Anet needs to start balancing PvP for the average player

[SlayerXX.7138]

Years of balancing around the top ten percent, listening to top players and PvP affine devs balancing the mode for themselves ruined it. It is an impossible clusterkitten. Even the quite generous padding Anet gave so the poor high rated players don't have long ques became it's own curse. Plats start getting matched with silvers. Turns out for a competitive game to stay competitive you need players. And players won't join a game if it isn't somehow balanced. Just because something is balanced for top players doesn't mean it is balanced for the general player base. People who invested so much time in PvP seem to be content with PvP withering away.

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Shush in NA.9182]

According to the skill requirement level gw2 has since years Anet balance the game for complete noobs.  

[SlayerXX.7138]

23 hours ago, CK rimeiller.5014 said:

According to the skill requirement level gw2 has since years Anet balance the game for complete noobs.  

Platin plus player who keeps playing with the same 100 people for years now I assume? I don't think you have an objective grasp how difficult the game is.

Edited June 20, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Sahne.6950]

Anet: *starts balancing for the average player*

Community: Ele is so overpowered ! Why does anet not nurf it :C

 

When you balance for the average or even lowskilled players, youll always have a build that will completly dominate in the hands of a capable player.  Finding a good middleground is extremely difficult. Youll always have someone crying.

[Flowki.7194]

The game is a huge miss match between casual things (AOE dmg/support, specs like powernecro, blade,SB being much easier to play than to counter, which attracts newbs to play them) and then the burst that vets are putting out on Scrapper, Cata, Willbender, Vidni etc. Then, for some reason, the matchmaking puts these two worlds of newbs and vets in the same ranked game.

 

 

 

 

[Khalisto.5780]

I believe he's not talking about class balance, but more about the matchmaking, if so, he's completely right, I've seen plenty times the rating gap between the best in the worst player in the match being 600, this in a 7 min q tops, average 4-5 min. Such a rap gating should be easily average 13 min, more so when we know players are forcing this to happen by q dodging to get free rating.

I've seen 2 gods of arena, a warrior main and a thief main playing for about 4 hours, thief main was streaming, so i know he wanst q dodging, but they never faced each other being 30 rating apart lol.

[SlayerXX.7138]

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

When you balance for the average or even lowskilled players, youll always have a build that will completly dominate in the hands of a capable player.  Finding a good middleground is extremely difficult.

True it is difficult. Right now it seem there is no concern for average skill level at all. Cutting down what then overperforms at high level shouldn't be that hardest thing to do.

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Anet Dev: *starts balancing for the average player himself*

Community: Ele is so overpowered ! Why does anet not nurf it :C

Hoping a class will be blessed by nepotism is not a solution. Changes like these need to affect multiple classes at ones, not only the pets class of the dev in question.

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Youll always have someone crying.

Also true. But I would appreciated the person in need of crying are the people too invested to leave. Not the potential new player the game needs to survive. Something needs to be done. Otherwise we can abolish ranked , then the last 100 people can organize their games on a discord.

Edited June 20, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Downstate.4697]

What does PvP to the average player look like to you?

[bethekey.8314]

The average PvPer backpedals, 2v0 caps points, doesn't know what rotation means, cares about dailies, and gets every build from metabattle. There's not just a skill gap between top players and average ones anymore; it's a skill chasm. Balancing around the average PvPer is to balance around the average PvEer, i.e. someone who doesn't know PvP at all.

Not that it's the average PvPer's fault or anything. Anet destroyed the tools (e.g. spectator mode) and community (e.g. continuous matches/duel servers etc.) for learning most things.

And Anet has been balancing around the average. For Engi, Mechanist exists and was dumpstered because average PvPers died to Rifle autos. The lead dev at the time is even on record trying to dumb down the class.

[SlayerXX.7138]

19 minutes ago, Downstate.4697 said:

What does PvP to the average player look like to you?

