Mesmer changes

[Provocative.3561]

Judging by the Mesmer balance preview..

• Mirage Cloak: This trait no longer reduces the mirage's endurance in PvP and WvW.

Mirage most likely is gonna pop off. When coming from a power mesmer perspective, I always enjoyed mirage over chrono. But slowly giving mesmer options for build/specialization diversity has been so nice… when we were once restricted to basically core. 
I know all the mesmers are gonna rejoice. Mirage offers mobility, sustain and insane mind games.

• Null Field: Reduced range from 1,200 to 900.

Null field range change. I’m asking if the range can stay at 1200 in WvW, to keep the idea of it leaning towards ranged mage. Not really understanding why the range was reduced across all fields of gameplay. I understand most people combo the field with a focus curtain pull. But what about when we combo it with staff or use it on frontline Ally’s who are deep into a fight. The idea is to back line mage. Just a thought…

[ascii.1369]

1 minute ago, Blood Lord.5687 said:

Null field range change. I’m asking if the range can stay at 1200 in WvW, to keep the idea of it leaning towards ranged mage. Not really understanding why the range was reduced across all fields of gameplay. I understand most people combo the field with a focus curtain pull. But what about when we combo it with staff or use it on frontline Ally’s who are deep into a fight. The idea is to back line mage. Just a thought…

If I understood correctly that change was not just directed at Mesmer. Apparently they wanted to reduce the range of boon rips in general (they said something about necro in the stream). Don't really feel too strong about it either way...

[Exciton.8942]

I like most of the changes. But I feel they didn't do enough to improve the usability of mesmer PvE support. Both chrono and mirage support relies too much on clone count and require constant attacking.

On the bright side, the virtuoso may become playable in WvW zerg now with the on-demand unblockable change.

[Provocative.3561]

Quote

4 minutes ago, Exciton.8942 said:

 

I like most of the changes. But I feel they didn't do enough to improve the usability of mesmer PvE support. Both chrono and mirage support relies too much on clone count and require constant attacking.

 

 

 

No yeah, I was grinding for some pieces and infusions in pve awhile back. And pve support mesmer is a little lackluster at the time being. But I will say it is pretty niche, mesmer does still offer great ways to be team supporting while being a major damage dealer.  Something i was doing was using the boons given by mirage’s staff chaos vortex to allys and myself. And depending on what boss or enemy npcs we were fighting I’d change between null field, feedback, mantra of concentration and time warp. All of those literally make or break certain fights especially when your team doesn’t have a dedicated support and isn’t very good/pugs. Helped us get through those fights a lot! Hence why mages are good. Add in some concentration infusions with chaos/inspiration traitlines. It’s worked for me. 

[Cpt Crunch.7058]

But at what cost..... our focus pull just got nerfed down from 900 units to 600.

Did we get an increase to how far we can cast the pull? Maybe get those players on never before reachable ledges? Nope.

Did we get a projectile block baked into Temporal Curtain? Nope.

Oh I know! They made the phantasm not hit like a wet noodle, or have increased range so it doesn't run off and the projectile block bubble is useful, or just something other than a joke skill that I can't wait to expire to get a clone which is 1000 times more useful? They didn't do that either?!

So please @Cal Cohen.2358 what the hell am I supposed to do with this garbage tier weapon now that it's one saving grace, memes, have been f'd?

 

Edit: Okay just noticed that the nerf was only to Temporal Curtain and not the actual pull itself. Even so, focus hasn't been good for a long time other than memes so my knee-jerk reaction on how bad this weapon has become (will become) is still perfectly valid. Please do something about it. Fix the phantasm or make Temporal Curtain better somehow, or both. You can always nerf it later if it's too strong.... maybe in like 2 years time at the rate things go 🙄

Edited June 9, 2023 by Cpt Crunch.7058

[AresGuildwars.6372]

Why do they nerf Dodge for PvE as well tho? Is the second dodge in one gamemode so powerful it nerfs the dodge in all game modes? Crazy. 

