Stories Locked Behind Raids [Merged]

[Edu.6984]

Best way to make ot good for everyone is to create "story mode" with no enrage timer, half dmg and hp, but offering little reward.

That way any pug group can play the story/lore and the serious groups still have their more challenging mode.

[Astralporing.1957]

@maddoctor.2738 said:The developers went to great length to not make the Raid story an integral part of the overall story.And in this they failed. Badly. Most likely because they completely misunderstood the problem.

@maddoctor.2738 said:If you play the episodes without ever touching the Raid, you don't miss anything so there is hardly any problem.That's not really true. You do miss part of the important storyline. Whether it was one that had a direct impact on the main storyline or not (and Forsaken thicked had such an impact)

@maddoctor.2738 said:There is zero reason to believe that they won't do the same with the next Wing. After all Raids are side storiesThat would be... bad. The "side stories" so far were not minor ones.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Raids can have characters from the lore of both games just fine, I expect the next Raid to also touch on major lore characters. This as long as it doesn't affect the main story of the game, finishing Saul D'Alessio's story in such an epic way was one step towards a good direction.And that is whay you (and Anet) do not seem to understand. Any stories tied to major lore characters should not be closed to a vast majority of players. Whether those stories have any direct tie-in to the main story or not. Because these are things with major impact on game lore.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Actually that's what really matters and there are already rumors about the next Raid also dealing heavily with GW1 lore. These are stories that deserve a good ending worthy of their importance and not a semi-afkable solo instance.

Exactly. Those stories deserve to not be restricted to the minority of players only. They are too big and important for that.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Finishing old story threads in Raids, when they do not affect the main story, is the best way to finish them. In an epic and memorable way, not the way we finished Lazarus or Balthazar.Quite the opposite. It's the worst way, because most players won't see it. Even if i do agree with you on how badly the Lazarus storyline was done (this however i consider to be a problem with storywriting, not game mechanics)

@Malediktus.9250 said:A raid without a story would feel out of place. What motivation does the player character have to go into a raid without a story behind it? Why would he risk his life?Does that story need to involve major points of GW lore to qualify for raids? Can't it be something on the level of explorable dungeon paths (with the notable exception of Arah)? AC explorable paths did not touch on any major lore point, major character or event. And yet they still gave you a reason to go in.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:That's not really true. You do miss part of the important storyline. Whether it was one that had a direct impact on the main storyline or not (and Forsaken thicked had such an impact)

No it didn't have such an impact.

That would be... bad. The "side stories" so far were not minor ones.

The side stories were exactly that: side stories.

Does that story need to involve major points of GW lore to qualify for raids?

That's the best kind of story for the Raids.

[Zok.4956]

I do have killed a few raid bosses (not all) and can agree that story should not be locked behind raids.

But there is actually not really much lore/story told in raids. The lore/story is only setting the theme/stage for the fights/encounters and is mostly some dialogue with some NPCs, which can also be seen when someone goes (with LFG) in an already finished raid map and will probably be disappointed and think after that "what? so much fuss about that? thats it?"

But it is a different issue, to make the fights itself easier for people that do want to encounter the fights, in some "easy-mode" by themselves. I think the fights would be different and be also disappointing and will not feel this "big" if they can be facetanked on first try. I am not generally against "easy-mode" raids, but I think that this could devalue the fights and a lot of mechanics that are fun and important for the fights.

Raids are not special because they have the best maps or tell the best story (if they tell story at all) but because they are the most challenging content in this game where (normally) 10 skilled players have to cooperate and coordinate to kill a boss. And of course you can get good loot in raids.

Raids are fights, not story.

[Cynn.1659]

Easy mode is a waste of dev time, it's that simple. People will do it once, then come back to the forum to cry that they can't have the same rewards as other people.

[Astralporing.1957]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

That would be... bad. The "side stories" so far were not minor ones.

The side stories were exactly that: side stories.You didn't deny what i said, i see. They might have been side stories in relation to the main storyline, but they weren't unimportant or minor ones at all. And the events from Forsaken Thicket actually

started

the whole chain of LS3+PoF.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

Does that story need to involve major points of GW lore to qualify for raids?

That's the best kind of story for the Raids.From the raiders' point of view, perhaps (although many raiders i met didn't even know what was happening in the raid instances they were farming. Nor did they care). From the point of view of everyone else's it's the

worst

choice. Because, by doing that, you deny that part of the story to a majority of the players. Which is okay if those are minor stories, but definitely not okay with the ones you yourself said are important enough to deserve a good and epic ending. Epic ending most people won't see is not epic.

