Mob difficulty core tyria vs expansions

[Shadowmoon.7986]

If core tyria is too easy, move on to harder content. Core is designed for people in mismatched gear with no rune bonuses for them to learn the mechanics of the game. Of course if you are using full ascended with a complete gear setx running meta builds it will be much easier. You have to remember, people with mismatched gear with no bonuses do 1/10 the damage of those in full gear running meta builds.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Dante.1508 said:

Yes tell that to 500 raptors spiking you at once and 3-4 frogs immune to all your attacks while CCing you constantly putting your skills on cooldown.

Pocket raptors do attack all at the same time and the total damage they deal depends on the number of raptors present.  This is useful information.  It means that you can afford to expend more defensive resources early knowing that you won't need them once you've killed off some of the raptors.  So, for example, if you aren't sure of exactly when to dodge you could just double-dodge to be sure you avoid the initial attack, then kill off some raptors before they can attack again.  The second attack shouldn't be much of a threat since you should have killed some or all of the raptors by that point.  Alternatively, you could just bomb them with area effects upon engaging and kill some of them before they even attack.  That's quicker and doesn't waste any defensive resources.

Or, you know, just run around like a chicken with your head cut off until you get downed.  That seems to be a favored strategy by some. 🙄

 

 

[Passerbye.6291]

30 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

If core tyria is too easy, move on to harder content. Core is designed for people in mismatched gear with no rune bonuses for them to learn the mechanics of the game. Of course if you are using full ascended with a complete gear setx running meta builds it will be much easier. You have to remember, people with mismatched gear with no bonuses do 1/10 the damage of those in full gear running meta builds.

I'm not saying early maps shouldn't be easy, but there should be some gradual progress, because as it stands, I really don't see core maps teaching mechanics to players, so much as everything other than champions keeling over when the wind blows in their direction. If core maps prepared the players sufficiently in terms of dealing with mechanics, we wouldn't be posting on this thread in the first place. To give an example, you can be a revenant with impossible odds up and auto attack things to death until you hit level cap with litte regard for anything going on. I really don't see how this teaches anything meaningful. This is also partly why people approach optimizing DPS or doing any kind of a rotation with adversity, because barely anything lasts long enough for you to go past an opener, let alone do a full rotation of abilities. You can easily get to level cap without ever having to learn your skills, let alone use them efficiently.
Note: I have never once leveled a character with twinked gear, I just wear whatever drops. I do have a leveling exotic weapon, but I have yet to manually level a character since I obtained that.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[Randulf.7614]

Whilst I don't outright dismiss the concerns of difficulty and am not particularly against any (minor) retuning of mobs on an 8 year old piece of content, DryTop and Silverwastes both acclimatise players into HoT and teach some early mechanics. And they aren’t gated behind a cost since they are free maps, even if season 2 itself is paid content. So it isn’t entirely true the game doesn’t have a gradual learning curve.

The issue is whether the curve should take into account that players skip so much early content. I’m on the fence on that one.

 

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 7/8/2023 at 8:55 AM, Sewedir.3027 said:

Heya,

So yesterday I went to Heart of Thorns expansions areas and i got totally obliterated by the mobs there.

So I have no problems with mobs at core Tyria when I went to the HoT area I noticed a huge difficulty spike to the mobs' damage etc.

Is it something natural when it comes to expansions?

Thanks for the info,

Cheers,

 

Yes, players asked for a high increase in challenge in HoT and Anet provided. To me its still the best of the expansions and I am hoping they brought back the challenge that HoT provided in the new expansion. Had a newer guildmate retry GW2 recently they just got to HoT. They were pleasantly surprised by the increase in challenge and had been asking where was this gameplay while they worked thru core. 

[Mukizo.1269]

I love that HoT actually have some real PvE. Core Tyria is literally a painting where the stroke of your brush obliterates anything and everything. HoT has a very distinctive and unique feel to it. In my opinion enemies should be way harder to fight, not easier.

[Beleron.9347]

What often surprises me when talk of expansion mobs comes up is that apparently players are actually engaging with them at all. There's usually little loot or xp to be gained, and usually they can simply be bypassed. Granted, this must have been quite a bit harder back before mounts, especially those with flying, but now I simply go straight past most such mobs.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

I'm not saying early maps shouldn't be easy, but there should be some gradual progress, because as it stands, I really don't see core maps teaching mechanics to players, so much as everything other than champions keeling over when the wind blows in their direction. If core maps prepared the players sufficiently in terms of dealing with mechanics, we wouldn't be posting on this thread in the first place.