[Provocative.3561]

9 minutes ago, AresGuildwars.6372 said:

Why do they nerf Dodge for PvE as well tho? Is the second dodge in one gamemode so powerful it nerfs the dodge in all game modes? Crazy. 

Oh no, mirage had both dodges in pve already. It was PvP and WvW where it had one dodge roll. Basically all games are now going to have two dodges again. Hope that clears up confusion

[AresGuildwars.6372]

4 minutes ago, Provocative.3561 said:

Oh no, mirage had both dodges in pve already. It was PvP and WvW where it had one dodge roll. Basically all games are now going to have two dodges again. Hope that clears up confusion

But why did they nerf it for pve as well then? Mirage won't be able to dodge while impaired. Hope that clears up confusion.

EDIT: 

• Mirage can no longer dodge while immobilized or under the effects of crowd control.

Edited June 9, 2023 by AresGuildwars.6372

[Exciton.8942]

18 minutes ago, AresGuildwars.6372 said:

Why do they nerf Dodge for PvE as well tho? Is the second dodge in one gamemode so powerful it nerfs the dodge in all game modes? Crazy. 

They explained in the stream that they feel it unintuitive to split that functionality. They feel it a small enough nerf to PvE that won't matter much.

[Pie.2167]

I strongly dislike all of the following:

Core - null field and temporal curtain range nerfs

Virtuoso - Bladeturn Requiem no longer blocks.

Chrono - removed alacrity and quickness from tides of time and moved it to phantasm summon 

I am not sure what role they want mesmers to fill in WvW Zerg compositions.  Most every other profession does healing, boons, DPS, and/or boon rip better.  

[phokus.8934]

Virt F5 is a bonehead change.  The whole class has ties to blocks but they get rid of blocking... big brain @Cal Cohen.2358.

Just remove the F5 or change it to something other than a small ranged aoe ability when we have psychic riposte.

Overall, I'm not happy with any of the Mesmer changes except them bringing back second dodge for Mirage.  We can all complain about how MC is not going to work when cc'd/immob but it shouldn't have done that from the beginning.

[Curunen.8729]

About kittening time.

Can we have deception cooldowns unnerfed now because the traditional use of utility slots as stunbreak etc are going to be necessary again. So I see no reason not to reduce IA, StG, Jaunt, MA by like 20%.

Still underwhelming.

I'm mildly concerned there's going to be a few bugs - I thought one issue previously was that it was difficult to get the dodge to not work while disabled, so credit to whatever solution they found.

Elusive mind though - what the kitten? How in any way is this worthy of a GM trait thematically? Put this in place of renewing oasis and make something with some imagination.  Or make IH a minor trait so we can have three completely mundane GM major traits that at least compete with each other...

You've got complete game changing clones getting mirage cloak and casting ambush, and then you've got Elusive Mind and Dune Cloak - ie convenience adept tier traits.  Absolute nonsense tbh, the entire mirage GM major traits need changing.

Chaos nerfs seem excessive.

Critical Infusion should be buffed.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Curunen.8729

[Curunen.8729]

3 hours ago, Exciton.8942 said:

They explained in the stream that they feel it unintuitive to split that functionality. They feel it a small enough nerf to PvE that won't matter much.

lol, it's an Entmoot. I reckon even ents would have reached that conclusion faster.

[Jables.4659]

I'm very happy about Mirage being returned from the abyss.  IMO not being able to dodge while being immobilized and/or CC'd is very fair. 

As far as Chrono and Core are concerned, there's a lot I dislike about this patch, but my main concerns (Clone generation, Mobility, Boons) weren't really addressed.

My suggestions:

Rework Escape Artist so that it generates a clone both when entering and when exiting stealth.  The original idea for this trait was solid, it was just very under-tuned.   

Rework Master of Manipulations so that it grants 2 seconds of Superspeed instead of Aegis. The old idea for this trait was solid, bring it back.   

Rework Mind Stab (Greatsword 3) so that it acts as a leap akin to Guardian/Ranger Great-sword leaps. 

Rework Split Second (Chronomancer f1 Shatter) so that it grants fury to self (and possibly allies) in addition to its other effects.

