Barraind.7324 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 On 7/12/2023 at 8:38 AM, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: It’s more like “I went for map completion on this character so that I don’t have to do it any more and I could fast travel points unlock, and now ANet is releasing a new Fractal!? What?” No, its "I did full map completion and now i cant waypoint to Orr because its been turned into a prestige zone locked behind the next expansions mastery tracks" 10 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 7 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said: I think Rubi has been following along already and can probably sum up the various points made easily enough if asked. Since they said they asked for the thread to stay open, I'm kind of assuming a mod was pretty close to closing it already (likely more than once). The arguments for players to get nothing and like it, should be succinct enough. The arguments against that approach had/have more variety (I'm obviously biased in that opinion). But still, I imagine the notes are/would be short enough. Either way, I think at this point whatever is going to happen will happen. And we'll know more in a few days. We don't know enough about it anyway, so everything is wild speculation pretty much. So yeah, we can only wait on more details and then see what is actually going to happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barraind.7324 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 On 7/12/2023 at 10:07 AM, Echo.3725 said: Read your quote again and let me know if you still think others are having a hard time reading. Its been obvious he's arguing from a completely disingenuous position for a while now. His argument has literally been "ANET said X is true, how can you possibly say X is true?". He's taking the position that something the press release said is specifically a thing they are doing is not a thing they are doing in the way they said they are doing it. Theres no real arguing with that, theres just making it look stupid to people who arent illiterate. 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idpersona.3810 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said: We don't know enough about it anyway, so everything is wild speculation pretty much. So yeah, we can only wait on more details and then see what is actually going to happen. Fair point. Initially it was worth it to voice concern. Then for a while the wild speculation was actually pretty fun and arguably productive (I mean, we did get an official response to it, so there's that). But yea, these last few...several...many pages went round in round in circles. I did very much enjoy Lan's characterization of it though. That has been my favorite post in a long while. I am really looking forward to Tuesday so I can finally decide what I'm doing with my own stuff. As well as hopefully just be excited for the upcoming expansion. Edited July 13, 2023 by idpersona.3810 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pifil.5193 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said: I feel bad for the person who has to go through all of this to sum up the feedback. It's pretty easy see the feedback if you use the forum function to ignore one or two posters. 😉 5 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swoo.5079 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, idpersona.3810 said: I am really looking forward to Tuesday so I can finally decide what I'm doing with my own stuff. As well as hopefully just be excited for the upcoming expansion. I have to say this rune thing aside, the expansion seems to be fairly decent. Will have to see execution of the new maps and metas before passing final judgement ofcourse. Also hopefuly the story goes more in the direction of adventurer just happens on stuff and disrupt it instead of all these chosen one pophecies. I really liked the show Rome, how these 2 dudes just interfered with the plans of powerful people by doing their own stuff without knowing what was happening. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swoo.5079 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, Tulki.1458 said: There is no point responding to BlaqueFyre. It's bait. The change is not hard to understand, and they're deliberately misinterpreting it. Everyone here who even thought about this change for a few seconds knows it's a loss of functionality to existing gear. It's not even a loss of functionality to legendaries. It's all runes. There's no debate - their blog post was clear, everyone already knows what relics are and what runes are losing. Arguing over reality doesn't change reality. The only thing that comes next is whether ArenaNet decides to push forward with the decision or not. From a balance point of view I'm not sure the relic system is good for Anet. Because some of the set bonuses were so strong people took the runes even if the rest of the stats were useless for their builds. Restrctions always seem to create more design space than having yout cake and eat it too. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idpersona.3810 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 32 minutes ago, Swoo.5079 said: I have to say this rune thing aside, the expansion seems to be fairly decent. Will have to see execution of the new maps and metas before passing final judgement ofcourse. I 100% agree. The rune thing is the only holdup for me being optimistically excited about the new expansion. I like a lot of the reveals about it already. I genuinely do. I just don't want to get held up having to go around re-gearing dozens of characters. I enjoyed the map design of gyala delves, if not the execution of the content. So I'm looking forward to getting to explore new areas. To getting to work on my family's skyscales and then getting to explore with them. 32 minutes ago, Swoo.5079 said: Also hopefuly the story goes more in the direction of adventurer just happens on stuff and disrupt it instead of all these chosen one pophecies. I really liked the show Rome, how these 2 dudes just interfered with the plans of powerful people by doing their own stuff without knowing what was happening. I really enjoyed Rome. And I do think that could be a nice change of pace. But....given how far our Commander has come, I don't see the writing team weaving us in that way. It could be a lot of fun though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Swoo.5079 said: Because some of the set bonuses were so strong