CC CC CC Stunbreak+Stability CC CC CC CC CC CC CC CC CC CC CC CC CC CC CC CC ... Dead

[Chaba.5410]

27 minutes ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

the original designers of this game had a better clue of how to build it

The biggest complaint then was that there was no practical counter for the original design though.  It rendered CC skills useless and ineffective which leads me to the other thing you wrote:
 

27 minutes ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

If you look at applying CC you also need to factor in applying counter-CC

The same principle holds true.  When you look at applying stab you need to also factor in applying counter-stab.  At the time the counter to stab was boon strips, which at the time were also hard to access.  Cover boons always protected the stab, not unlike they do today.  Strips and conversions also are counter for boons in general, not specifically stab.  CC is the proper counter to stab today.

This isn't to say that adjustments to stab and stun break skills aren't warranted, only to point out that the underlying design principle isn't necessarily the cause.
 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

13 hours ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

sanctuary, baby gates, line of warding, static field,

Those don't strip stability unless the player isn't watching and panic spamming their movement keys and keep running into them.

Let's be honest that the bubble on sanctuary doesn't always render well, but the character bouncing off it is unmistakable.  Open eyes help.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

4 hours ago, blp.3489 said:

I don't think it's practical to read the attack animations of a multitude of enemies, especially when they are stacked and you are all but blinded by the special effects bonanza.

Of course it's not practical.  This is one of the things that separate the experienced WvW player from the inexperienced: learning how to "read" a mass group fight.  Part of it requires knowing what the current meta is, cycling through tab targeting to understand the composition of the enemy group, watching their movement, learning their engagement patterns, being familiar with terrain and how it's used, etc.  You watch the classes that are initiators or the most dangerous or most squishy.  You don't watch everyone individually.  Example: Find the spellbreaker.  He usually runs out ahead to drop Winds as the entire group is about to follow with a melee push.  Target him and strip his boons before he can get close.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[subversiontwo.7501]

23 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

The biggest complaint then was that there was no practical counter for the original design though.  It rendered CC skills useless and ineffective which leads me to the other thing you wrote:

The practical counter back then, as it has remained now as two more experienced groups meet, is that it was more about timing and strips. No good groups today try to rotate stab, instead they use it at specific amounts in specific situations when they anticipate control. It was the same back then, just fewer groups with enough experience: Also that people understood that free movement and crowd control does not sit at a balance to begin with. Free movement is the norm and crowd control is an exception. However, that is yet another layer of the balance that doesn't directly relate to the balance of CC and counter-CC. I'm mostly making the remark that I made to point people towards segmenting their discussion as it helps them to hold it. Then they don't have to consider that a game where you spend a theoretically-balanced amount of time crowd controlled, is a bad game. CC was no less useless or ineffective than it is now: Things that powerful are meant to be sparse, but like I said, if people want to talk CC balance they do better at segmenting that.

23 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

This isn't to say that adjustments to stab and stun break skills aren't warranted, only to point out that the underlying design principle isn't necessarily the cause.
 

Well, what the OP is missing is that CC strips stab. That is the big change from vanilla. That is also the big factor with the recent changes, because by nerfing stab we become less dependent on stripping and can just spam CC, which we do. That is the gravitation that we are seeing (the pirate ship, the clouding, the ganking, the less busting, the fewer small groups, the more support-demanding meta, the more private groups etc.). It all ties into that even if there are more factors to it than just the CC-balance.

Edited March 23, 2023 by subversiontwo.7501

[Chaba.5410]

2 minutes ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

Well, what the OP is missing is that CC strips stab. That is the big change from vanilla. That is also the big factor with the recent changes, because by nerfing stab we become less dependent on stripping and can just spam CC, which we do. That is the gravitation that we are seeing (the pirate ship, the clouding, the ganking, the less busting, the fewer small groups, the more support-demanding meta, the more private groups etc.). It all ties into that even if there are more factors to it than just the CC-balance.

Boon stripping/conversion isn't where it needs to be to counter boons well.  Winds of Disenchantment, for example, was nerfed.

(A guild I run with gravitated more towards melee than pirate ship ironically.)

[subversiontwo.7501]

41 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Boon stripping/conversion isn't where it needs to be to counter boons well.  Winds of Disenchantment, for example, was nerfed.

(A guild I run with gravitated more towards melee than pirate ship ironically.)

You have NA to thank for the Winds change by the way. There's a story about how NA eagerly pushed for that change, while EU didn't protest enough and those from EU who voiced their concerns stronger about it got kicked off the Discord for it (though I'm sure they didn't phrase their concerns in the nicest way possible, but there you have it).