Rework Arcane Thievery so that it once again does not require line of sight in order to cast.  This is not an attack, and similar skills such as Necromancer's  Plague signet do not require LOS.  For a skill that is often used to get rid of conditions such as Immobilize, not being able to gain line of sight when immobilized is a huge problem. 

Rework Tides of Time (Chronomancer Shield 5) so that it is no longer a ground targeted skill. The manner in which this skill was originally cast is vastly superior to the current implementation.  I suspect that someone at Anet who plays with the "action camera" was responsible for the rework, as the new version only works properly with that setting enabled.  The skill can only be cast forward and will automatically cancel if you attempt to cast it in a different direction while moving.  The skill can only be cast in one direction, so I am genuinely baffled at the decision to allow the player to choose a different direction only to cause the skill to misfire. Seriously, bring back the old cast.  

Rework Nullfield such that the cooldown is 25 seconds in all game modes.  I had really hoped that the February 2020 patch would've taught the Anet devs that "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" does not apply to GW2 class balance.  WvW zergs were never going to stack Mesmers to Spam nullfield.  You've made the skill useless for small-scale fights. 

Stop Nerfing the Chaos traitline.  If you want there to be a legitimate choice between Chaos and Inspiration as defensive/utility traitlines, then make Inspiration more enticing as it is by far the worst trait-line available to Core Mesmer. 

[Provocative.3561]

14 minutes ago, Jables.4659 said:

I'm very happy about Mirage being returned from the abyss.  IMO not being able to dodge while being immobilized and/or CC'd is very fair. :

Rework Master of Manipulations so that it grants 2 seconds of Superspeed instead of Aegis. The old idea for this trait was solid, bring it back.   

Rework Mind Stab (Greatsword 3) so that it acts as a leap akin to Guardian/Ranger Great-sword leaps. 

Rework Split Second (Chronomancer f1 Shatter) so that it grants fury to self (and possibly allies) in addition to its other effects.

 

 

Rework Nullfield such that the cooldown is 25 seconds in all game modes.  I had really hoped that the February 2020 patch would've taught the Anet devs that "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" does not apply to GW2 class balance.  WvW zergs were never going to stack Mesmers to Spam nullfield.  You've made the skill useless for small-scale fights. 

Stop Nerfing the Chaos traitline.  If you want there to be a legitimate choice between Chaos and Inspiration as defensive/utility traitlines, then make Inspiration more enticing as it is by far the worst trait-line available to Core Mesmer. 

A lot of what you said would be interesting changes. I have gotten used to Master of manipulations giving aegis. Very neat change. It’s fine. And as far as mind stab giving a leap. I like the cripple it gives. Allows for some sticking onto target potential. Just my take on what you proposed.

 

[Curunen.8729]

I'm curious how Elusive Mind will work with fear/taunt/immob - will it prioritise clearing or dodge simply fail to function?

Will IA clear those?

I'm assuming Jaunt/blinking into a mirror should prioritise clearing those.

(It's still a stupid trait!)

 

Also they didn't seem to touch the Desert Distortion/Blurred Inscription bullkitten gimmick. This nonsense may bring about further nerfs if not changed.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

Overall I am generally okay with this patch.  Some small changes that help for Chrono and Virt, couple things I don't understand too.  The Mirage change is a pretty big deal, although it appears to be undertuned in multiple game modes now,  Still, this is a very good moment for the game; to revert a years old change that never should have happened.

I want to suggest @Cal Cohen.2358 that hyping up this change with positive energy would have been a lot more awesome.  This is a good change, one that should be celebrated.  A moment where this community could feel like the developers were connecting with them. 

I don't know what to take away from the Mesmer portion of the livestream, I didn't understand what message you were trying to get across talking about the Mirage dodge changes.  

It would have been really sweet to see you both celebrate this change instead of whatever that was.

 

[semak.7481]

The changes are beyond dumb.

Nerfing power mirage ... our monkey dont like anything related to mesmer but obsessed with buffing ele. 

