End game pve is incredibly gatekept and lacks player population

[Sobx.1758]

8 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I have suggested this before but alot of this would be solved with the ability to que for this content. 

How would that be effectively any different from making a squad accepting everyone through lfg?

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

How would that be effectively any different from making a squad accepting everyone through lfg?

There would be a lot less wait time, and it would allow you to potentially zone or do other things.
Right now, you have to wait around for everyone to join. You can run around a little, but most people expect you to be in the Raid/Strike.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Linken.6345]

21 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

There would be a lot less wait time, and it would allow you to potentially zone or do other things.
Right now, you have to wait around for everyone to join. You can run around a little, but most people expect you to be in the Raid/Strike.

What really?

The only place I cant be while waiting for 10 people is spvp since tht kick me out of squad.

[CraftyK.9062]

14 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Then you explicitly didn't even look at the comments of the Mathias video.

People acting like playing the druid without Alac = terrible gameplay and being super bad influences on the future of the game...

While I think the comments on those videos are largely overblown, I don't think it's entirely unwarranted to complain about "major streamer plays a non-meta playstyle and some people end up being inspired to do something similar and now there's less alacs on the LFG". Most groups didn't take a sole healer (which in case of this individual is kinda working out like a heal scourge) and boons/boon healers are not the most common build people play in PUGs especially.

 

Going for a PUG run will usually result in an experience less optimal than a static/guild/organized/whatever run, and as long as everyone in the PUG consents to some builds, it should be okay. The Commander could always either not let the person playing sole heal druid in, or the druid making their own squad does not necessarily funnel people into their squad. Though I think it is also worth pointing out that if some people try that playstyle, they might not all do as well as the commented individual.

15 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

...as if there aren't plenty of other builds that also provide Alac.

There indeed are, but not all of them are meta healers/healers people play often. Taking an AlacDPS is a possibility but also a whole different question

[Kalavier.1097]

7 hours ago, CraftyK.9062 said:

While I think the comments on those videos are largely overblown, I don't think it's entirely unwarranted to complain about "major streamer plays a non-meta playstyle and some people end up being inspired to do something similar and now there's less alacs on the LFG". Most groups didn't take a sole healer (which in case of this individual is kinda working out like a heal scourge) and boons/boon healers are not the most common build people play in PUGs especially.

 

Going for a PUG run will usually result in an experience less optimal than a static/guild/organized/whatever run, and as long as everyone in the PUG consents to some builds, it should be okay. The Commander could always either not let the person playing sole heal druid in, or the druid making their own squad does not necessarily funnel people into their squad. Though I think it is also worth pointing out that if some people try that playstyle, they might not all do as well as the commented individual.

There indeed are, but not all of them are meta healers/healers people play often. Taking an AlacDPS is a possibility but also a whole different question

Point being, even if you aren't solo healing, It's not going to kill you to have a druid healer (no alac, but all the other buffs), AND an alac DPS.

It's a purely created problem solely for druid that I keep seeing over and over. As if it's completely impossible to have the druid being doing all those buffs and healing, and simply having one DPS player in the party/subgroup be alac dps. It's not going to kill your DPS, and it's not going to kill your team.

[Nephalem.8921]

Pure healers have no place in this game. scourge is was not an exception to that rule since it brought busted revive potential that should have never been in the game.

Any streamer advocating for pure healers is just wrong. Especially if that streamer is a healer main which are wrong most of the time anyways.

[Kozumi.5816]

37 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

scourge is was not an exception to that rule since it brought busted revive potential that should have never been in the game.

Sure but now scourge is an awful dps alac or awful heal ala spec. A unique spec was better.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

54 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Sure but now scourge is an awful dps alac or awful heal ala spec. A unique spec was better.

after the upcoming buffs, alacheal scourge will be just fine. i've already been playing it for a while and all it really lacks is access to stability. the raw healing is low but the barrier gives allies plenty of time to heal up even from just regeneration alone, and the revive pull still works okay .