The other thing is kind of hard to comment on. I fear it will go down yet another path. The issue now isn't that stripping is too strong, the issue is that Anet choose to make stab in particular so inaccessible that its demand has been driven up. It's the CC that does that, not the stripping. At this point, I don't even know if enough public groups form and enough sites are curated to establish any solid-enough new meta. However, it is safe to assume that any new meta establishing will not just have 2/5 spots providing stability. It is more in that area where my concerns lie tbh.

However, if the norms we push are closer to 4/5 providing boons and 1/5 providing strips, I would probably be cautious to draw that kind of conclusion about where strips are. I'll say that much. Yet, the Winds change was still a bad change 🙂 .

Edited March 23, 2023 by subversiontwo.7501

[Zyreva.1078]

4 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

The same would go for let's say damage. There's a balance between damage and heals (or similar effects). Then there is applying damage and applying heals. Application is important in its own right but it is a separate issue with its own balance. We don't throw the balance, of eg., damage and heals, just because dodges, buffs and debuffs apply there too.

But "application" is (and needs to be) taken into consideration when it comes to dmg numbers and cc is no exception. Numbers have to be balanced with active defense/counters in mind.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[IndigoSundown.5419]

What's broken about CC is there is no short-term CC immunity after you've been CC'd.  Good games have it.

[Chaba.5410]

8 minutes ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

What's broken about CC is there is no short-term CC immunity after you've been CC'd.  Good games have it.

What's the expectation here though?  Like the example I cited above where players spam their movement keys and keep running into a sanctuary or line of warding.  Are you supposed to not pay attention to your own movement?

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

I’ve always thought that it would be a good middle ground to have a defiance mechanic (immune to all CC) for 1s or so when you ACTIVELY break a stun. If you miss the timing of it and use a stun break when you aren’t cc’d, no defiance state. It wouldn’t apply to you if you have stab, and you can still get completely CC locked if you run out of breaks and stab, but would make individual stun breaks more appealing in busy fights while not completely ruining the current system. Some stun breaks already have this theme because they apply stab on casting of the stun break skill, but a lot of times you can’t get recc’d or corrupted through it.

[zengara.8301]

Feels like people are just going back to "what do I want the game mode to be about?". But again, if you zoom out, it feels like the entire game mode (combat/PvP wise) can be sectioned into modes, where either clouding/ganking/big blobs are in focus or Guilds are in focus. Where making clouding a possibility (no retaliation, like when you would insta die as an ele everytime you thew a metoer, and people got asked to leave the border because guilds were the literal only way to kill another guild) and guilds are needed but not the end all be all, is where Gw2 should try to aim the game mode at? If they are ultra focussed on balance to this degree, no idea if they actually are. Since too much clouding/blobbing=boring, Vabbi/magumma. Too much guild=ppl being left out and boring when u don't want to be in guild. But having better guilds actually win against blobs, but no retaliation would be prefered,

 

Again, making this game a cloud fiesta/ganking would just kill it like literally every other open world pvp game......Because it is boring. The game having coordination, in regards to different roles, needing to avoid bombs etc. Is what I think, is the only thing "keeping it alive". And game gets boring like now, when guilds feels like there is nothing to do, because an average blob can kill 15-20 of the best players in a guild. 

Or honestly, maybe they should just try different things in EU and in NA. NA does just seem far more, empower, veil, 1 push heavy and EU, more dmg/boons/heals so 1 push are not really viable in that region. Would also be more fun to transfer to either that way

[Chaba.5410]

2 hours ago, UncreativeGreen.2019 said:

I’ve always thought that it would be a good middle ground to have a defiance mechanic (immune to all CC) for 1s or so when you ACTIVELY break a stun. If you miss the timing of it and use a stun break when you aren’t cc’d, no defiance state. It wouldn’t apply to you if you have stab, and you can still get completely CC locked if you run out of breaks and stab, but would make individual stun breaks more appealing in busy fights while not completely ruining the current system. Some stun breaks already have this theme because they apply stab on casting of the stun break skill, but a lot of times you can’t get recc’d or corrupted through it.

Stability already has a 0.75 second "immunity" between stack removal.  It's just not on the last stack.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Dayra.7405]

21 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Funny how we talk about too much CC's, but you walk up to a lord and it dies before it's bar is broken cause everyone suddenly forgot what a CC is. 🤭

If I would have a break-bar like a lord, then we wouldn't need to talk 😉

[prototypedragon.1406]

I'm curious though if it could be improved mostly by causing boon removals to remove all stability stacks first then followed by protection then any random boon afterward that way boons require more timing and skill use along with counter play to bait the other enemy group into popping their major boons early and thus have some additional counter play perhaps?🤔 Since boon removals themselves are quite far and in between compared to what they use to be.

[Zyreva.1078]

8 hours ago, Dayra.7405 said:

If I would have a break-bar like a lord, then we wouldn't need to talk 😉

So you'd prefer to get cced for 5 s while also taking increased dmg with no counterplay whatsoever?