Can you be a little more specific what exactly you mean with the question?
I try to answer it in general:

Mismatch of abilities how hard they are to use and how hard they are to counter. For example: Drago hunter placing all traps + the anti dodge field very simple to use, way harder to play around.

Things that are overtly affecting people with low skill/knowledge:  Example Stealth in general is a pain point for many people which people generally are able to deal with. But things like deatheye really easy access combined with ranged combat and mesmer stealth's detargeting with clones up are a nightmare to play against if you are new to the game or not that good.

I don't want these kind of specs to get nerfed, but a powershift in a more healthy part of the kit would be good for the health of the game.

[SlayerXX.7138]

13 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

The average PvPer backpedals, 2v0 caps points, doesn't know what rotation means, cares about dailies, and gets every build from metabattle. There's not just a skill gap between top players and average ones anymore; it's a skill chasm. Balancing around the average PvPer is to balance around the average PvEer, i.e. someone who doesn't know PvP at all.

It's a game. Games are for fun. Bad player should have fun too. Fun is hard to come by if the game has a lot of BS only good players can deal with. Yeah they should accommodate bad players, that is how you get players into the game.

 

[Downstate.4697]

33 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Can you be a little more specific what exactly you mean with the question?
I try to answer it in general:

Mismatch of abilities how hard they are to use and how hard they are to counter. For example: Drago hunter placing all traps + the anti dodge field very simple to use, way harder to play around.

Things that are overtly affecting people with low skill/knowledge:  Example Stealth in general is a pain point for many people which people generally are able to deal with. But things like deatheye really easy access combined with ranged combat and mesmer stealth's detargeting with clones up are a nightmare to play against if you are new to the game or not that good.

I don't want these kind of specs to get nerfed, but a powershift in a more healthy part of the kit would be good for the health of the game.

Some things like dragons maw I can agree needs a design change. Making the combat slower and more clear is the only thing that will help new players, which anet seems to want to do less of.

[Burnfall.9573]

4 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Anet: *starts balancing for the average player*

Community: Ele is so overpowered ! Why does anet not nurf it :C

 

When you balance for the average or even lowskilled players, youll always have a build that will completly dominate in the hands of a capable player.  Finding a good middleground is extremely difficult. Youll always have someone crying.

"There's nothing wrong with players "crying' especially when the problems become a Global problem (Everyone Problem) for all players including players who are playing those Bad Design Broken Professions.

Remember, it is not the only ones who are "crying" who are raising concerns, it is the Profession players themselves who are exposing the Truth.

Anet sold everyone a Bad Design Elementalist Profession with having absolutely, no Identity; there is absolutely no "crying' in that. 

So much for a Bad Design Profession; there is no need to play any other Professions in the roster because it excel in all Professions roles and can stand on its own while being nearly immune to conditions and damages..all at the same time; for the experience players and to the non-experience player.

No players are at fault for buying a Bad Broken Faulty Design Product

Thief Profession and Stealth Mechanic, are the Perfect Example of this.

 

Finding a good middle ground balance may seem hard; Incorporating Fair Competitive Healthy Design Mindset- Philosophy in the product, will help minimize and discourage Elitism, Unfairness and Toxic behaviors from causing a negative experience to the player base.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[bethekey.8314]

27 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

It's a game. Games are for fun. Bad player should have fun too. Fun is hard to come by if the game has a lot of BS only good players can deal with. Yeah they should accommodate bad players, that is how you get players into the game.

It's a competitive*, team* game. In competitive, team games, people try to win and to win people have to be good teammates. If a "bad" player's version of fun is not spending the time to learn their class and the mode, they're a bad teammate and ruining fun for everyone else.

Part of this issue is matchmaking and population size. You accommodate "bad" players by giving them resources to learn, not by destroying complexity. 

[SlayerXX.7138]

19 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

It's a competitive*, team* game. In competitive, team games, people try to win and to win people have to be good teammates. If a "bad" player's version of fun is not spending the time to learn their class and the mode, they're a bad teammate and ruining fun for everyone else.