The problem is not really combat mechanics. The main issue is the build and gearing system. And it's designed in such a way that it cannot be gradually taught by the game. In fact, it was designed around an assumption that all the work with learning it will be pushed solely on player's shoulders.

[Passerbye.6291]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The problem is not really combat mechanics. The main issue is the build and gearing system. And it's designed in such a way that it cannot be gradually taught by the game. In fact, it was designed around an assumption that all the work with learning it will be pushed solely on player's shoulders.

I mean, reading tooltips isn't that difficult. I can understand being overwhelmed by boons and conditions early on, but anyone willing to educate themselves can easily find all the information they need on skill and trait builds. 
If you wanted to take an easier way, there are multiple sites where you can just copy a preset build, I really don't think this is where the game needs to hold hands.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

I mean, reading tooltips isn't that difficult. I can understand being overwhelmed by boons and conditions early on, but anyone willing to educate themselves can easily find all the information they need on skill and trait builds. 
If you wanted to take an easier way, there are multiple sites where you can just copy a preset build, I really don't think this is where the game needs to hold hands.

And yet that's where the main issue with "skill" gap in this game lies. Not with skill, but knowledge. And not of base mechanics, but of gearing and build system. You may not understand how it's possible, because to you it should be trivial issue to overcome, but the reality is what it is. And as long as it will remain that way, any dreams of increasing OW difficulty will remain a dream, because if put in reality would push away from the game most of its players.

[Passerbye.6291]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And yet that's where the main issue with "skill" gap in this game lies. Not with skill, but knowledge. And not of base mechanics, but of gearing and build system. You may not understand how it's possible, because to you it should be trivial issue to overcome, but the reality is what it is. And as long as it will remain that way, any dreams of increasing OW difficulty will remain a dream, because if put in reality would push away from the game most of its players.

An argument can also be made that it is exactly because OW is this easy that noone is pushed to explore whether they have better skills or traits available to them though. I get that some people just want to sit back and enjoy a game, but I don't think anyone is beyond being able to read skill tooltips. 

[Sobx.1758]

36 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The main issue is the build and gearing system. And it's designed in such a way that it cannot be gradually taught by the game.

It can be and it is. If anything, the issue here is with some people blindly clicking through the windows popping up ingame without reading them at all and then claiming that nothing was explained to them. Note that understanding and reasonably using these ingame systems isn't -and never was- the equivalent of people somehow fully optimizing their builds.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

19 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

An argument can also be made that it is exactly because OW is this easy that noone is pushed to explore whether they have better skills or traits available to them though.

Sure, and argument for this can be made, but so far all the attempts resulted in players just stopping engaging with said content. And as for people "exploring" the buid/gearing system, that's not very likely to happen. Even most of hardcore players haven't been able to learn those systems completely on their own. Huge majority of players would definitely need to get help from third party resources. And most casuals (in any game) do not even think of looking for those.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And yet that's where the main issue with "skill" gap in this game lies. Not with skill, but knowledge. And not of base mechanics, but of gearing and build system. You may not understand how it's possible, because to you it should be trivial issue to overcome, but the reality is what it is. And as long as it will remain that way, any dreams of increasing OW difficulty will remain a dream, because if put in reality would push away from the game most of its players.

It's both having a good build and knowing how to use it properly.  Or else anyone could take a snowcrows build and hit benchmarks and anyone could take a Hizen build and solo strikes, fractals, and metas.

In any event, is it really an issue?  I think that's a matter of perspective, the crux of which is the assumption that it's possible to design a game for everyone.  In my opinion, that's a fool's errand.  They could do worse than designing another HoT and I don't particularly care that not everyone would appreciate it because they get frustrated the moment there isn't a flashing neon sign to direct them and the mobs don't just roll over and die when you look at them with the build you designed by selecting the icons that looked pretty to you.

[kharmin.7683]

That's a gross over-simplification of casual players, no?

[Smoky.5348]

Looks like our issue is that the two sides debating here are from different worlds. The world I'm in, I got my head handed to me in a Core Tyra map and I knew I needed to examine my build to figure out what I was doing wrong. Obviously, I figured that out. Fast forward awhile and I then wonder how I can make expansion maps less of a hassle. I look more closely how stats work, I deck myself out in full exotics with matching relics, I spec into more damage-oriented traits...and I can't notice a difference. Enemies don't seem to die faster, but I guess I don't hurt as much...

