About encounter design 🙄

[Rauderi.8706]

tldr - Can we just stop with the insta-cast knockback/CC obsession already?  

Just something that's cropped up in the latest zone / story. Again. And it's just so, so tiresome.  

Gunners with no-tell knockbacks every <10 seconds, that midboss in Deep Trouble with a no-tell knockback every 5 seconds. If you don't want your players to play, just tell us. 

And spare me the "just dodge" nonsense, because the attacks are instacast, or the "use Stability", which is a joke because it doesn't last long enough nor has enough uptime to deal with the constant, constant CC abuse. It's a complaint that comes up very often, and yet the devs still aren't checking or designing for this. 

[Khisanth.2948]

They've been relying on that crutch for a pretty long time but I guess it has gotten worse. On the other hand it sounds like they didn't make it ignore stability this time? That could count as an improvement!

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

4 hours ago, Rauderi.8706 said:

Can we just stop with the insta-cast knockback/CC obsession already?  

yeah, it gets pretty kittening boring after a while, like in, why I'm even bother playing this?

[Einsof.1457]

8 hours ago, Rauderi.8706 said:

tldr - Can we just stop with the insta-cast knockback/CC obsession already?  

Just something that's cropped up in the latest zone / story. Again. And it's just so, so tiresome.  

Gunners with no-tell knockbacks every <10 seconds, that midboss in Deep Trouble with a no-tell knockback every 5 seconds. If you don't want your players to play, just tell us. 

And spare me the "just dodge" nonsense, because the attacks are instacast, or the "use Stability", which is a joke because it doesn't last long enough nor has enough uptime to deal with the constant, constant CC abuse. It's a complaint that comes up very often, and yet the devs still aren't checking or designing for this. 

Just put a stability utility on or dodge or distortion or interupt or the myriad other ways of countering enemy imobilizations in this game.. This is a part of the game design. You see a problem and you go through your tool box to counter the problem. Sorry you are playing a video game, not an AFK mobile game. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[Cyninja.2954]

Yes, please give us more strait forward tank and spank content, because that is the most fun way of interacting with a scripted  (and thus 100% predictable) AI. /s

[Einsof.1457]

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, please give us more strait forward tank and spank content, because that is the most fun way of interacting with a scripted  (and thus 100% predictable) AI. /s

Exactly. I just want to stand still and auto attack just like mmos of 23 years ago. 

[vares.8457]

So you want even more boring encounters without any mechanics where you just have to stand still and auto attack? No thanks. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by vares.8457

[Khisanth.2948]

7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, please give us more strait forward tank and spank content, because that is the most fun way of interacting with a scripted  (and thus 100% predictable) AI. /s

Neither is CC spam. I haven't bothered doing this story yet but the fight sounds a lot like the fight with Iberu in Istan for the Palawadan meta.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I must have been sleeping through this episode because I don't remember feeling like I was a ping pong ball.

[Ashen.2907]

I didnt have any problems with this one. I would like to see a reduction in visual noise so that timing dodges, stability, blocks, and interrupts was less often a shot in the (not at all) dark.

[Cyninja.2954]

32 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I didnt have any problems with this one. I would like to see a reduction in visual noise so that timing dodges, stability, blocks, and interrupts was less often a shot in the (not at all) dark.

 

Now this is a suggestion one can get behind. It's been asked for for years and it would go a long way in allowing players to get better feedback and tells from enemies without relying to much on memorization and guessing.

[Astralporing.1957]

12 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, please give us more strait forward tank and spank content, because that is the most fun way of interacting with a scripted  (and thus 100% predictable) AI. /s

Fun fact - what you describe is how raids work. So, if it's fine for the top tier endgame content, why would it suddenly become a problem for a supposedly much less demanding ones?

[Cyninja.2954]

47 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Fun fact - what you describe is how raids work. So, if it's fine for the top tier endgame content, why would it suddenly become a problem for a supposedly much less demanding ones?

 

True, and the fights where you strait up tank and spank without any mechanics (Gorseval, Cairn, MO, etc.) are also widly considere the easiest and most  boring encounters with least potential to actually learn and improve.

