ANet wants celestial gear to do what it currently does because they directly profit from it being strong.

[Chaba.5410]

36 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

It doesn't matter what skills and builds i pick.

Why we don't find much use of Celestial outside of WvW Roaming?  Those builds pick specific skills that aren't always used in other game modes.

Roaming isn't unlike what is found in sPvP where ArenaNet has had more flexibility in adding, changing, and removing stat combos to affect balance than in PvE/WvW.  What's been done in sPvP is an example of balance being dependent upon both the stats and the skills utilized.

It reminds me of whenever a balance change is released and sometimes players find an old skill or trait that suddenly becomes rather OP where previously it was not used at all.  It's the context.  Very difficult to isolate balance to any one particular thing.
 

36 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Also nobody ever said cele is the superior gear for each and every build.

You haven't, but that's not what I got out of this thread's earlier posts.  One guy wants it nerfed for all game modes, which would imply he's thinking it's the superior gear.  Discussion was had about the stat in the Lvl 80 boost and how it was intended to give the new player that OP experience that sells the game.  This feature supposedly spills over into WvW (while roaming is kind of a niche mode within WvW).  But I digress.  This is not your argument.

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Zyreva.1078]

53 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Why we don't find much use of Celestial outside of WvW Roaming?  Those builds pick specific skills that aren't always used in other game modes.

Cele isn't much used for zerging, because individual performance matters less and also because sheer numbers and op support - aoe cleansing in particular - decreases the value of certain stats. Like it doesn't matter how much defensive stats you have if you get caught alone in an enemy bomb - you are dead either way. Kills in zerg fighst are pretty much always "oneshots" enabled by numbers of players. Sustained dmg amd condis are less relevant, because everything but a "bomb" gets outhealed and outcleansed easily. It also doesn't matter much how much defense you have if support, aoe caps and op rezzing keeps even glass builds alive.

53 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

One guy wants it nerfed for all game modes, which would imply he's thinking it's the superior gear.  Discussion was had about the stat in the Lvl 80 boost and how it was intended to give the new player that OP experience that sells the game.  This feature supposedly spills over into WvW (while roaming is kind of a niche mode within WvW).  But I digress.  This is not your argument.

Cele is kinda op in PvE too. Go to for pretty much any "solo" build and also works perfectly fine for any grp content. Players just tend to value a few percent more dmg over increased - but optional - safety and it can mess with tanking mechanics, that's why you see more glass builds. But the combination of dmg + survivability is just as much out of whack as in WvW.

And in sPvP we never had anything like the current version of cele, but i can assure you, if it were aviable there it would be played by each and every relevant build (even old cele was pretty problematic and that was a much weaker version than what we have now).

Edited April 15, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

19 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Or maybe there's more to the game than just WvW?  They probably didn't want new players boosting to 80 and getting wrecked in open world/story content because the game gives them crappy soldier stats.  With celestial you're going to survive better and deal more damage, especially if you're using the kind of borked builds new players usually come up with.

....I know, that's why I said it was a good thing. I'm beginning to think people just read half my post and react to what they think I was saying lol. 

[Chaba.5410]

43 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Cele is kinda op in PvE too.

I don't see that on Metabattle.  There's only one class with cele build in PvE and it's Firebrand.  Compare with how many cele builds exist for WvW Roaming.  If you're talking about the GuildJen builds, aren't those just Vallun's recommendations?

Snowcrows doesn't have any for Raids, then again that's group content.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

  

9 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Oof.  Any hope of a rational discussion on cele stats left this thread the moment the cynics entered.  Oh wait, that was in the very first post.

Clearly you didn't read my first post considering I didn't actually give my opinion on cele stats. I said that cele is strong, that ANet clearly wants it to be strong for new players who use a Lv80 boost, and the fact that ANet directly profit from this means it's unlikely to change, so given that's the case people would be better off getting used to cele gear as it is now. Anything else is an inference on your part.

[Chaba.5410]

16 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

  

Clearly you didn't read my first post considering I didn't actually give my opinion on cele stats. I said that cele is strong, that ANet clearly wants it to be strong for new players who use a Lv80 boost, and the fact that ANet directly profit from this means it's unlikely to change, so given that's the case people would be better off getting used to cele gear as it is now. Anything else is an inference on your part.

Yes, that's totally a big source of their profit.  Was completely intentional.  /sarcasm

[TheGrimm.5624]

21 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Instead of repeating the same random nonsense over and over again, how about you explain how a stat disparity of almost 75% is somehow balanced?

Edit: Build sites like guildjen or metabattle are not indicative of what's meta or not. Just a bunch of random builds that differ greatly in effectiveness. All of those power builds expect maybe DE (because SA) get farmed hard by most cele builds.