And no, contrary to what devs and some raiders seem to claim, infodumps and YT vids are not a good replacement. If they were, lore inside the game would be completely superfuous - all you'd need is to post some story videos and blogs to keep players happy. And if you thought they were a good replacement, then you'd also not care about those stories being in raids. Reading about them/seeing cinematic from LS would do for you.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:You didn't deny what i said, i see. They might have been side stories in relation to the main storyline, but they weren't unimportant or minor ones at all. And the events from Forsaken Thicket actually started the whole chain of LS3+PoF.

I never said anything about their story being irrelevant. The raids had good part in the lore, as they should, but in no way be part of the main story of the actual game. That's why they are called side stories. Also, what happened in LS3+PoF would've happened anyway, regardless of the existence on not of the Forsaken Thicket.

Which is okay if those are minor stories, but definitely not okay with the ones you yourself said are important enough to deserve a good and epic ending.

They are minor stories relative to the main story of the game, as in they do not affect it, not minor as minor points in the lore.

[Lunateric.3708]

@Blaeys.3102 said:In the past 8-10 posts, we've seen the same people shift their argument from "these stories are unimportant, so non-raiders shouldn't care" to "these stories are so important that they deserve special treatment." That alone shows us that the argument is less about the story and more about people wanting to keep those dirty casuals out of every part of their corner of the playground. And that is the definition of elitist, imo.

it's almost as if different people have different opinions. I don't mind your personal crusade towards raids to be honest but content devoid of challenge and/or substance is content that players quickly forget. I like they stick to their design philosophy for raids and I like it even more when they state that's what they want. People like you will not like that and complain about it, others will enjoy it and both are fine approaches at least for me. You're not white noise, your opinion will be shared by other people for sure but if you choose to not raid for whatever reason you may have, stick to your guns and don't try to warp everything so it fits your agenda.

[Sykper.6583]

This is Guild Wars 2.

The main lore is our character's continued quest to find a way to defeat the Elder Dragons and save the world (both, not just the former).

Stopping White Mantle Activities in Northern Magumma outside of Bloodstone Fen or Saving Saul are not part of this main story.

Regardless of how important you feel this lore is to Guild Wars as a whole, it is irrelevant to the main audience who is currently concerned about Aurene going through her Teenage years. There is no need to insist that there is a relevance and thus raids need to be more accessible, they are accessible enough to those willing to put in the time and patience.

[Rennie.6750]

I think people have been requesting different tiers of raids (like the fractal ones) for various reasons since raids are a thing, and the devs don't care. But don't worry! They have a top notch policy to sort out raid related feedback!

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Sinfullysweet.4517 said::s :s The only issue I have with Raids is one thing. Don't lock part of the story behind it. :s :s Rewards yes by all means, but the story is the core content. Maybe add a story mode, with no rewards for those of us that really want to get the full story. Those of us who mentally can't do raids (mine is over stimulation, cant use voip) this would help us not feel like we are missing a core part of the story. Leave Raids as they are challenging content for those who like to push the ceiling, but a story path with no rewards but gives us casuals a way to complete the story and understand.

You are absolutely correct. Raid audience doesn't care about lore. To be honest raids should just be boss platforms with mechanics. That way we can enjoy the lore without the need to deal with raid community and anet will be able to release faster raids. No textures, no voiceovers, just platforms, bosses and mechanics. Raiders will stop complaining too as they will receive new raids faster. I hope Anet listens :)

[Vinceman.4572]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:That way we can enjoy the lore...

I doubt that people interested in the lore would be satisfied to get specific lore presented like it is in raids. You would be forced to talk to an NPC and just read the stuff + pick up letters from the ground. That's it. Oh I forgot, there would be an extra movie scene of about 10s without much value.It's highly debatable that the real lore hunters appreciate such procedure because they won't get it in a different style.In my opinion this whole thing about lore is a dummy argument because lore focussed, addicted and mesmerized people have either already visited the empty instances to "enjoy" the story or raid(ed) themselves due to being longterm veterans.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:That way we can enjoy the lore...

I doubt that people interested in the lore would be satisfied to get specific lore presented like it is in raids. You would be forced to talk to an NPC and just read the stuff + pick up letters from the ground. That's it. Oh I forgot, there would be an extra movie scene of about 10s without much value.It's highly debatable that the real lore hunters appreciate such procedure because they won't get it in a different style.In my opinion this whole thing about lore is a dummy argument because lore focussed, addicted and mesmerized people have either already visited the empty instances to "enjoy" the story or raid(ed) themselves due to being longterm veterans.

Very old argument that was never true :)

[Vinceman.4572]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:Very old argument that was never true :)

Then enlighten us. What is not true about it? :)

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:Very old argument that was never true :)

Then enlighten us. What is not true about it? :)

There were enouogh enlightments since raid content has been released in this game and you still don't get it. I can't help you at this point :)

[Vinceman.4572]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:There were enouogh enlightments since raid content has been released in this game and you still don't get it. I can't help you at this point :)

1. I mentioned different things in my post and you just replied with one argument that has never been true. Nobody who is reading in this thread now knows what you have meant.