people took the runes even if the rest of the stats were useless for their builds. Based on the rune of the theif example Anet has given in the blog post we know that not all runes are going to be available as is. It's not unreasonable to assume they've done a pass on things, especially given that some runes were very underutilized. Some need to be weaker,some need to be stronger, some were fine but had "bad" stats leading up to. Etc lots of wiggle room for change and refinement. Overall what I'm looking for is if I have a build in mind and there is no clear rune or relic that just wins selection by default. There should be a fair number to choose from each with fairly balanced pros and cons. Edited July 13, 2023 by Sigmoid.7082 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Swoo.5079 said: From a balance point of view I'm not sure the relic system is good for Anet. Because some of the set bonuses were so strong people took the runes even if the rest of the stats were useless for their builds. Restrctions always seem to create more design space than having yout cake and eat it too. Well it probabely wont be balance nightmare. They already nerfed rune of the thief from always 10% strike damage while flanking to 1-5% over 6 seconds if you can spam weapon skill 2-5 fast enough. So you can be pretty sure they will rebalance the other outliers aswell. Edited July 13, 2023 by Linken.6345 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulvar.1239 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Barraind.7324 said: No, its "I did full map completion and now i cant waypoint to Orr because its been turned into a prestige zone locked behind the next expansions mastery tracks" If they reworked Orr to be interesting with an associated mastery, it would be a blessing. I would happily have to explore it again. The more comparable thing would be Mordremoth destroying some waypoints people unlocked prior to their destruction. Edited July 13, 2023 by Kulvar.1239 1 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlPower.2476 Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 I'm doing Aurora and was thinking to make runes after that. Glad that I haven't done them yet lol 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo.3725 Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 10 hours ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: No it’s not. Lmao Superior Runes aren’t losing their 6 bonuses they are staying at 6 bonuses, your example has Armor losing 2 stats and going to 1 stat, see how that’s not the same? I can help you understand how it’s not the same if you would like. Can you explain this to us all? How are the runes losing their set bonus (read the trooper example provided in the release statement if you are still unsure as to why the bonus exists here) any different than them reducing the number of stats on a piece of armor and splitting it to another piece of equipment? This is the argument you seem to be failing to understand so let us see what mental gymnastics you perform to differentiate these two things. Armor still provides stats, new gear would provide the removed stats. No big deal same argument. Runes provide six stats including a set bonus, set bonus is being moved to relics. runes + relics = runes today. 10 hours ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: You don’t even know if the future Rune stat will be 125 that information wasn’t provide they said they would provide a stat that completes the set, not the number that it provides, so again using the Trooper Rune example the bonuses are different and you won’t be able to make the exact build using trooper runes and trooper relic…. Until we know what the actual number of the stats they will provide us. Quote (1): +25 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/b/be/Vitality.png Vitality (2): +35 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/1/12/Toughness.png Toughness (3): +50 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/b/be/Vitality.png Vitality (4): +65 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/1/12/Toughness.png Toughness (5): +100 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/b/be/Vitality.png Vitality (6): +125 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/1/12/Toughness.png Toughness; remove a condition from each affected ally after using a shout skill Quote For example, the Relic of the Trooper’s effect is identical to the previous sixth-tier Trooper rune effect: “Remove a condition from each affected ally after using a shout skill.” . ------ According to announcement the section after ";" on line (6) is moving to relics. Effectively the remove a condition from each affected ally is the impacted component. I get you being stuck on the fact that legendary runes are to replicate the functionality of superior runes. Many are stating that the relic change devalues superior runes and thus affects the efficacy of legendary runes. You are trying to state that this is simply a nerf, sure we can go down that route. Let's say they changed the +125 toughness to +80 toughness, left the remove a condition alone, and did not add the +45 toughness to anything in the game. This is a nerf. Taking the remove a condition from each affected all after using a shout and moving it to the relic is the issue. This is not a net new addition this is taking something we already had in line (6) and splitting the +125 to stay with runes and remove a condition from each affected ally after using a shout to relics. This is quite simply using current gear and stats with a combined balance change to generate content that already exists and packaging it as new while asking the players to work to gain back what they lost. We are trading a working system where we can swap our builds as needed, including with superior runes, to a system we cannot swap our builds in the game's current proposed state. We are also being asked to accept a single character to be viable next month instead of all of our level 80 characters. The last part is really the biggest issue in my opinion. I personally think that if this is the case we should all be submitting tickets to support for swapping relic effects as we can currently with runes. A design choice that requires a user to redo the heavy lifting they already did to regain what they currently have is a poor design choice. If this was the case they should be implementing a system where players are not impacted if they decide not to use it. This is a common practice in coding to make things modular instead of dependent on each other. Would personally hate if my car manufacturer pushed an update to my working vehicle that reduced its max speed and decided that I would now have to go buy additional nonrequired hardware to support my car's previous max speed just to drive up their sales numbers. Please quote your sources for refuting that runes do not currently include set bonuses and that relics are not going to be those set bonuses in the future. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 25 minutes ago, Echo.3725 said: Can you explain this to us all? How are the runes losing their set bonus (read the trooper example provided in the release statement if you are still unsure as to why the bonus exists here) any different than them reducing the number of stats on a piece of armor and splitting it to another piece of equipment? This is the argument you seem to be failing to understand so let us see what mental gymnastics you perform to differentiate these two things. Armor still provides stats, new gear would provide the removed stats. No big deal same argument. Runes provide six stats including a set bonus, set bonus is being moved to relics. runes + relics = runes today. . ------ According to announcement the section after ";" on line (6) is moving to relics. Effectively the remove a condition from each affected ally is the impacted component. I get you being stuck on the fact that legendary runes are to replicate the functionality of superior runes. Many are stating that the relic change devalues superior runes and thus affects the efficacy of legendary runes. You are trying to state that this is simply a nerf, sure we can go down that route. Let's say they changed the +125 toughness to +80 toughness, left the remove a condition alone, and did not add the +45 toughness to anything in the game. This is a nerf. Taking the remove a condition from each affected all after using a shout and moving it to the relic is the issue. This is not a net new addition this is taking something we already had in line (6) and splitting the +125 to stay with runes and remove a condition from each affected ally after using a shout to relics. This is quite simply using current gear and stats with a combined balance change to generate content that already exists and packaging it as new while asking the players to work to gain back what they lost. We are trading a working system where we can swap our builds as needed, including with superior runes, to a system we cannot swap our builds in the game's current proposed state. We are also being asked to accept a single character to be viable next month instead of all of our level 80 characters. The last part is really the biggest issue in my opinion. I personally think that if this is the case we should all be submitting tickets to support for swapping relic effects as we can currently with runes. A design choice that requires a user to redo the heavy lifting they already did to regain what they currently have is a poor design choice. If this was the case they should be implementing a system where players are not impacted if they decide not to use it. This is a common practice in coding to make things modular instead of dependent on each other. Would personally hate if my car manufacturer pushed an update to my working vehicle that reduced its max speed and decided that I would now have to go buy additional nonrequired hardware to support my car's previous max speed just to drive up their sales numbers. Please quote your sources for refuting that runes do not currently include set bonuses and that relics are not going to be those set bonuses in the future. To be fair everything is going away in the 6th tier rune bonus then will be replaced by a as of yet not know stat nr in line with the previous tier of said rune. Other then that you laid it out plainly. But it will still be countered with there are still 6 runes and they hold 6 bonuses so no functionality was lost jada jada.. 2 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotride.2187 Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 16 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said: Rubi has commented several times. It will be in the blog post on the 18th, which they are getting edited and then translated to the various languages the release such posts under. There will be compensation, and it will be directly related rather than a fluff booster, but other than that we have to wait until the 18th. Ah OK, thanks. I was expecting another announcement or a pinned post, or something that I'd be able to notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 (edited) 19 hours ago, Echo.3725 said: Can you explain this to us all? Don't bother. He flat out uses direct Anet quotes as argument for a stance that is in direct opposition to what was quoted. That suggests either massive reading comprehension issues (which i doubt is the case because those would not be limited only to very specific topics like in this case), willfull denial of reality, or arguing in bad faith. In neither of those cases further discussion with him makes any sense. For now we can only wait for the news on 18th. We'll see then if Anet will make a decision to respect veteran players (and not just current Legendary holders), or will they no longer care about keeping any pretenses and will try to push a vertical gear grind system (only barely masqueraded under a different guise) on us. Notice, that if they do decide to do so, it will have absolutely massive implications on game moving forward, much, much bigger than just a legendary Runes issue. Based on Anet's reactions so far (and their unwilingness to defuse the issue right away, playing a delaying game instead) i am afraid that the news won't be good, after all. Edited July 14, 2023 by Astralporing.1957 11 3 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkvramp.5640 Posted July 15, 2023 Share Posted July 15, 2023 So the idea that EVERYBODY SEEMS TO FORGET, is that legendary runes will still allow for Stat selection of runes if you have 6-7 runes. That 6th trait is now just being moved off to the relic. This doesn't invalidate what your legendary runes already do now, it is just taking that additional trait off to the side, to allow for the stats to now not be the limiting factor on what the 6th trait was. Is there any information on a legendary relic, no, and since Anet is stupid there probably won't be for a while. 