 

i don't understand these obsessions with "unique designs". do you really enjoy being excluded from groups so much?

Edited July 15, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Essence Snow.3194]

Imo they should have a debuff/training mode for players to learn mechanics. A simple debuff that either lowers rewards or removes them completely, that makes the content less punishing would lower the barrier to entry. Lowering the barrier to entry increases population, which keeps content from dying.

If lesser rewards is the option, they would have to be balanced ofc so as to not have players prefer it to harder modes.

[Kozumi.5816]

1 hour ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

alacheal scourge will be just fine

Barriers are not healing, it does 0 HPS.

This is not a healer. It's a bad healer and bad DPS that gives alac.

[Kalavier.1097]

3 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Pure healers have no place in this game. scourge is was not an exception to that rule since it brought busted revive potential that should have never been in the game.

Any streamer advocating for pure healers is just wrong. Especially if that streamer is a healer main which are wrong most of the time anyways.

Ignoring all the other boons provided. Also saying that Alac or quickness is the only reason for supports to exist. 

Anet made Alac healer druid genuinely not fun/annoying to play for people. And they still enjoy that spot.

As long as boon-DPS builds exist, this makes the issue null and entirely void to kitten and moan about "How dare the druid player provide heals" I far as I can tell, druids didn't do alac until 2022. And yet people act now as if the druid has to have that.

The meta changes. Things change. 

[Linken.6345]

40 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Ignoring all the other boons provided. Also saying that Alac or quickness is the only reason for supports to exist. 

Anet made Alac healer druid genuinely not fun/annoying to play for people. And they still enjoy that spot.

As long as boon-DPS builds exist, this makes the issue null and entirely void to kitten and moan about "How dare the druid player provide heals" I far as I can tell, druids didn't do alac until 2022. And yet people act now as if the druid has to have that.

The meta changes. Things change. 

Well if you want alac dps people then you can go with firebrand quick heal or herald quick heal instead.

[vares.8457]

3 hours ago, Essence Snow.3194 said:

Imo they should have a debuff/training mode for players to learn mechanics. A simple debuff that either lowers rewards or removes them completely, that makes the content less punishing would lower the barrier to entry. Lowering the barrier to entry increases population, which keeps content from dying.

If lesser rewards is the option, they would have to be balanced ofc so as to not have players prefer it to harder modes.

We have the emboldened mode. 

[Kalavier.1097]

44 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Well if you want alac dps people then you can go with firebrand quick heal or herald quick heal instead.

Completely missing the point, but okay. And in a way, completely proving the point.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[Sobx.1758]

On 7/15/2023 at 4:31 AM, Mell.4873 said:

There would be a lot less wait time, and it would allow you to potentially zone or do other things.
Right now, you have to wait around for everyone to join. You can run around a little, but most people expect you to be in the Raid/Strike.

But the number of potential players you can be matched with remains the same, so I wouldn't say your theory is correct?
"Zoning" can be added to the current system -and it is, except just from specific zones. Looks like this one isn't somehow a limitation due to how the groupfinder works, but more of a developer's choice (which amounts to: "to get a pop up, be in relevant hub areas"). From my experience, most people (to put it lightly) do not expect you to camp in raid/strike encounter area before you fill the squad. I'm not sure I had a single person tell me that I need to come in just to sit there while we're half of the squad or something. If I join in early, it's because I don't want to do anything else.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Sobx.1758
it -> the groupfinder

[rotten.9753]

17 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Sure but now scourge is an awful dps alac or awful heal ala spec. A unique spec was better.

In 2 days it's going to do 40k+ DPS while being one of the easiest DPS builds in the game.

[rotten.9753]

14 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Ignoring all the other boons provided. Also saying that Alac or quickness is the only reason for supports to exist. 

Anet made Alac healer druid genuinely not fun/annoying to play for people. And they still enjoy that spot.