 

Now raid fights, even these mundane ones, draw their entertainment from playing with others, coordinating and for some from the loot (LI for legendary armor).

 

Open world content has none of those benefits while being even easier. 

 

Why not just remove enemies overall and just place chests somewhere which players can loot. Oh wait, that's literally how most metas end already...

Edited April 3, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Tashigi.3159]

Have to agree with this, those mobs in the lastest zone are just plain annoying, I can understand 1 CC every minute or so, but CC every 10 seconds? Even worse, pushbacks? Extremely annoying.

[Astralporing.1957]

34 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Why not just remove enemies overall and just place chests somewhere which players can loot. Oh wait, that's literally how most metas end already...

It's funny how any arguments against the complains being brought here always devolve to trying to present it as if fixing one annoying feature is the same as wanting to remove all mechanics. It's almost as if extreme overexagerrations and advanced strawmanning are the only "counterarguments" that people can think of.

[Cyninja.2954]

6 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's funny how any arguments against the complains being brought here always devolve to trying to present it as if fixing one annoying feature is the same as wanting to remove all mechanics. It's almost as if extreme overexagerrations and advanced strawmanning are the only "counterarguments" that people can think of.

You mean unlike your oversimplified view of raids equating boss mechanics, even easier ones, with open world mobs?

[Sigmoid.7082]

41 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's funny how any arguments against the complains being brought here always devolve to trying to present it as if fixing one annoying feature is the same as wanting to remove all mechanics. It's almost as if extreme overexagerrations and advanced strawmanning are the only "counterarguments" that people can think of.

I suppose the point is to demonstrate that there is always going to be a bar and no matter what Anet do, especially as long as the game has mechanics of any sort. Someone is always going to be below it unless they completely remove the bar all together at which point you get what the poster you quoted insinuated. 

 

I'm all for fixing annoying things but is it worth doing if it's 1/10 people? Or the fix improves the one but then makes 3/10 upset with those changes? List goes on. 

 

There is an inflection point that some people do not like to accept: there is a certain point that the problem is not the game, it's you. 

 

It's also difficult to feel sympathy when the stance taken is often "don't tell me to get better or switch tact, change the game!"

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's funny how any arguments against the complains being brought here always devolve to trying to present it as if fixing one annoying feature is the same as wanting to remove all mechanics. It's almost as if extreme overexagerrations and advanced strawmanning are the only "counterarguments" that people can think of.

This is not a problem that needs fixing.  There's your counter-argument.  I expect this argument will be met with repetition of the initial complaint as if it were self-evident that this is something that must be addressed.

 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

2 hours ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

I suppose the point is to demonstrate that there is always going to be a bar and no matter what Anet do, especially as long as the game has mechanics of any sort. Someone is always going to be below it unless they completely remove the bar all together at which point you get what the poster you quoted insinuated. 

 

I'm all for fixing annoying things but is it worth doing if it's 1/10 people? Or the fix improves the one but then makes 3/10 upset with those changes? List goes on. 

 

There is an inflection point that some people do not like to accept: there is a certain point that the problem is not the game, it's you. 

 

It's also difficult to feel sympathy when the stance taken is often "don't tell me to get better or switch tact, change the game!"

The bar problem is easily solved in many other games with something called difficulty levels. This allows less experienced players to still enjoy the content in exchange for less rewards.

 

Unfortunately, this game and difficulty modes is a tough relationship. They exist in a few places, and work really well when they're implemented, but in other places the developers don't even bother in the slightest and try to make "one size fits all" difficulty where a veteran demolishes a boss in 15sec and a newbie clonks on it for half an hour then comes to the forums to say it was too hard and should be nerfed.

 

If the powercreep wasn't so bad, it would be less noticeable, but you can't create a universal middleground when the gap between players is like a canyon, even in story mode.

Edited April 4, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Astralporing.1957]

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You mean unlike your oversimplified view of raids equating boss mechanics, even easier ones, with open world mobs?