Oh sorry are you still just playing one build without trying all the others? Why are you wasting stats on builds that can't use them. Maybe try playing more builds so you can get a better picture and stop trying to witch hunt? Roam more maybe and zerg less? Boon spam is more the issue. So again as you avoided before how many builds are you running and how many of each type? Said before currently finding 10-15% that Hybrid work on when roaming, so you are running how many roaming builds that use it 100% of time and how many use it? Plus you still haven't shared your ANet source that shows what all players are using it or what third party, mind doing so? 

[TheGrimm.5624]

21 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Instead of repeating the same random nonsense over and over again, how about you explain how a stat disparity of almost 75% is somehow balanced?

 

lol, 75% times zero is what? 0. So want to try that again? The difference here is you want to blame gear issues in skill balance, it's not the same thing. Focus on the skill balance and might be a different issue., same with boons versus corruptions.

[TheGrimm.5624]

So for all the witch hunters here, how many different toons are you running and how many are Cele? For toons I am around 10-15% Cele?. Are all the nerfs peeps running 100% cele? 

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

So for all the witch hunters here, how many different toons are you running and how many are Cele? For toons I am around 10-15% Cele?. Are all the nerfs peeps running 100% cele? 

I played cele once, fought a cele cata for 5 min and then sat to die. Switched to zerk and never bothered again.

You should be asking, how many builds you fought are cele. I'd say 50/50 for me. More than enough to move to conquest and not bother with wvw again. There players with no hands die like they are supposed to.

[Cuks.8241]

On 4/15/2023 at 11:16 AM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I think that people that complain about celestial stats are the ones that run it themselves, but simply lost in fights against other cele builds and now they qq.
There's a lot of builds that are simply too strong and need very niche counter to kill them. Celestial isn't that great in long run, it still can get 1tapped by some random Gunflame from 1.5k range or some Grenade scrapper from stealth or other gibberish.
It is strong on some classes and mediocre on everything else. Nerf boons to make them "short-lived-boosts" as they should be and suddenly it's meme at most, but we all know you won't nerf boons.

Celestial doesn't get 1 tapped. Lets look at my celestial roamers baseline (no boons, no food): harb 28k hp (and if I run blood you can easily add some barrier to it to put me over 30k), druid/slb 26 k hp, even catalyst 20k+ hp (before elemental empowerment). Around 1600 toughness. Now add healing power, boon support level od boon uptime.

And these are not some low dmg minstrel like builds that you can just walk away. I think I benched my druid at 10k+ dps self buffed (without food or utility) without actually trying to optimize my rotation at all and I never play my ranger in pve so I don't really have much clue. Again self buffed only. Yeah pve, different stats but still.  

Yeah not all classes work and some would warrant some nerfs (hello harbinger) but if a class have access to a decent hybrid weapon it will work great with celestial 

 

[Zyreva.1078]

5 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

lol, 75% times zero is what? 0. So want to try that again?

Are you playing naked chars?

Edited April 16, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Chaba.5410]

4 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

There players with no hands die like they are supposed to.

Bots?

[TheGrimm.5624]

8 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I played cele once, fought a cele cata for 5 min and then sat to die. Switched to zerk and never bothered again.

You should be asking, how many builds you fought are cele. I'd say 50/50 for me. More than enough to move to conquest and not bother with wvw again. There players with no hands die like they are supposed to.

First off I can't see what the enemy roamer is running. But per the feel of the fight I see a mix. The pure power will engage and then leave quick if their rotation failed. The dodge/evade groups will take a number of rotations to see if they can wear you down, these are both power and condi builds but not sustain or Cele. The pure condi stay a while since they need to see what clears are in place. The tanks/sustain/Cele stick the longest outside of Eles.  Eles are Eles and whether power/condi/sustain/cele are usually all in.

[TheGrimm.5624]

4 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Are you playing naked chars?

75% more stats that give you nothing is nothing. A power build that has no conditions in it attacks means you wasted stats. A condi build that has no real strike damage means you wasted stats. Again if you aren't running more than one class its not a BiS spot everywhere. Are you just running in zergs? If so this is the issue with the boon uptime issue that people are complaining about. Maybe we should address the actual issue first? Boons/versus removal/corruptions. Stop giving them reasons to not address the underling issue.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

On 4/16/2023 at 2:50 AM, Chaba.5410 said:

Yes, that's totally a big source of their profit.  Was completely intentional.  /sarcasm

You could say the same thing about server transfers in WvW. They're still here 10 years later, despite the negative effect they have on server population due to players overstacking servers. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that ANet benefits from gems sales. Hmm. 