I can play league o legends just fine as a bad player. Riot accommodate bad players all the time. Yorick(old one) a champion that was very hard on new players to fight got nerfed to not ruin low level games. You do understand a competitive game that does balance around the average has enough player so bad players fight bad players.

Besides what exactly is your point here? We should gatekeep PvP. The GW 2 mode that is dying thanks to a lack of players?

Edited June 20, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Vancho.8750]

@SlayerXX.7138 There was a big rework for pvp around POF I think that started the large drop off it came with the new lobby the tournament system, but they touched up the ranked system where the duo queue came from, the big issue I see is that they made everyone start ranked at around 1200 rating which is Gold 2 which is terribly close in the matchmaker to both silver and platinum, before that you started at the bottom and grinded up slowly so you got the sense of progression, now you start higher and you finish the season +-100 rating around the the rating you got after the first 10 matches.
I personally think that the whole thing with the short seasons and everything around it kittened the game up.  

[bethekey.8314]

27 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Besides what exactly is your point here? We should gatekeep PvP. The GW 2 mode that is dying thanks to a lack of players?

46 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

You accommodate "bad" players by giving them resources to learn, not by destroying complexity. 

28 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

I can play league o legends just fine as a bad player. Riot accommodate bad players all the time. Yorick(old one) a champion that was very hard on new players to fight got nerfed to not ruin low level games. You do understand a competitive game that does balance around the average has enough player so bad players fight bad players.

Right, because league of legends is exactly like GW2. In funding, game direction, and playerbase. The distribution of player skill in a game like LoL is different from that of GW2. The average PvPer in GW2 isn't just mechanically lacking; they're ignorant to how PvP, as a game mode, works. You do not balance around that.

Arguing to balance around people who don't even understand the basics of the mode and combat system is extremely short-sighted. Sure, you might prevent a noob from getting stomped and rage quitting the game. Maybe they play more because of that. Only to realize that the game has no depth anymore, no where to develop, because every complexity was simplified.

[SlayerXX.7138]

 

29 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Only to realize that the game has no depth anymore, no where to develop, because every complexity was simplified.

How would it lose depth? I don't see how dragonhunter putting 4 traps down adds depth to the game. You know how a game becomes swallow if only 150 real player play it.

Edited June 20, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Orcdoc.8901]

2 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Can you be a little more specific what exactly you mean with the question?
I try to answer it in general:

Mismatch of abilities how hard they are to use and how hard they are to counter. For example: Drago hunter placing all traps + the anti dodge field very simple to use, way harder to play around.

Things that are overtly affecting people with low skill/knowledge:  Example Stealth in general is a pain point for many people which people generally are able to deal with. But things like deatheye really easy access combined with ranged combat and mesmer stealth's detargeting with clones up are a nightmare to play against if you are new to the game or not that good.

I don't want these kind of specs to get nerfed, but a powershift in a more healthy part of the kit would be good for the health of the game.

Another thing is that GW2 has a very tedious learning curve and there are no tools or systems that make it any easier/more accessible.

I've been playing PvP for a month and I'd say I get the basics of my class. But even playing my class extensively, except for a couple of skills I couldn't even tell what animation is what skill. Many animations are very dubious/unclear. For example Spectral Ring and Well of Darkness look almost the same. The Necro Staff skills are the same for all 4 Marks and Scepter + Dagger skills are generally just the Necro raising his hand.

That is for a class I have been playing. If I want to learn the animations of a different class to better understand when to dodge/cc/burst etc. I can't just look up their skills and that's it. There are combo fields and passive effects from traits so just the text on the skills themselves doesn't tell much about its power. I have to create the class, pick a meta build, read everything thoroughly and play the class for at least a month to get the basics just so I can counter it on my main. That's a lot of work considering there are 9 classes in total. So after 9 month I'd be ably to somewhat distinguish what my enemy is doing and start adjusting my plays. That's a heck of an investment just to get the basics down.

