Why are most players so ignorant of how bad they are?

[Kstyle.5829]

For everyone on the forums who whines about losing to classes, why is your first instinct that the class is overpowered?  I have asked many of these players which classes they play, and they always only give me 1 answer.  I've personally played every class in the game to at least platinum elo, and I still think I'm pretty ignorant about how to balance the game.  But you play only 1 class, and don't even know the abilities and skills other classes have, but you think that the reason you're losing is because of game balance?

 

Right now everybody is whining about some horrible scrapper full PVE build with 1 stunbreak an no stability.  I've personally never seen a single person running this build in the top 100.  I mean I play scrapper (I like reaper a lot more right now) but that's the last build I would use to push rating, as it's just good for stomping noobs who can't react in time.  That's about it.  A good player just predicts your obvious burst, and then CC's you 2 times and you're dead.  But since nobody plays scrapper, most noobs don't even understand the classes abilities.   They are just basing their opinions off the fact they are losing fights against it.  If you truly believe the class to be strong, why not play the class to test your theory instead of whining about it on the forums first?

 

If you actually go on the balance notes you can see that scrapper has only been nerffed for the last 2 years.  Something like 20 nerfs.  So these players think a class is suddenly overpowered, even though it has only gotten objectively weaker.  It's literally only strong because it's a PVE damage build and lower skilled players are trying to play the game reactively instead of predictably.  So ANET will probably ruin the whole class just because a PVE build became popular in the lower elo brackets.  There's nothing actually good about it from a competitive standpoint.  Just big numbers on grenades.  

 

So we have people who are just playing unranked games who think they know about class balance, even though they only play 1 class and are bad at that class.  It's really sad because ANET has to appease their "customer base" and that means just handing out nerfs where they really aren't warranted.  How often are classes nerffed not because a build is strong, but because it is popular and players struggle with it due to ignorance?  The vast majority of the time.  If a class can go 2 years with only having nerfs to suddenly be perceived as "meta" then it just proves the community is ignorant about game balance.

 

If you really wanted to see if a class was strong or weak, you can't just have an emotional reaction to losing.   It would be better to try the class yourself, but even that is subjective.  You would need to have everyone try all the classes, an look at the data regarding which classes perform best.  Otherwise we are just nerffing and buffing things based on what people "believe" to be strong or weak.  That's the cycle we have right now.  Noobs cry on forums an ANET tries to appease the masses.  Balancing around low elo players has driven all the top players to quit besides the last few raging addicts.  And the cycles of random nerfs and buffs will just continue endlessly until they finally shut this dead game down.    It just makes me sad that every time I come here and look at the forums I see people posting about what "needs" to be changed in PVP.  And the most vocal people talking about balance is always some silver ranked scrub that bases his entire post off the fact he rage quit after wasting an entire game dueling a bunker at far.  

Edited March 27, 2023 by Kstyle.5829

[Downstate.4697]

Most people playing PvP are below platinum. Scrapper isn’t fun to play against. It’s just spamming nades and running away with superspeed. No one wants to chase one down.

[Hotride.2187]

42 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Most people playing PvP are below platinum. Scrapper isn’t fun to play against. It’s just spamming nades and running away with superspeed. No one wants to chase one down.

Why are you chasing it though? Its conquest, not wvw. You have something to do, instead of chasing players around the map.

From what I've read there are other arguments about why its too strong, e.g. 2 of them nuking you out of stealth. That makes more sense to me as an actual problem.

[Stalima.5490]

It doesn't need to be in the top 100 to be overpowered, it can easily be said that any build that can kill an enemy in less than 5 seconds is overpowered because that is quite literally overpowered.

 

The point being is that the actual intended purpose of said build is overpowered at what it is specifically designed for and this does not just apply to scrapper but things like deadeye and basically the whole mesmer class

[Eugchriss.2046]

TThere is a thing called indirect evidence. In the case of mmo, one of these indirect evidence would be the sudden rise of players playing a specific class, weapon, etc... 