The buff to celestial gear was intentional. So was the change to the starter gear for Lv80 boosts. You can show as much from the patch notes I quoted. The fact that you can only get Lv80 boosts from the gem store or from buying an expac means that ANet profits from this change. This game is a money making venture and WvW is not the target audience of the celestial gear changes, so expecting ANet to change celestial gear for WvW is more than a little optimistic, to put it nicely.

[Dawdler.8521]

10 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

75% more stats that give you nothing is nothing. A power build that has no conditions in it attacks means you wasted stats. A condi build that has no real strike damage means you wasted stats.

I'm sure Anet designing expansion class weapons and skills to do everything at once unlike core having a heavy power/condi split is completely unrelated to how strong the set is.

[TheGrimm.5624]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I'm sure Anet designing expansion class weapons and skills to do everything at once unlike core having a heavy power/condi split is completely unrelated to how strong the set is.

That's one take and not wrong in direction. Another is they looked and saw that there was a place for hybrids since they first introduced one in core in the form of Ele and have been expanding from there adding more trying to make sure all classes have power, condi, hybrid DPS, Support, and heal options. 

Edit: As I said I run with a lot of toons because, whatever, lets go with alt-o-holic or ADHD if need be so I like to mix things up each time. I don't find Cele BiS everywhere, do you? They are good on hybrid, but on my Power/Condi/Support/Heal/Evade builds, they aren't the BiS. And even on the Hybrid builds they can still be beaten by pure builds and out lasted by serious tanky builds. So they are jack of all trades and masters of none as I have seen on roaming. Sorry again, sPvP failed when they removed amulet options, don't want that for WvW. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by TheGrimm.5624
Further ramblings

[Polar.8634]

On 4/15/2023 at 6:47 PM, Chaba.5410 said:

Explain it to me like I'm a 5 year

more stats translates to effortless advantage.

more power stat = more damage.

more condi damage stat = more damage.

more toughness = more damage reduction.

and so on. 

because you have more, it is easier for you to win over someone not using celestial.

leading to limited choices in stat combos overall. 

Want to win? = take celestial, as it has more stats.

 

Simple enough?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Cele may be more stats overall, but it is mediocre stats in each category. The problem isn't the stat combo, it is the way certain especs, and in some cases entire professions, are balanced. Even then, having a more tailored build or just better overall skill level will result in you winning against a cele fotm build. I was fighting them just fine with a Berserker stat Berserker running Axe/Axe + Rifle with Eternal Champion and Defy/Endure Pain.

[Chaba.5410]

 

51 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

more stats translates to effortless advantage.

more power stat = more damage.

more condi damage stat = more damage.

more toughness = more damage reduction.

and so on. 

because you have more, it is easier for you to win over someone not using celestial.

leading to limited choices in stat combos overall. 

Want to win? = take celestial, as it has more stats.

 

Simple enough?

You pulling my leg?  I log into the game and see this:

Ascended Chest Berserker: Power = 141
Ascended Chest Celestial: Power = 67

Ascended Chest Viper: Condi = 121
Ascended Chest Celestial: Condi = 67

Ascended Chest Viper: Condi+Power = 242
Ascended Chest Celestial: Condi+Power = 134

What the heck do I need condi for if my build is power-based?

Explain.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Polar.8634]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Explain.

you dont compare power stat on berserker and cele. you compare all stats . because in wvw unlike pvp all stats matter not only damage ones.

[Chaba.5410]

8 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

you dont compare power stat on berserker and cele. you compare all stats . because in wvw unlike pvp all stats matter not only damage ones.

Now you're saying it isn't "more power = more damage"?

Why would I need all stats?  I don't need all stats even in WvW.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

48 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

you dont compare power stat on berserker and cele. you compare all stats . because in wvw unlike pvp all stats matter not only damage ones.

Just because you have more stats, doesn't mean they're worth anything. Some classes can utilize that set to some degree and become "powerful", but on the other hand there are classes to which some stats from Celestial are simply dead on arrival because of how they scale with their kits. Then you have to add trait lines, weapons and utility skills which will impact effectivness of that set by a lot. If you pick one without any boon generation then your concentration becomes just a decoration, same goes for other stats.
Celestial is blank paper in long run.

[Polar.8634]

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Just because you have more stats, doesn't mean they're worth anything. Some classes can utilize that set to some degree and become "powerful", but on the other hand there are classes to which some stats from Celestial are simply dead on arrival because of how they scale with their kits. Then you have to add trait lines, weapons and utility skills which will impact effectivness of that set by a lot. If you pick one without any boon generation then your concentration becomes just a decoration, same goes for other stats.
Celestial is blank paper in long run.

if you go wvw and look around you will see that most classes do utilize celestial stats pretty well. in fact, you already know that