As long as boon-DPS builds exist, this makes the issue null and entirely void to kitten and moan about "How dare the druid player provide heals" I far as I can tell, druids didn't do alac until 2022. And yet people act now as if the druid has to have that.

The meta changes. Things change. 

Before 2022 Druid had to be paired up with Chrono who could supply both Quickness and Alacrity. Sure, you can take a pure healer and 2 BoonDPS, nothing really stops you from doing that. There are a few builds that improve healing, Tempest and Druid comes to mind. Such team comp should do around 93% of the meta team comp, so I don't really see any problems.

[Aylpse.6280]

I tried to get into PvE multiple times, as a support mech, running the meta build... no one is running it. I got into a single normal mode strike mission, that was it. Every group for raids, fractals or anything else that would get me more ascended weapons or armor wanted people who already cleared. I tried discords, lfg, map chat, everything. I already have a hard enough time reaching out and talking to people, it's basically hopeless.

[vares.8457]

1 hour ago, Aylpse.6280 said:

I tried to get into PvE multiple times, as a support mech, running the meta build... no one is running it. I got into a single normal mode strike mission, that was it. Every group for raids, fractals or anything else that would get me more ascended weapons or armor wanted people who already cleared. I tried discords, lfg, map chat, everything. I already have a hard enough time reaching out and talking to people, it's basically hopeless.

Did you try to find a guild and do the content with guild mates? It’s often the best way to learn new content. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by vares.8457

[Kozumi.5816]

21 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Ignoring all the other boons provided. Also saying that Alac or quickness is the only reason for supports to exist. 

The other boons do not matter, because the other good alac/quickness builds brings all of them on top of alac/quickness.

Druid was a dead class since early PoF.

If a support does not bring alac/quickness they are a useless character..

[Izzy.2951]

On 7/14/2023 at 6:06 PM, Leger.3724 said:

Comments like this amaze me.

Tens of millions of people play other games competitively and non-competitively. 

Guild Wars 2 has an end game pve scene that's probably the smallest of any MMO worth mentioning. Smaller than New World. Smaller than Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft, Runescape both OSRS and RS3.

It's not that people don't want to put an effort into something. It's that Guild Wars 2 has an awful combat system for end game content. And people vote with their feet.

If your system is not worth learning it's not that "people lack the drive". It's that your system is terrible.

11 years later Arena Net is still unsure of where to take things because they decided sometime back in 2008-2010 that they did not want monks, a traditional heal/boon class, in their game and since 2014 they've been putting in the same mechanics monks did but making it unnecessarily stupid and non-obvious so they can still claim "we don't have monks and the holy trinity in our game". And then there's the fact the game does literally no teaching of how important boons are in the game. The story doesn't teach it. The open world doesn't teach it. The dungeons don't teach it because the content is dead and nobody does it. The early fractals don't teach it.

It's a bad combat system all because they didn't want monks in their game. People put in effort into something they think they will enjoy. End game Guild Wars PvE and PvP content is not it. I knew a ton of hard core pvp players in Guild Wars 1 in high ranking guilds. They all moved to League of Legends. Seems to be a lot of people with drive playing that game. The people who enjoyed end game PvE started GW2 and most are gone for FFXIV or no game at all. Again, they don't lack drive. 

I really hope Arena Net is not receiving feedback like yours because it's extremely poor feedback. Guild Wars 2 is not some hidden gem of end game content. It's everything wrong with action combat in an MMO. When the disaster that is New World has a more active end game scene... it's time to rethink how you did action combat for your next MMO whether that's Guild Wars 3 or something else.

It's incredible and it's not just you - a bunch of people in this thread seem to take the approach of "well kitten you OP things are fine". No. No they are not fine. There is a reason they transition from raids to strikes to strikes based on the storymode content. There is a reason you don't need to do a strike for the turtle mount. End game content in this game is not fine. Outside of a tiny vocal group including you - everyone else does end game content in other games, they do pvp content in other games. They actively choose to shut down Guild Wars 2 and start up another game.