1 1 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted July 15, 2023 Share Posted July 15, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Darkvramp.5640 said: Is there any information on a legendary relic, no, and since Anet is stupid there probably won't be for a while. There certainly will be on Tuesday, I assume. Edited July 15, 2023 by Ashantara.8731 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idpersona.3810 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 3 hours ago, Darkvramp.5640 said: So the idea that EVERYBODY SEEMS TO FORGET, is that legendary runes will still allow for Stat selection of runes if you have 6-7 runes. That 6th trait is now just being moved off to the relic. This doesn't invalidate what your legendary runes already do now, it is just taking that additional trait off to the side, to allow for the stats to now not be the limiting factor on what the 6th trait was. Nobody is forgetting that. The ability to choose from a few valid stat combinations is not worth the legendary rune crafting price. The main point was the 6th special ability that they're removing. That's where half or more of the power of a rune set comes from. 3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said: There certainly will be on Tuesday, I assume. I hope so. 7 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 (edited) On 7/13/2023 at 10:03 PM, Linken.6345 said: To be fair everything is going away in the 6th tier rune bonus then will be replaced by a as of yet not know stat nr in line with the previous tier of said rune. Other then that you laid it out plainly. But it will still be countered with there are still 6 runes and they hold 6 bonuses so no functionality was lost jada jada.. looks like people just want free things without actually putting in the work and will whine to get them, so again as I said above many time jada jada as you put it but also as I said before… I’m pretty sure everyone understands that you aren’t losing any functionality with Legendary a runes and just want free legendary items for no effort as I stated before I’m pretty sure you said and I quote: On 7/1/2023 at 2:18 PM, Linken.6345 said: That ship has sailed now. It did however show us that just whine enough to get what ever legendary in your mode you want works, so why not do that instead. Edited July 16, 2023 by BlaqueFyre.5678 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 41 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: looks like people just want free things without actually putting in the work and will whine to get them, so again as I said above many time jada jada as you put it but also as I said before… I’m pretty sure everyone understands that you aren’t losing any functionality with Legendary a runes and just want free legendary items for no effort as I stated before I’m pretty sure you said and I quote: Yes and it worked for legendary pve armor that dont rely on raids so should work for relic too then? 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorne.9857 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 3 hours ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: looks like people just want free things without actually putting in the work and will whine to get them, so again as I said above many time jada jada as you put it but also as I said before… I’m pretty sure everyone understands that you aren’t losing any functionality with Legendary a runes and just want free legendary items for no effort as I stated before Yep, you got us. The real problem facing Secrets of the Obscure is that all of us are simply so lazy and entitled that we reject the very notion of putting in the work for gear. Which is, obviously, how we got our Legendary Runes and all our other Legendary gear in the first place. 5 3 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArenaNet Staff Branded Employee.5397 Posted July 17, 2023 ArenaNet Staff Share Posted July 17, 2023 On 7/7/2023 at 2:17 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said: Hello everyone, we have been following this conversation and continuing to read your feedback since my last post, and I'm here to give you another quick update. Like other major elements of the expansion, we’re planning on providing more information on relics before launch. For relics specifically, we’re working to get that blog ready for publish on July 18—and because I know you’re wondering, that timeline is so we can write it, review it for accuracy, edit it, and translate it into all supported languages. We know that the legendary rune compensation is of great interest to you, and we'll be sharing more of our plans about that in the blog post. While that's still coming, I want to clarify a bit about my note on compensation. This will not be an unrelated item; it’s going to be part of the relics system. We’ll have more details in that upcoming blog post. Finally, I want to thank you all for continuing to have this conversation and share your feedback with us. It’s been helpful and we all appreciate it. Hello friends, I'm here with an update that the blog is coming on the 20th. As we said in Rubi's original post, it takes us time to lock text down and get it through our publishing pipeline. Please accept my apologies for the delay from our communicated schedule. 27 10 11 8 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idpersona.3810 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Branded Employee.5397 said: Hello friends, I'm here with an update that the blog is coming on the 20th. As we said in Rubi's original post, it takes us time to lock text down and get it through our publishing pipeline. Please accept my apologies for the delay from our communicated schedule. Yay! 2 more days [in addition to what we expected] of the thrilling discourse that are the 2 main threads. 🙃 Sarcasm aside, thank you for the update and trying to manage expectations on this. (I'm patiently awaiting an update with all the mats in hand to craft 6 legendary runes.) Edited July 17, 2023 by idpersona.3810 added clafication since I worded it oddly 3 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 22 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said: Yay! 2 more days of the thrilling discourse that are the 2 main threads. 🙃 Sarcasm aside, thank you for the update and trying to manage expectations on this. (I'm patiently awaiting an update with all the mats in hand to craft 6 legendary runes.) 3 days aint it the 17th now 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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