That's the difference between our worlds; I feel like I put in effort to improve my build, but the difference is intangible in expansions. Meanwhile, @AliamRationem.5172's video shows a melee fighter attacking while invulnerable, and any damage that does get taken is somehow very minimal despite being a light armor class. Stuff like that is mythical to me. Across my attempts in Warrior and Mesmer, nothing I've tried comes close to that level. Is it because I'm picking all the wrong classes? Is it because I'm too much of a support-oriented player? I just can't tell, and I don't know if I ever can.

I do appreciate Aliam trying to share what works, it does offer some insight. But, there's too much disconnect between what one side is capable of and what the other can manage. So then, the current debate: what can be done about it? Leave players who don't get it in the dust, or take away the high risk in open world HoT? As far as I can tell, it's not a gap that can be bridged...

[SlayerXX.7138]

2 hours ago, Smoky.5348 said:

So then, the current debate: what can be done about it? Leave players who don't get it in the dust, or take away the high risk in open world HoT? As far as I can tell, it's not a gap that can be bridged...

Keep balancing the game around People like you and throw player like me or Aliam a bone. HoT Hero Points are a good example: A group challenge that can be soloed by good players. Dangerous areas like mini dungeon you need to be extra prepared or should walk in with other people, would be an idea. Another thing to lift casuals up could be doing the same that lol does, giving you a selection of sample builds in Game.

2 hours ago, Smoky.5348 said:

That's the difference between our worlds; I feel like I put in effort to improve my build, but the difference is intangible in expansions. Meanwhile, @AliamRationem.5172's video shows a melee fighter attacking while invulnerable, and any damage that does get taken is somehow very minimal despite being a light armor class. Stuff like that is mythical to me. Across my attempts in Warrior and Mesmer, nothing I've tried comes close to that level. Is it because I'm picking all the wrong classes? Is it because I'm too much of a support-oriented player? I just can't tell, and I don't know if I ever can.

A big part is action per minutes(APM), having all abilities on key binds, build fundamentals and knowing the best options. Another part is the GW 2 combat system is very multiplicative. So every "lacking" aspect balloons in a big difference. You have exotic berserker instead of ascended? That is just a 5% difference, but precision increases the worth of Power then ferocity increases that even further. Boons are overpowered if you manage to get a lot of solo might, quickness, protection and so on that is worth a lot.
Care to share one of your builds like this?: Low APM core warrior build
 

[AliamRationem.5172]

59 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Keep balancing the game around People like you and throw player like me or Aliam a bone. HoT Hero Points are a good example: A group challenge that can be soloed by good players. Dangerous areas like mini dungeon you need to be extra prepared or should walk in with other people, would be an idea. Another thing to lift casuals up could be doing the same that lol does, giving you a selection of sample builds in Game.

A big part is action per minutes(APM), having all abilities on key binds, build fundamentals and knowing the best options. Another part is the GW 2 combat system is very multiplicative. So every "lacking" aspect balloons in a big difference. You have exotic berserker instead of ascended? That is just a 5% difference, but precision increases the worth of Power then ferocity increases that even further. Boons are overpowered if you manage to get a lot of solo might, quickness, protection and so on that is worth a lot.
Care to share one of your builds like this?: Low APM core warrior build
 

If we're suggesting builds, here's a classic easy sustain build for mesmer.  It has poor burst and low damage overall compared to something like the weaver build I linked earlier, but it's very easy to survive with because you have so many boons, evades, teleports, long range, and constant clone generation for distraction.  In addition, the most critical skill for offense, defense, and utility is mirage cloak which simply requires that you dodge and push 1 a lot.  Easy!

 

[Smoky.5348]

On 7/11/2023 at 8:42 PM, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Care to share one of your builds like this?: Low APM core warrior build

I suppose I could, if just to show my unusual build tendencies. I don't feel right without a way to heal allies and dish out hard CC, and I'm almost always using ranged until it's specifically time to "burn", as the pros say. Here's what l'm doing for Warrior. I got him to a comfortable spot, I just don't know how to push him further. It's what I started with and what cemented my expectations for what I should be able to handle.

And, this is Mesmer. This...is the one I'm not getting used to. I like the weapon skills, but now I've lost what to do for Utility. ANET changed how Mantras work, so I can't be Wannabe Heal-Shout Mesmer anymore—which was probably silly to begin with—but none of the other core skills seem to gel with me. I was thinking Chronomancer might work out, but I never liked AoEs you need to hop inside of. Mirage sounded like it was all about clones, which felt generally unreliable for avoiding aggro, but I didn't know Mirage Cloak was something that replaced dodge. Maybe I should've invested in that? Anyway, because I don't know what niche to fill with Mesmer, I didn't invest in any gear yet.