 

It may hurt a lot of people, but this comment is so right and true. Just watch the history of gw2 since before launch to nowadays.

"11 years later Arena Net is still unsure of where to take things because they decided sometime back in 2008-2010 that they did not want monks, a traditional heal/boon class, in their game and since 2014 they've been putting in the same mechanics monks did but making it unnecessarily stupid and non-obvious so they can still claim "we don't have monks and the holy trinity in our game". And then there's the fact the game does literally no teaching of how important boons are in the game. The story doesn't teach it. The open world doesn't teach it. The dungeons don't teach it because the content is dead and nobody does it. The early fractals don't teach it."

"It's a bad combat system all because they didn't want monks in their game. People put in effort into something they think they will enjoy. End game Guild Wars PvE and PvP content is not it. I knew a ton of hard core pvp players in Guild Wars 1 in high ranking guilds. They all moved to League of Legends. Seems to be a lot of people with drive playing that game. The people who enjoyed end game PvE started GW2 and most are gone for FFXIV or no game at all. Again, they don't lack drive. "

"Outside of a tiny vocal group including you - everyone else does end game content in other games, they do pvp content in other games. They actively choose to shut down Guild Wars 2 and start up another game."

Edited July 16, 2023 by Izzy.2951

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

3 hours ago, Aylpse.6280 said:

I tried to get into PvE multiple times, as a support mech, running the meta build... no one is running it. I got into a single normal mode strike mission, that was it. Every group for raids, fractals or anything else that would get me more ascended weapons or armor wanted people who already cleared. I tried discords, lfg, map chat, everything. I already have a hard enough time reaching out and talking to people, it's basically hopeless.

Have you tried joining groups not asking for experienced people? Right now I can find 6 groups not asking for any KP or experience and 2 asking for experience only(no KP).

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, Aylpse.6280 said:

I tried to get into PvE multiple times, as a support mech, running the meta build... no one is running it. I got into a single normal mode strike mission, that was it. Every group for raids, fractals or anything else that would get me more ascended weapons or armor wanted people who already cleared. I tried discords, lfg, map chat, everything. I already have a hard enough time reaching out and talking to people, it's basically hopeless.

Are you on eu or na? 

And what do you mean that every group including fractals wanted people who already cleared? Are you trying to skip even t1 fractals or something?

[Mell.4873]

On 7/16/2023 at 7:29 AM, Sobx.1758 said:

But the number of potential players you can be matched with remains the same, so I wouldn't say your theory is correct?
"Zoning" can be added to the current system -and it is, except just from specific zones. Looks like this one isn't somehow a limitation due to how the groupfinder works, but more of a developer's choice (which amounts to: "to get a pop up, be in relevant hub areas"). From my experience, most people (to put it lightly) do not expect you to camp in raid/strike encounter area before you fill the squad. I'm not sure I had a single person tell me that I need to come in just to sit there while we're half of the squad or something. If I join in early, it's because I don't want to do anything else.

I find it when people leave, or we can't find/fill the last role. A new LFG system probably wouldn't fix that, but a streamlined experience would definitely help players get into the content.

I mean the GW2 player base has come up with 101 reasons why we don't need the new LFG system but it's a bit mind boggling those other games function just fine with a queuing system but GW2 can't. I guess the lack of roles has impacted that but right now we are on fast track to able to service a trinity like system especially with Strikes.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Natasjie.9245]

Unofrtunately, the game lacks the minimum require tools to allow players to access this content. So now it's all territory of closed static or training groups with a hardcore mindset...they will all say things like "If you're not ready to dedicate 6 hours per week at hour X:Y on monday, hour Z:W on sunday...it means YOU don't really WANT to learn"...like it's normal not having a life to train a boss...