with their peripheral sense or know when to peel or run a split, you feel bad that they followed you into a lit up area. 

It would be nice if there was a unique looking tag with a clear McDonalds Menu style UI prompt to explain what that kind of tag is about when people join or hover over. 

Edited March 20, 2023 by kash.9213

[Dawdler.8521]

5 hours ago, SunsetGuardian.5921 said:

Again- squads being private just because they think deaf players can't possibly play the game properly is discrimination. Last I checked, discrimination is bad and not something to encourage. Being forced to join a voice chat just to be allowed into a squad is discrimination. I gave a couple suggestions to counter this issue.

Seeking victimhood where every player has the freedom to do what they want - including commanders showing/not showing the tag or demanding discord - isnt going to take you anywhere.

Your suggestion wouldnt do anything for your issue. Ok so the commander cant hide the tag at 15+. Fine. They will still demand discord for an invite. Are you going to tell them they're not allowed to demand discord too? You're going to say that speaking at all is discrimination, they have to use chat to command? 

The situation might suck but that's why guilds exists. Find one that accepts your disability and know you cant be on voice. Or find a commander that doesnt care or isnt even on voice. Voiceless PUGs run around all over WvW. Even better - command yourself. Not everything has to be a 50+ fight group able to stack on a plate and go head to head with the enemy prime zerg. Being a good commander is more than just being on discord and people actually appreciate good PUGs.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Ronin.4501]

6 hours ago, SunsetGuardian.5921 said:

One of my suggestions were geared toward what you just said. Go back and properly read my post.

I properly read your post. You said, and I quote, "That said, I believe it would be beneficial to the game mode if squads could only be private when there are 10/15 or fewer players in the squad." And if you properly read my response, I said we run anywhere from 10-20 players, meaning if we had more than 15 our guild wouldn't be able to run private according to your suggestion. And considering the guilds that tend to hunt my guild often run 2x or greater numbers, that's a resounding NO in response to your suggestion.

As to the issue of guilds rejecting you (or anyone else) because you're deaf, while there are no doubt some guilds who may reject players because of this, I think the greater majority of guilds would be very welcoming and accommodating in allowing someone who is deaf to join their squad; all they have to do is ask. Just because a guild runs tagless doesn't mean they aren't willing to allow others to join their squad. As I explained in my previous post, we run tagless to avoid detection by enemy guilds. Furthermore, a lot of guilds run tagless because they aren't interested in playing the role of pugmander, and on some servers tagging up means attracting the majority of the players on the map, which means half the squad squirrels off in random directions when 1-2 enemy players are nearby, they don't push together in unison when engaging enemy players, etc.

If you are routinely encountering no guilds/players who tag up or discriminate against you, I suggest it might be time to try another server, as there are plenty of servers out there who are very welcoming towards guildless players or deaf players if they simply explain their situation.

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

On 3/17/2023 at 8:06 PM, SunsetGuardian.5921 said:

Private squads are absolute hell for people who don't have a WvW guild but still want to enjoy the game mode. Many guilds believe they deserve to run private, scorning any and all pugs even when they have a squad full of 50. Other tags run private just because they believe it's impossible for people to play the game without being in a voice chat- which is rather bad discrimination against deaf players. There are some squads that run private because it's just a small group of friends, but that case is beside the point.

 

That said, I believe it would be beneficial to the game mode if squads could only be private when there are 10/15 or fewer players in the squad. This would enable groups of friends to run together privately without making pugs feel left out.

 

Other than that, there could be an actual system for squads; possibly similar to the dungeon/raid LFG que system that other games have. A selectable or pop-up option can be: "Do you want to join a squad?" Click Yes and you're placed into an available squad. To prevent grief from guilds, there can be an option for a guild-only squad where you can not join the squad unless you are in the same guild.

Guilds, and individuals, absolutely have the right to run any way they wish.  Just as I have the right to run in wvw any way I wish.   However, if I want to join a squad then I make it a point to ask them and see what conditions they have for joining the group.  If I’m willing to meet those conditions then they let me in.  If not then I head off to continue to do my own thing.  

Edited March 20, 2023 by Some Call Me Tim.2319

[Boh.4568]

If you see a group you can still follow them even if the tag requires an invite to join. A fully hidden tag is usually a guild or a small group of friends.

I you want to join a private tag without voice or without a meta build, think about why you want to join the squad. Is it for boonshare? Then you are the one requiring a FB and a tempest/scrapper in your party, they must play meta and give you stab, cleanse and heal, why shouldn't you play meta to give them boonrip and DPS?

If it's not for boonshare you can still follow the squad from outside. Once the parties are made, due to the target cap, you wouldn't get stab anyway, if you are in the "hub" party1.

[TheGrimm.5624]

13 hours ago, SunsetGuardian.5921 said:

Again- squads being private just because they think deaf players can't possibly play the game properly is discrimination. Last I checked, discrimination is bad and not something to encourage. Being forced to join a voice chat just to be allowed into a squad is discrimination. I gave a couple suggestions to counter this issue.

I am sorry you are running into jerks. Especially if a player told them voice would do no good for them. But limiting all the other reasons people go private over the instances of people being jerks also doesn't make sense. I admit when I run with a squad I am rarely, closer to never currently, which will change with Alliances, in voice with them. Mostly since I am in voice with my guild, who might be in 7 different games at the time while we chat. I have run two different voice apps to do cross overs in the past when multiple groups would be running in sequence, but never while pugging, you just follow along and stick to tag or follow their actions via mini-maps. If worst case the player could tell them, then join voice though it would do no good and if they get called out, tell the jerk I told you. Remember jerks are jerks because people don't call them on it.

Hidden larger groups are still going to trigger OJs that mark their path, you just treat your side like you would the enemy side while you move along. But forcing tags to be visible just gets us back to people complaining at others to go away, or draw people away from the public tags making them detag because they lost numbers to other tags. In general it confuses players on where actions were occurring. Had an issue this weekend where people taking T0 structures were trying to tag to draw people away from trying to hold a T3 keep for whatever reason they were doing it. Told them to go private and had to ask, why trade a T3 keep for a T0 tower, not a good call. Maybe if tags had had labels or changed shape as people joined to indicate size there still might have been calls for private tags as people were concerned with tag spies following movements via multiple accounts. In all cases its complicated. Ironic but cloud communities grow from people not having tags and that can create it own testing ground to shape players. Best options, find a more friendly tag, find people that are like minded or likewise find some growing havocs to hunt with. Good hunting!