2. Is it about the lore not being presented by letters and the NPC talking? Because here I'm 100% right, no need to discuss that.Or is it about the lore being presented to the casual crowd if it weren't in raids? As I said, highy debatable because there is no indication that Anet has ever had plans to construct a side story out of dungeons, fractals, raids and festivals. In the past it has always been a straight going forward LS in the open world or story in instances like dungeons, raids and fractals. They even did it in Aether path.Or is it about lore hunters being satisfied if they are going to an NPC, for example Queensdale, and read the lore there + picking up some letters? Very doubtful that we wouldn't have a skritpost here or on Reddit accusing Anet to be uncreative etc.Or do you mean the last sentence of my post? Because I doubt that a player that is obsessed by the lore has refused to go into a cleared instance because reasons (must be weird reasons). Those people want to know stuff, there is no rational reason to not go into the instance if you really want to know everything that happened in the game.

[maddoctor.2738]

I think there has been a misunderstanding, especially when bringing accessibility into the discussion, which to me is irrelevant.The simple question about Raid story is if it's tied to the main story of the game. Since you can enjoy and understand the story of the game without ever touching raids this is a moot point anyway.Second question is if Raids should have important, in the lore, story or not. Here comes the "deserves" part, when epic story moments deserve something more than a solo instance, in that way it's great to resolve important subplots in Raids.Third, there is the question where to put these side stories. Everything we've done in the main story is focused on helping in the fight with the Elder Dragons, even the short break with Caudecus gave us Lazarus/Balthazar, everything in the game is tied to the ongoing conflict with the Elder Dragons. Which begs the question, how do we tell compelling side stories, I mean not every piece of lore can be a part of the Elder Dragon story but the game lacks a way of showing it.

Now I know the big argument against having important lore in the Raids, is that many won't see the story. I'll remind anyone who says that, in the old forums there was a developer post on the subject that they are working on making the Raid story more accessible. Making the story of the Raids more accessible has been an ongoing topic of discussion for a very long time, but the "Raids should be just fights without any story" isn't a very valid argument.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

It was already proved by 3rd wing that talking about side stories was a lie. Lazarus / Mursaat arc is very important for LW3 happenings and without context of raid his appearance in out of the shadows is out of nowhere. It would be better if anet created seperate story for raids that are not connected to the main game so anybody fixated about lore of the game can ignore raids. These are create for "challenge" not for immersion :)

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:It was already proved by 3rd wing that talking about side stories was a lie. Lazarus / Mursaat arc is very important for LW3 happenings and without context of raid his appearance in out of the shadows is out of nowhere. It would be better if anet created seperate story for raids that are not connected to the main game so anybody fixated about lore of the game can ignore raids. These are create for "challenge" not for immersion :)

That's silly. Was the appearance of Rytlock in the first instance of HoT out of nowhere too? In the actual Out of Shadows story you get all the information you need, in fact way more than what we got in the Raid, with all the white mantle journals you collect. That's your lore explanation about Lazarus and has nothing to do with the Raids.In fact, if the Raid actually "counted" for anything then our characters would've for sure reacted in a much different way in Out of Shadows. At least tell the team when fist meeting them at Rata Novus that we cleared a White Mantle hive and found an empty Sarcophagus, our characters would've been the ones to tell Canach that there Mantle activity "north" and not wait for him to tell us, and so on.Out of Shadows treats raiders as they've never been inside the Raid :)Story without knowing the Raid makes more sense than after finishing it. And that was a mistake that hopefully they'll fix in future Raid releases.

[flog.3485]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:It was already proved by 3rd wing that talking about side stories was a lie. Lazarus / Mursaat arc is very important for LW3 happenings and without context of raid his appearance in out of the shadows is out of nowhere. It would be better if anet created seperate story for raids that are not connected to the main game so anybody fixated about lore of the game can ignore raids. These are create for "challenge" not for immersion :)

I don't think you quite understand. The appearance of Lazarus in LW3 is "out of nowhere" as you said because that is exactly what the devs wanted to create. I mean, replay the story and look at Caudecus reaction. He is surprised and so is the main character.

Edit: you can never have challenge without some form of immersion.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@flog.3485 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:It was already proved by 3rd wing that talking about side stories was a lie. Lazarus / Mursaat arc is very important for LW3 happenings and without context of raid his appearance in out of the shadows is out of nowhere. It would be better if anet created seperate story for raids that are not connected to the main game so anybody fixated about lore of the game can ignore raids. These are create for "challenge" not for immersion :)

I don't think you quite understand. The appearance of Lazarus in LW3 is "out of nowhere" as you said because that is exactly what the devs wanted to create. I mean, replay the story and look at Caudecus reaction. He is surprised and so is the main character.