Why nerfing mesmer from any source of vigor btw? Dueling - overnerfed god know when, mirage on shatter, now BD - making sure you will have roughly the same amount of evades as necromancer 🙂

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Overall I am generally okay with this patch.  Some small changes that help for Chrono and Virt, couple things I don't understand too.  The Mirage change is a pretty big deal, although it appears to be undertuned in multiple game modes now,  Still, this is a very good moment for the game; to revert a years old change that never should have happened.

I want to suggest @Cal Cohen.2358 that hyping up this change with positive energy would have been a lot more awesome.  This is a good change, one that should be celebrated.  A moment where this community could feel like the developers were connecting with them. 

I don't know what to take away from the Mesmer portion of the livestream, I didn't understand what message you were trying to get across talking about the Mirage dodge changes.  

It would have been really sweet to see you both celebrate this change instead of whatever that was.

 

these changes are dog-kitten 

[Skye.4983]

This is what I posted in the main Preview thread, just quoting myself because I am not retyping this:

All of the changes to the mirage are a straight up nerf, I am not sure what part of those changes are supposed to be about "balance". I know some people think that Mirage getting their second bar of endurance means that they can now dodge more. That just means that those people don't know how endurance recovery works. Mirages have and will continue to recover endurance at the same rate as every other profession (modified by vigor and some foods and sigil of energy), so mirages have ALWAYS have been able to dodge just as often as every other profession, they just lacked that extra bar of endurance to store any excess endurance between swapping to weapons with sigil of energy. So adding a second bar will not in any way change how often a mirage will be able to dodge, which means nerfs to condi duration caused by clones as a result of axe ambush skill is a pure nerf with no balancing behind it. Likewise, removing ability to dodge when immobilized or incapacitated is not "MIDDLE GROUND" it is a nerf, pure and simple. Anet is not actually giving mirage more dodges, because the base endurance regeneration rate has not changed and will not change.

[apharma.3741]

Community: Mesmer invuln uptime is really obnoxious and Virtuoso in particular because of blocks.
ANet: OK, let's nerf the block bladesong, make invuln spam the last defense available and call it a day.
Community: WTH??? 😕

I'm not going to get deeper but it's very clear certain classes are being favoured and having options expanded while classes they don't like are being slowly nerfed again and again.

[semak.7481]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

Community: Mesmer invuln uptime is really obnoxious and Virtuoso in particular because of blocks.
ANet: OK, let's nerf the block bladesong, make invuln spam the last defense available and call it a day.
Community: WTH??? 😕

I'm not going to get deeper but it's very clear certain classes are being favoured and having options expanded while classes they don't like are being slowly nerfed again and again.

Nerfing sh*t out of virtuoso despite it not being all that good or remotely part of the meta?

Everyone expected compensations for toning down its sustain, QoL for bladesongs and making it less clunky, less reliant on aegis + unblockable shatters combo? Instead, f5 got gutted in a way CI was.

Meanwhile not so biased dev buffs sh*t out of ele again and another round of reworks goes for ele, outdated mesmer weapons can wait another 10 years 🙂

[Justine.6351]

Mantras

Nullfield

Temporal Curtain

Why are we shitting on core mesmer stuff?

Immobilize off sword 3 when? Revert its clone spawning on target when?

Reduce the radius and target cap on shatters when?

Why do I even bother to log in once every couple months?

[apharma.3741]

57 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

Mantras

Nullfield

Temporal Curtain

Why are we shitting on core mesmer stuff?

Immobilize off sword 3 when? Revert its clone spawning on target when?

Reduce the radius and target cap on shatters when?

Why do I even bother to log in once every couple months?

I saw your post in WvW section a while back about not really playing etc so I'm going to say it now. You've been one of the most sensible people (not the only one) on this forum over the years and I still remember having that conversation about coalescence of ruin damage figures and doing the math with you when Rev came out. One day we will both just stop, to no fan fare, so I wish you all the best in life.

[Leonidrex.5649]

I just realised its a second time they nerf null field, despite it being unusable trash skill.
like come on, its dead already stop XD