[SlateSloan.3654]

Patchnotes from GW1:

•    ⁠Patch 1.4.0 (2005-04-19): A handful of spells were added to the list of spells subject to diminishing returns in PvP. It is our goal to set as few spells as possible to be diminished. We've identified this short list of spells as having durations and cooldowns sufficient to almost permanently slow or immobilize targets but without adequate controls or other limiting factors. When a spell with diminishing returns is used against a target in PvP, the first effect has full duration.On the second use of the same category of spell (e.g. slowing), that spell's duration is reduced by 50%. On the third use, the duration is reduced by 75%. On the fourth attempt, the target becomes immune to the spell. Spells must be used on the same target within 15 seconds of the end of the duration in order to be diminished. In other words, if a target hasn't had a slowing spell active on them for more than 15 seconds, the next slowing spell will have full effect.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

So you'd prefer to get cced for 5 s while also taking increased dmg with no counterplay whatsoever?

*Hammer quivers with anticipation*

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

34 minutes ago, SlateSloan.3654 said:

Patchnotes from GW1:

•    ⁠Patch 1.4.0 (2005-04-19): A handful of spells were added to the list of spells subject to diminishing returns in PvP. It is our goal to set as few spells as possible to be diminished. We've identified this short list of spells as having durations and cooldowns sufficient to almost permanently slow or immobilize targets but without adequate controls or other limiting factors. When a spell with diminishing returns is used against a target in PvP, the first effect has full duration.On the second use of the same category of spell (e.g. slowing), that spell's duration is reduced by 50%. On the third use, the duration is reduced by 75%. On the fourth attempt, the target becomes immune to the spell. Spells must be used on the same target within 15 seconds of the end of the duration in order to be diminished. In other words, if a target hasn't had a slowing spell active on them for more than 15 seconds, the next slowing spell will have full effect.

 

GW1 did not have stability or stunbreaks, also that patch was for snares not the couple of hard CCs that existed at that time. 

[Mikhael.2391]

22 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

 

But for small scale? That list I gave applies. Stab and stunbreaks are not the only counters to CC. For some all you need to do is WASD out of the way before the hit connects, or to get out of range of the ward before it lands or walk around it after it lands. 

And how to you apply anything before it connects lets say when you have 2 or 3 thiefs coming from stealth with inturrupts that corrupt stability first  and just add2s to the ALREADY cd on the way? This stupid thign is a problem, if you ve been inturrupted and have a cd on abilities you should not be inturrupted again because you STILL are inturrupted from last cc, and stunbreaks dont always remove the cd from skill when you use them so its useless. You could fix this in smallscale and as said before in the big numbers game would not affect almost nothing so no reason not to balance it well according to smallscale. Some of us like to think and not be a vegetable while chasing a commander and spamming 1 on keyboard.

[MarzAttakz.9608]

15 minutes ago, Mikhael.2391 said:

And how to you apply anything before it connects lets say when you have 2 or 3 thiefs coming from stealth with inturrupts that corrupt stability first  and just add2s to the ALREADY cd on the way? This stupid thign is a problem, if you ve been inturrupted and have a cd on abilities you should not be inturrupted again because you STILL are inturrupted from last cc, and stunbreaks dont always remove the cd from skill when you use them so its useless.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here - that's actually the biggest issue for me.

[cyberzombie.7348]

19 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

You have NA to thank for the Winds change by the way. There's a story about how NA eagerly pushed for that change, while EU didn't protest enough and those from EU who voiced their concerns stronger about it got kicked off the Discord for it (though I'm sure they didn't phrase their concerns in the nicest way possible, but there you have it).

Hold up...  So they made a balancing decision on the main things that kept boonballs in check, in some random discord meeting?!

*flips desk*

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Mikhael.2391 said:

And how to you apply anything before it connects lets say when you have 2 or 3 thiefs coming from stealth with inturrupts that corrupt stability first  and just add2s to the ALREADY cd on the way? 

That is an issue with stealth being too powerful in this game.

[Chaba.5410]

2 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Hold up...  So they made a balancing decision on the main things that kept boonballs in check, in some random discord meeting?!

*flips desk*

He said there was a disussion occurring in a discord, not that there was a decision. We discuss the game here too and also get moderated.

[Xenesis.6389]

3 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Hold up...  So they made a balancing decision on the main things that kept boonballs in check, in some random discord meeting?!

*flips desk*

A lot of changes get made that weren't even discussed in the forums, I mean even just going by the forums where people mostly discuss keeping boons in check while the opposite continues to happen. So where do you think they get the ideas for them? that whole balance blow up they had last summer was from a discord group too. 🤷‍♂️

 

[blp.3489]

I kind of wish they would make a stability attribute that one could trade off against the other attributes.  I'm sure there's a million reasons why that would be a bad idea but it would provide nice training wheels for us newbies.