In comparison, for example in WoW you don't even need to see the animation sometimes just the sounds were so distinct you'd know exactly someone stealthed near you, a Cheap Shot/Kidney Shot or a Sap was used. You would see the hunter has used Bestial Wrath etc. and you didn't even need to play these classes to know.

I like the complexity of GW2 combat system and the dynamics. However,  the requirement that I need to play every single class to be able to read my surroundings is a bit too much to ask and there are 0 tools/systems that might help with it. It's even worse when paired with good players because I die in less than 2s in a 1vs1 and I don't even know why.

[Ragnar.4257]

1 hour ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

 

How would it lose depth? I don't see how dragonhunter putting 4 traps down adds depth to the game. You know how a game becomes swallow if only 150 real player play it.

You do know that your example of trapper-DH exactly disproves your point, right?

It's been repeatedly nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed again over the years, despite having not been competitive at top level for nearly a decade at this point. Why does it keep getting nerfed? Is it to benefit the top 100 players? No, it's to try and benefit the newbies who keep getting farmed by it. 

And yet they keep on getting farmed by it, because it turns out nerfs can't fix stupid players.

[SlayerXX.7138]

2 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

And yet they keep on getting farmed by it, because it turns out nerfs can't fix stupid players.

They should fix the anti dodge field. Damage is the secondary concern in that combo. But it is still does 15k+ aoe damage in 2 seconds you can't dodge out off. It just degenerate. Doesn't help that the anti dodge thing is barley visible. Also the power of the build is not the real problem, the problem is the mismatch between how easy it is to use vs how hard it is to counter.

Edited June 20, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Bewt.9258]

23 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

They should fix the anti dodge field. Damage is the secondary concern in that combo. But it is still does 15k+ aoe damage in 2 seconds you can't dodge out off. It just degenerate. Doesn't help that the anti dodge thing is barley visible.

Learn to play issue. If a DH is using Dragon's Maw than they aren't using Renewed Focus and therefore are significantly more vulnerable. You can dodge out of the trap on initial trigger/port/stab/burn a stunbreak out. Multiple solutions exist for you.

But this is derailing the conversation.

My hot take on how to make pvp better suited to the average player is to disable about-facing. No where in the game is this tech explained to the average player and they are at a significant disadvantage when facing a veteran. No one does this tech without using macros and it makes several builds become degenerate like engi and ele. I honestly believe that the original designers did not intend for this tech to be used in this way, and I think pvp combat would be a lot more healthy without it.

[Bazsi.2734]

This is such an insanely bad idea. The top 50 would be only like 2 classes, and anyone even remotely getting good would be immediately turned off by how terrible the balance at the top is. You can balance WvW zergs and open world PvE  around newbies who don't dodge and only spam autoattacks, but in PvP you HAVE TO do the opposite.
The whole point is to beat the enemy by playing better. If you dont balance the gamemode around"playing better", how do you expect the gamemode to be any good?

[SlayerXX.7138]

2 hours ago, Bewt.9258 said:

My hot take on how to make pvp better suited to the average player is to disable about-facing.

Literally a problem only for the top 10%. I mean I agree, but that seems so detached from the real problems of the game. Look: I normally finish the season at gold 3 if I have the time. That makes me part of the top 20%. And what people write here feels so detached from my own experience it's staggering. And there are a whole 80% who are worse then me. Really? You wholeheartedly think about face as any bearing on the accessibility for new or average player? Are you crazy? 

Edited June 20, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Sereath.1428]

Why are most people so black and white with everything?

In this case, you have to consider all levels. The low, middle and high levels of play.
Because for sure sometimes it feels like they only balance around MATs, and whatever is running rampant in ranked is left untouched.
That doesn't help at all bringing new players in. And that would be the bare minimum to do if no new content (game modes, maps) is to ever be added. Balance for all levels of play.
Is it hard? Of course, but isn't that their job?