 

[SlayerXX.7138]

4 hours ago, Smoky.5348 said:

I suppose I could, if just to show my unusual build tendencies. I don't feel right without a way to heal allies and dish out hard CC, and I'm almost always using ranged until it's specifically time to "burn", as the pros say. Here's what l'm doing for Warrior. I got him to a comfortable spot, I just don't know how to push him further. It's what I started with and what cemented my expectations for what I should be able to handle.

Oh there is a lot "sub optimal" in your build. A lot of build fundamental the game expect you to know are not met. I hope you have accessories equipped and just forgot to put them in the editor?
Vitality is a stat you shouldn't stack more then you need. On Warrior who has so much base HP you probably need almost no extra HP. Power damage is balanced around having 3 Damage modifier: Power, Crit chance and Crit damage. They are multiplicative so they game punishes you hard for investing in defensive stats like you did. If your damage is low mobs have more chance to kill you:). Elite specs are just more powerful then Core. Rifle is sadly just a bad weapon. The game expects you to rely on active defenses like Dodge, Blocks, Stunbreak and Condition cleanse.

One step would be replacing some gear with berserkers so mobs have less time to kill you. As much as you are comfortable of course. Berserker gear is cheap, Devona's armor even has the same runes you are currently using, so you can just buy a couple pieces and test it out. If you struggle surviving, it is a good idea to keybind your abilities if you have not already. A mouse with 2 extra buttons does wonders, because with shift modifier that are 4 comfortable buttons to reach quickly. Having Dodge, Blocks, Stunbreak and Condition cleanse on good keybinds does wonder for surviving in Tyria. If you like CC and Warrior, Mace and Hammer are great weapons. Combined with Strength and defensive trainline you are rewarded with quickness and stability for disabling something. Thank to recent buffs Hammer is one of the best dps weapons and mace does pretty okay damage too. Elites are just OP, so getting them helps.

If you want real easy mode not matter the Profession or time/gold investment it would be smart to switch to a condi profession/build and get celestial. Like Herald. But that cost a lot in equipment and Getting Hero Points take a lot of time if you struggle in OW. Condi is normally better in OW, because instead of 3 stats, Condi just needs Condition damage and Expertise for damage, so you are less punished for investing in defensive stats.

[Ashen.2907]

On 7/9/2023 at 12:48 PM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Disagree that this is poor design (except for the smokescale blind field).  I could describe multiple methods for handling all of these enemies, but it's not going to convince you.  Just wanted to say I love HoT design all-around and wish they still designed maps that way.

Even the smokescale field is easily overcome. You just need to take a couple of steps back so he moves out of his field. Its just another mob intended to encourage players to engage with one of GW2's best features (IMO)....mobility in combat.

The game has its issues (a lot of them) but providing an opportunity for the players to use the abilities given to their characters in a meaningful way is not one of them IMO. I would love to see a few more foes with boons worth building to strip.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Even the smokescale field is easily overcome. You just need to take a couple of steps back so he moves out of his field. Its just another mob intended to encourage players to engage with one of GW2's best features (IMO)....mobility in combat.

The game has its issues (a lot of them) but providing an opportunity for the players to use the abilities given to their characters in a meaningful way is not one of them IMO. I would love to see a few more foes with boons worth building to strip.

That'd be great if it actually worked.  Unfortunately, you can see a perfect example of it not working at about 15 seconds into the video I linked.  You can see the smokescale is clearly outside of the field, yet my attacks continue to miss for several seconds.  That's why they make the "poor design" list for me.  If this behavior were reliably interactable by players, it'd be fine.

[mercury ranique.2170]

did you play the re-release of living world season one (have to admit I did not. I played the original season one and only parts of the re-release), but season one and two where intended to be in between core tyria and HoT. So the leap forward if you go directly from core to HoT is a bit steep.

[Vayne.8563]

On 7/9/2023 at 4:30 AM, Khisanth.2948 said:

Do people just skip LS2/LS2 maps?

Sure, because if they don't own LS 2 and just bought expansions, some people think they have all the content and go to the next thing you have unlocked.  Nothing guides you to Dry Top or the Silverwastes, except the first part of HoT and then you're through it and into HoT.   How would you have any idea that that's just another another zone if you don't research it?

[Ashen.2907]

19 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

That'd be great if it actually worked.  Unfortunately, you can see a perfect example of it not working at about 15 seconds into the video I linked.  You can see the smokescale is clearly outside of the field, yet my attacks continue to miss for several seconds.  That's why they make the "poor design" list for me.  If this behavior were reliably interactable by players, it'd be fine.

Weird, it has never not worked for me. Maybe I am just fated to be a legendary smokescale slayer 😃