To keep to short, you don't have to play every class to know which class is OP and which one isn't. Huge amount of people suddenly playing scrapper indirectly proves that scrapper is OP in some way. For the same reason that you don't need to play core engi to know that it's trash.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Eugchriss.2046

[Eugchriss.2046]

1 hour ago, Kstyle.5829 said:

 If a class can go 2 years with only having nerfs to suddenly be perceived as "meta" then it just proves the community is ignorant about game balance.

Tbh you are the ignorant one for not acknowledging that the said class evolves in an ecosystem. Changing part of that ecosystem will indirectly affect the unchanged part of that same ecosystem. example:

• class A is a 10 
• class B is 7
• class C is 5

Class A will be considered OP because it has the higher score. Now after some changes:

• class A is 4
• class B is 3
• class C is 5

Class C is now considered OP even though it hasn' t be touched.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Eugchriss.2046

[Stalima.5490]

As this seems to be about the scrapper, the OP doesn't seem to understand the full extent of what has actually happened:

 

Gyro buffs

Hammer buffs

Tool kit buffs

Grenade kit buffs

Tools traitline buffs

Scrapper traitline buffs

Explosives buffs

 

This is not the case that just grenades were buffed and overnight it is overpowered, this particular build is the result of numerous, completely unconnected buffs across the board.

Literally all 3 traitlines, the base weapon and the class skills as well as 2 additional kits were buffed which makes this particular build by far more powerful than if you did this a year ago for example

Edited March 27, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Most people playing PvP are below platinum. Scrapper isn’t fun to play against. It’s just spamming nades and running away with superspeed. No one wants to chase one down.

This is the crux of what's wrong with Gw2 PvP actually. 

Too many people want to be boosted and take wins no matter how annoying they have to be to do that, and the very small fraction of people that are actually fun to interact with are suspiciously absent from the content.

That being said...  I don't think scrapper is one of those cases.

Not saying   watching someone retreating while dumping every bomb in their inventory out of their pockets is fun, but the balancing direction for scrapper got players to commit to engagements while practically full melee with minimal stunbreaks.

I feel that build was more fun than a large swath of the builds that were occupying the meta beforehand, and focusing on the nade thing when the opener was what people were upset about is kind of kicking the deceased equine a bit. If a class is going to have limitations that dictate when and how it can interact with you, it needs to have some kind of mechanic for making that interaction happen, and needs to be rewarded for doing so. You want scrappers to play with that hammer? They need to have some way to get in close without being eviscerated by cc. 

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

It doesn't need to be in the top 100 to be overpowered, it can easily be said that any build that can kill an enemy in less than 5 seconds is overpowered because that is quite literally overpowered.

 

Nah.

 

Setting an arbitrary line for what you consider overpowered then saying a build meets that arbitrary definition says nothing. There are several situations in the game where a build is totally justified in killing you in less than five seconds. Interactions don't become more balanced the longer they go, it's the stuff that happens in the interaction and the ease of winning across multiple interactions that makes the build balanced or not.

 

You don't dodge/are out of buttons vs a burst build standing on you and you're both glass? Die. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

A player from the top 100 wonders why thousands of PvP players not in the top 100 are bad and "aren't honest about it". This is like something from PvE coming in, has Fractal God and clears all raid CMs and HTCM weekly and saying "why don't players in open-world know that 5k DPS is bad and it needs to be 50k?".

Edited March 27, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

 

1 hour ago, Eugchriss.2046 said:

Huge amount of people suddenly playing scrapper indirectly proves that scrapper is OP in some way. 

If people constantly equate a class being played frequently with it being OP regardless of it having very clear weaknesses that can lock it down, PvP is doomed. There will be no way for a class to exist in a way that is fun enough for people to consider playing it without people accusing it of being overpowered and not resting until it is so miserable to play that nobody runs it.

You should understand -why- scrapper is OP (or determine what, if anything, counters it). use brain cells to figure that out. If you just assume "I see it a lot, it op" you can literally never think anything is balanced if it works well enough that multiple people can run it. Your intent becomes to rob fun, not promote balance and counterplay. We are currently starved for builds in PvP that people actually want to use. Anything that works will be played in surges, ESPECIALLY if the build is on a class that hasn't seen meta presence for a long period of time.