Edit: you can never have challenge without some form of immersion.

He is surprised because he wanted to sabotage Xera but outside of brief mention in Caudecus's journal the only way to learn about WM activities to resurrect Lazarus is to play raid, which is a direct opposition of devs promise to not include main story within raid. I hope they learned they should respect their community and will never repeat this mistake. We will see very soon :)

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:He is surprised because he wanted to sabotage Xera but outside of brief mention in Caudecus's journal the only way to learn about WM activities to resurrect Lazarus is to play raid, which is a direct opposition of devs promise to not include main story within raid. I hope they learned they should respect their community and will never repeat this mistake. We will see very soon :)

You probably missed thesehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Justiciar_Bauer%27s_Memoirshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Apprentice_Kasandra%27s_Diaryhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grand_Savant_Valis_the_Learned%27s_Research_Journal

Everything you need to know about the resurrection is knowledge given by the game outside of the Raids.The devs promised the Raid story won't include main story elements and so far they've kept it.

[TexZero.7910]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:It was already proved by 3rd wing that talking about side stories was a lie. Lazarus / Mursaat arc is very important for LW3 happenings and without context of raid his appearance in out of the shadows is out of nowhere. It would be better if anet created seperate story for raids that are not connected to the main game so anybody fixated about lore of the game can ignore raids. These are create for "challenge" not for immersion :)

I don't think you quite understand. The appearance of Lazarus in LW3 is "out of nowhere" as you said because that is exactly what the devs wanted to create. I mean, replay the story and look at Caudecus reaction. He is surprised and so is the main character.

Edit: you can never have challenge without some form of immersion.

He is surprised because he wanted to sabotage Xera but outside of brief mention in Caudecus's journal the only way to learn about WM activities to resurrect Lazarus is to play raid, which is a direct opposition of devs promise to not include main story within raid. I hope they learned they should respect their community and will never repeat this mistake. We will see very soon :)

You do realize nothing they did resurrected anyone right ?There was no Lazarus there. He didn't need to be resurrected and certainly wasn't going to be revived via bloodstone sacrifices. Something you'd actually understand if you ever played GW1 or did LW3 Ch8.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:That way we can enjoy the lore...

I doubt that people interested in the lore would be satisfied to get specific lore presented like it is in raids.Maybe you're right. What you don't see is that putting a specific story in raids,

however it is presented here

, locks out that story from the main audience. Because Anet's not going to do that story twice in wildly different formats.

And if you're right it also means that some stories may be presented in a way that does not do them justice. Because "epic" fights do not a good storytelling make.

@TexZero.7910 said:You do realize nothing they did resurrected anyone right ?There was no Lazarus there. He didn't need to be resurrected and certainly wasn't going to be revived via bloodstone sacrifices. Something you'd actually understand if you ever played GW1 or did LW3 Ch8.

Indeed. But they did hint at Lazarus' return here, and they introduced this character to people that did not play gw1. Both things were an important groundwork for the first chapter of LS3, and that chapter is incomplete without them.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:It was already proved by 3rd wing that talking about side stories was a lie. Lazarus / Mursaat arc is very important for LW3 happenings and without context of raid his appearance in out of the shadows is out of nowhere. It would be better if anet created seperate story for raids that are not connected to the main game so anybody fixated about lore of the game can ignore raids. These are create for "challenge" not for immersion :)

I don't think you quite understand. The appearance of Lazarus in LW3 is "out of nowhere" as you said because that is exactly what the devs wanted to create. I mean, replay the story and look at Caudecus reaction. He is surprised and so is the main character.

Edit: you can never have challenge without some form of immersion.

He is surprised because he wanted to sabotage Xera but outside of brief mention in Caudecus's journal the only way to learn about WM activities to resurrect Lazarus is to play raid, which is a direct opposition of devs promise to not include main story within raid. I hope they learned they should respect their community and will never repeat this mistake. We will see very soon :)

You do realize nothing they did resurrected anyone right ?There was no Lazarus there. He didn't need to be resurrected and certainly wasn't going to be revived via bloodstone sacrifices. Something you'd actually understand if you ever played GW1 or did LW3 Ch8.

I, as a player, understand this, but Xera and her pawns had no such knowledge. This is exactly the point here, there is no reason to put any lore in raids, because all you carre about is encounters. Raids should be arenas with bosses and mechanics, so they won't waste time to create lore for you but release some mechanical contene instead so raid community stop whining every few months they have no new raids. And so, people who are interested in lore can get lore content in more forgiving areas of the game, where social limitations of raid community is not a gate to experience story of the game :)