Well, you were the one that first equated CC spam (especially unavoidable cc spam, which is this thread primarily about) to all mechanics, so...

I mean, do you really, honestly think that this kind of mechanic is necessary to build decent OW encounters?

Edited April 4, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, you were the one that first equated CC spam to all mechanics, so...

 

True, and if open world enemies (and story) did any more than strait forward damage or cc skills of little variety, we might have some mechanics to discuss, Alas most (nearly all) do not. 🤷‍♂️

[Astralporing.1957]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

True, and if open world enemies (and story) did any more than strait forward damage or cc skills of little variety, we might have some mechanics to discuss, Alas most (nearly all) do not. 🤷‍♂️

Well, here you have it. Not to mention the cc spam of the kind OP is talking about is something that will be pretty much ignored anyway, which turns it from an interesting mechanic (which it never was, tbh) into a mere annoyance that is designed purely to diminish enjoyment of the encounter.

There's a reason why unavoidable/instant/mass CC is never used in raid encounters, and CC in general are used only rarely (and ever only with massive telegraphing and/or on an extremely predictable patterns). It's because it's not fun for anyone.

Hint: it's not any different for OW players.

[Cyninja.2954]

18 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, here you have it. Not to mention the cc spam of the kind OP is talking about is something that will be pretty much ignored anyway, which turns it from an interesting mechanic (which it never was, tbh) into a mere annoyance that is designed purely to diminish enjoyment of the encounter.

That's the view of someone who does not change their build depending on where they go in open world content (and fair enough, this is likely the vast majority of the player base, which doesn't mean this is the right approach. What happened to preparing players for more challenging content?). For those of us who do change their build, even by only swapping out 1-2 utility skills occasionally, it provides some distraction of the mundane "press W and 1 and win".

There are VERY rare situations where there is so many stacks of cc that a single stability skill paired with a dodge won't solve the problem (and most stab skills are stun breaks by now too, otherwise bring one of those s 2nd skill if needed).

I agree though, this comes down to a difference in desire of content. Some want it as brain-dead and straightforward as possible, others do not. On that note, I'm pretty sure that any other form of simplistic mechanics, which do not see wide use in open world encounters or mob design, would face the same scrutiny. Say enemies that drop, reflects, or dodge or apply boons, or corrupt boons, etc. Every single one of those would lead to an outcry of the masses of players who do not want to deal with them because "I want shiny faster, mechanics not fun" is the go to mo here.

18 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

There's a reason why unavoidable/instant/mass CC is never used in raid encounters, and CC in general are used only rarely (and ever only with massive telegraphing and/or on an extremely predictable patterns). It's because it's not fun for anyone.

 

True, it is being used in a predictable pattern in raids because eventually every mechanic and skill is found out. What you are equating though is players who know the skills they face in raids with players who do not know the skills they face in open world content. I guarantee you, those raid groups that have not figured out the skills they face fare the same way as do open world players who do not know the skills they face (or decide to adapt to).

 

18 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Hint: it's not any different for OW players.

 

and if we had the same spectrum of skills to deal with in open world content, I'd be inclined to agree.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Cyninja.2954]

9 hours ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

I suppose the point is to demonstrate that there is always going to be a bar and no matter what Anet do, especially as long as the game has mechanics of any sort. Someone is always going to be below it unless they completely remove the bar all together at which point you get what the poster you quoted insinuated. 

 

I'm all for fixing annoying things but is it worth doing if it's 1/10 people? Or the fix improves the one but then makes 3/10 upset with those changes? List goes on. 

 

There is an inflection point that some people do not like to accept: there is a certain point that the problem is not the game, it's you. 

 

It's also difficult to feel sympathy when the stance taken is often "don't tell me to get better or switch tact, change the game!"

 

Well put.

[Raknar.4735]

14 hours ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

I'm all for fixing annoying things but is it worth doing if it's 1/10 people? Or the fix improves the one but then makes 3/10 upset with those changes? List goes on. 

Well put. That's exactly why we don't get more raid encounters, as it's not worth doing if it's 1/10 people.