Quote

A player from the top 100 wonders why thousands of PvP players not in the top 100 are bad and "aren't honest about it". This is like something from PvE coming in, has Fractal God and clears all raid CMs and HTCM weekly and saying "why don't players in open-world know that 5k DPS is bad and it needs to be 50k?"

Was OP's point difficult to understand for players that may not be top 100? He isn't speaking in tongues and nothing he said requires more than a cursory knowledge of traits to comprehend. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[shion.2084]

4 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Most people playing PvP are below platinum. Scrapper isn’t fun to play against. It’s just spamming nades and running away with superspeed. No one wants to chase one down.

You wonder if they've ever played against a good soul beast.... spams arrows, goes invisible.

[Arheundel.6451]

"Your intent becomes to rob fun not to promote balance"....that's like every MMO forum these days....do you really think that keyboard warriors know anything about balance or equal playing field?

[Stalima.5490]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

We are currently starved for builds in PvP that people actually want to use. Anything that works will be played in surges. 

That might be because 90% of the builds in the game get completely shut down by over damaging builds like scrapper or berserker or soulbeast etc etc on basically every class.

 

And then you have over sustaining builds which cause the over damaging builds to be played.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Something doesnt need to be meta defining to be dumb af to play against.

[stormemperor.3745]

You can't imagine how serious some people are in pvp, as if someone pointed a duck on their head and telling them to must win.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

31 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Something doesnt need to be meta defining to be dumb af to play against.

 

Not everything needs to be enjoyable to fight first, and fair second. It's PvP. You won't find pleasant fights unless the person you're fighting is working to that end, and you can't write a line of code that makes that scenario reality. 

 

Is it fair? If not, how can it be made fair? If so, that's all. The community has to do the rest.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Khalisto.5780]

I gotta give it to you cuz your first 2-3 posts I've got omega jebaited

 

Your troll posts are so well made

 

That's the perfect time to kitten off ppl with scrapper isn't good ya'll are bad, after both mat winning teams running with 2 scrappers each

 

it's just genius lmao

[AlPower.2476]

13 minutes ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

I gotta give it to you cuz your first 2-3 posts I've got omega jebaited

 

Your troll posts are so well made

 

That's the perfect time to kitten off ppl with scrapper isn't good ya'll are bad, after both mat winning teams running with 2 scrappers each

 

it's just genius lmao

The fact is that the build that won the MAT is so different from what actually Scrappers should be.

 

So, imagine you are playing a class that was easily downed for years, by Bladesworns, Spellbreakers, Untameds, Catalysts, even Holosmiths. After the nerfs, then one day, a build that is not even a Scrapper like gameplay become popular, Mettabattle's heads copy then and start to annoy in PvP. Then people like you think that the entire spec is broken and starts cry for nerf the entire spec, like thosw nerf superspeed calls, or hammer damage nerf calls. When the real problem is a single build.

 

So in summary, you are playing a weak spec, that requires lots of well done combos, evades, etc. For years, buttons smashers-class like are the kings of the meta ( including this new Scrapper glass cannon). Over the years, youre struggling, and then everyone asks for a nerf on the entire spec only for 1 dirty build that can be easily nerfed without touching the rest of builds. But anet only gonna nerf numbers on the entire spec... 

[jdawgie.1835]

PREACH MY BOY. ONE MORE TIME FOR THE DEVS IN THE BACK.

 

These forums want every profession except their profession to have nothing special or impactful in their kits, while somehow expecting people to stick around to provide them will dopamine for getting killed. 

The forums cant or will not comprehend that different professions are supposed to have things that outshine others. 

People argue on this forum from of a place of "My profession dosnt have what this profession has" therefore its unfair. Instead of thinking what does my profession have that this one doesn't that I can use to counter. Also failing to realize not every match up is meant to be favorable for all professions. Its wild actually. 

Edited March 28, 2023 by jdawgie.1835

[Ghos.1326]

12 hours ago, Eugchriss.2046 said:

TThere is a thing called indirect evidence. In the case of mmo, one of these indirect evidence would be the sudden rise of players playing a specific class, weapon, etc... 

To keep to short, you don't have to play every class to know which class is OP and which one isn't. Huge amount of people suddenly playing scrapper indirectly proves that scrapper is OP in some way. For the same reason that you don't need to play core engi to know that it's trash.

 

thems fightin words grrrrr >=( i'm making core engi great again

[Kstyle.5829]

17 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

As this seems to be about the scrapper, the OP doesn't seem to understand the full extent of what has actually happened:

 

Gyro buffs

Hammer buffs

Tool kit buffs

Grenade kit buffs

Tools traitline buffs

Scrapper traitline buffs

Explosives buffs

 

This is not the case that just grenades were buffed and overnight it is overpowered, this particular build is the result of numerous, completely unconnected buffs across the board.

Literally all 3 traitlines, the base weapon and the class skills as well as 2 additional kits were buffed which makes this particular build by far more powerful than if you did this a year ago for example

I read every single patch note over the last 2 years and none of those things happened.  Another clueless silver lord here folks.

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Kstyle.5829

[Kstyle.5829]

If you don't play every class in the game competitively then you have no right to speak on class balance.  It just blows my mind that people literally only play one class and lack the self awareness and critical thinking skills to realize that a class becoming popular due to meta battle doesn't mean it's strong.  How often does a class get buffed and suddenly become strong.  Pretty much never, it's just some noobs finally discovered a build that top players have played for a long time.  And most top players do not post their builds on meta battle for this very reason.  The only defense classes have against the nerf hammer is keeping them secret from the masses of horrible, clueless players that don't even know their own class abilities.    

1. Someone posts a new underplayed class build on meta battle

2. Noobs start playing this build and thus playing AGAINST it

3. Bad players don't know how to fight against it because nobody played this class prior

4. Bad players lose duels (which don't matter at all) and cry on forums.

5. Class gets nerffed

Note that nobody ever complains about anything other than someone killing them.  It's not a classes mobility allowing them to decap and win games.  It's not a bunkers ability to hold the point.  It's just the classes that killed you in a kittening duel.  That's what makes people cry and gets the nerf bat swung.  Horrible silver ranked players looking straight down at their keyboard pressing buttons and then crying when they die.  

Edited March 28, 2023 by Kstyle.5829

[SlateSloan.3654]

I think the main problem causing the forum complains is that the game has become too fast over the years so the average player cant keep up with and enjoy it.

you need lot of training and studies by now to keep track about up to date builds, animations, train your own combos, etc. That given after every „balance update“ the number of „class xy is op“ outcry seems to increase cause the average player doesnt understand what is written in update notes to just be refreshed on game education after reading it.

leading to wild punching around, fast giving up, afk at spawn, griefing on each others.

back in the days pvp flaming was actually a verbal fight between two enemies, todays they hard spitting acid within their own teams trying to find the guilt for the loss etc.

yes, game has become too fast for the average.

not only pvp but also wvw. Losing 2-3 fights in a row and the enemy commander logs out.

they cant catch up anymore with the „elite“ as the gap has become way too big.

Edited March 28, 2023 by SlateSloan.3654

[Myror.7521]

@Kstyle.5829 I mean yes but no. Yes some Players seem to think Like: "I can't handle it so it must See nerfed." The clue is some builds are countered by other Builds. The only path where a build becomes too strong is (as you See now with cata and granade scrap) when a class could "oneshot" you (delete ya in Seconds) and you can do nothing against it cause that class could running away and hard DPS ya from range for free Or on other Side when a class is tanky (Not ezy killable) and also could "oneshot" you (that was Spellbraker)

[eXruina.4956]

isn't it a prevalent human behavior in coping with failure, denial, then self justification.

 

i dunno, i feel the topic is too personal and too judgemental to touch on.

 

i don't see a problem with them airing their opinions, accurate or not, but depending on the platform they open themselves up for scrutiny and judgement.

 

its more commonplace to get torn apart by the wolves than receiving empathy and help from other sheep.

Edited March 28, 2023 by eXruina.4956